Old lady can't leave flat because of fire door

IamtheWalrus

I volunteer as a befriender for an immobile lady. She lives on the 17th floor. I take her out in a wheel chair. She is able to walk but is very weak.

She tells me she would be able to leave her flat by herself if it wasn't for fire door. She finds it to difficult to pull open. She is basically a prisoner in her home.

She asked the people who run the complex to put in a automatic door but they have refused (it's sheltered accommodation).

Is there any way I could enable her to open this door? Or there any devices to do this?

MrWalsh

Who runs the sheltered accommodation?

This is a health and safety issue. If there was a fire or other emergency then this lady would be trapped in the building.

Contact local councillers and the public health nurse?

IamtheWalrus

MrWalsh wrote: »

Who runs the sheltered accommodation?

This is a health and safety issue. If there was a fire or other emergency then this lady would be trapped in the building.

Contact local councillers and the public health nurse?

Interesting.. I never thought of that. Surely there is a evacuation plan if the block is for old people?

looksee

Heavens! 17th floor and presumably lifts, how is a frail person supposed to walk down 17 levels of stairs in the event of an emergency?

kirving

Electric actuators are available which open the door on the push of a switch, I've them in nursing homes a couple of times.

MrWalsh

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Interesting.. I never thought of that. Surely there is a evacuation plan if the block is for old people?

Dont be afraid to make a lot of noise over this, you could threaten media exposure over the health and safety aspect. They are hoping that a blank refusal would make you go away but if you start contacting local councillers etc they will have to respond.

the_syco

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

(it's sheltered accommodation)

MrWalsh wrote: »

you could threaten media exposure

Threatening sheltered accommodation with exposure may not be a good idea.

MrWalsh

the_syco wrote: »

Threatening sheltered accommodation with exposure may not be a good idea.

Why not? They've got to cater to their residents needs in the short term if they need to bring the building up to standards.

Judging by the pic posted it's not an old building so sorting the doors should be a minor issue.

I'm not sure what fears you have re exposing sheltered accommodation in the media?

the_syco

MrWalsh wrote: »

I'm not sure what fears you have re exposing sheltered accommodation in the media?

I think I may have read sheltered accommodation as protected accommodation (whose location would be kept hidden), as opposed sheltered for old people. My bad.

MrWalsh

the_syco wrote: »

I think I may have read sheltered accommodation as protected accommodation (whose location would be kept hidden), as opposed sheltered for old people. My bad.

Oh I get you. Aye, that would be one to avoid exposing!

In the OPs case I think the threat coupled with some local politicians getting involved might help.

IamtheWalrus

Thanks all. So there isn't a 'workaround' for this in the meantime? A way for her to get the door open by her self. The door isn't that heavy.

the_syco

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Thanks all. So there isn't a 'workaround' for this in the meantime? A way for her to get the door open by her self. The door isn't that heavy.

The parts that keep the door closed are what the door finds "heavy", I'm thinking. If they were adjusted to not give more resistance, they may be easier to open, but at the same time it may make the doors non-compliant with fire safety, as I'm guessing they have to be kept closed?

IamtheWalrus

the_syco wrote: »

The parts that keep the door closed are what the door finds "heavy", I'm thinking. If they were adjusted to not give more resistance, they may be easier to open, but at the same time it may make the doors non-compliant with fire safety, as I'm guessing they have to be kept closed?

Yea, I think I should go down the getting a button route first in case I am liable if a fire happens.

the_syco

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Yea, I think I should go down the getting a button route first in case I am liable if a fire happens.

If going the button route, check if there's grants available to make access easier for wheelchair users; cheaper for the people who run the complex, and it'll allow the old lady to get past the door.

RainyDay

Where are you based? I'm guessing you are outside of Ireland, because there aren't many complexes with sheltered accomodation on the 17th floor? Most boards.ie users are in Ireland, so they may not be familiar with laws and regulations wherever you are.

The broad principles are likely to be the same though. The usual solution for heavy fire doors are magentic locks which hold the doors open most of the time, and will automatically release the door in case of fire. This fixes the problem of normal access, but leaves the problem of emergency evacuation. Could she open the doors with a major effort if she had to in case of fire? If not, she definitely needs a power assisted door.

looksee

Since there is a wheelchair sign on the door beyond, there should be a wheelchair button on the doors anyway?

Agreed Rainyday about it not being in Ireland, though there is a door I go through somewhere - a shop I think - on a regular basis, and it is ridiculously difficult to open and no alternative ways of opening it.

CiDeRmAn

If the structure is designed for use as sheltered accommodation for people who require support for everyday living that need will have to be represented in the buildings fire safety statement, and this document will be reviewed annually by a designated fire officer.
If there is a mobility issue in the day to day it almost certainly also has an impact on the ability to evacuate the building in the case of an emergency, as such the door will then have to be opened by residents when an emergency is indicated and if the door cannot, then it will be in breach of the structures own health and safety requirements.
As such, you may need to find out who is reviewing these safety issues, this will be someone independent and works for the fire services in Ireland and this is a function of local government and, as such, the relevant numbers can be gotten from your local council offices.
You can then call the fire service who can direct you to the appointed individual and you can raise the door matter as a safety issue in the case of a fire.

This may not work, it is possible that as long as the door is functional and unlocked that it, as a fire door, fulfils it's function and so there is nothing they can do.
However, if it is in some kind of breach, the company that run the building will be required by law to bring the doors to the relevant standard, and if this standard means door opening mechanisms then that will have to be implemented or the operators of the building may face court and fines.


Here's a page on the problem at hand,link though it is UK based, all of the EU is operating to the same set of best practice standards afaik.
The key sentence is that “Managers should ensure that a fire door self-closing device is not set at too strong a pressure and they may need to adjust it, but it must also be remembered that such doors are designed to hold back smoke and fire to protect all the people in a building and facilitate their escape.”

IamtheWalrus

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

If the structure is designed for use as sheltered accommodation for people who require support for everyday living that need will have to be represented in the buildings fire safety statement, and this document will be reviewed annually by a designated fire officer.
If there is a mobility issue in the day to day it almost certainly also has an impact on the ability to evacuate the building in the case of an emergency, as such the door will then have to be opened by residents when an emergency is indicated and if the door cannot, then it will be in breach of the structures own health and safety requirements.
As such, you may need to find out who is reviewing these safety issues, this will be someone independent and works for the fire services in Ireland and this is a function of local government and, as such, the relevant numbers can be gotten from your local council offices.
You can then call the fire service who can direct you to the appointed individual and you can raise the door matter as a safety issue in the case of a fire.

This may not work, it is possible that as long as the door is functional and unlocked that it, as a fire door, fulfils it's function and so there is nothing they can do.
However, if it is in some kind of breach, the company that run the building will be required by law to bring the doors to the relevant standard, and if this standard means door opening mechanisms then that will have to be implemented or the operators of the building may face court and fines.


Here's a page on the problem at hand,link though it is UK based, all of the EU is operating to the same set of best practice standards afaik.
The key sentence is that “Managers should ensure that a fire door self-closing device is not set at too strong a pressure and they may need to adjust it, but it must also be remembered that such doors are designed to hold back smoke and fire to protect all the people in a building and facilitate their escape.”

Thanks a lot. I have been told by the council to contact the occupational therapist that deals with the building and I'll call them tomorrow.

I'll get back to you all with my findings.

L1011

RainyDay wrote: »

Where are you based? I'm guessing you are outside of Ireland, because there aren't many complexes with sheltered accomodation on the 17th floor?

The tallest residential building in the country is 17 storeys.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark at it being the UK - they have disabled access rules there that might cover this.

IamtheWalrus

L1011 wrote: »

The tallest residential building in the country is 17 storeys.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark at it being the UK - they have disabled access rules there that might cover this.

Correct.

I have called the council and have been passed round so many people but no one will take responsibility. I have a new lead that I'll try tomorrow.

Do stroke victims ever regain power in their bodies?

Mod: the discussion about stroke victims has been moved to a new thread.

IamtheWalrus

Today I visited my little lady and she had her fire door fitted with a button. Was great to see. I'll now teach her how to make her way out the door and down the stairs. It took a few favours (including contact with the local councillor) but we got it done. Thanks for all the advice.

Now I plan to get her fixed up with a laptop, internet, printer and scanner.

CiDeRmAn

I'm delighted to hear it all worked out.
Well done.