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Equality of marriage and love

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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,331 Mod ✭✭✭✭ smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    Which set of parents should get priority for the adoption of a baby of African ethnicity, in this country. A wealthy white gay couple, or a poorer African couple who have expressed mildly homophobic views in the presence of the social worker? Which pair would you put higher on the waiting list?

    Why does the ethnicity of the baby, the ethnicity of the adoptive parents or the sexual orientation of the adoptive parents even figure in this question?

    When adopting children, you first of all get thoroughly screened to see if you're suitable, where provision of a nurturing stable home environment for the child is the primary criterion. Parent ethnicity or sexual orientation is not one, nor should it be. Nor is there any attempt to match racial ethnicity of parents and children. Being openly homophobic could well be a rejection criteria as it is not something that is socially acceptable nor considered healthy for raising kids. Even the very traditional religious schools are on-board with this in today's Ireland. Homophobia is a rather dingy and unpleasant aspect of our recent history, which like racism still lingers to some extent in some elderly and more hard line conservative types but is thankfully in rapid decline.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,264 ✭✭✭ nozzferrahhtoo


    recedite wrote: »
    My meaning is fairly basic; In most countries (certainly in western countries) there are fewer babies available for adoption than there are prospective couples and single parents wanting to adopt them.

    And I would absolutely advocate for SSM couples to be given priority over single parents.

    It is pretty clear you have ZERO evidence to offer that specifically 2 parents and specifically one of each gender is actually an "ideal". The evidence and studies actually go exactly against you on this fantasy.

    But the evidence that children of SINGLE parents fare worse is much more robust. And absolutely against your narrative would an SSM couple be much more ideal than a single parent for adoption in general.
    recedite wrote: »
    Somebody has to go lower down on the list, whether that be due to socio-economic situation, age, ethnicity, sexuality, singleness, or whatever.

    When placing a child these agencies should be considering all candidates for their SPECIFIC ability to be the best ones to take that child. They should not be pushed up or down any list solely because of their gender or sexuality. They should be evaluated solely on their ability to care for that child.

    So lets place them on their list by actually relevant criteria shall we, and leave the irrelevancy of their gender and sexuality entirely out of it and these nonsense assumptions that one man and one woman specifically is going to be the better choice for no reason other than fantasy.
    recedite wrote: »
    Which pair would you put higher on the waiting list?

    Not a question we should answer as put before us in your contrived example. Much more than the paltry quantity of information should be evaluated. MUCH more. And of all the information I would want to see evaluated in doing this the fact one couple is gay and the other hetero should be at the bottom of the list if even there on such a list at all. Unless you can show, as you have consistently failed to do at this point, that it actually a relevant measure in the success outcome of that childs upbringing it should be treated as the irrelevancy it is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭ recedite


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Strangely enough their ethnicity wouldn't be the deciding factor for me as I also don't believe the colour of a person's skin determines their ability to parent.
    smacl wrote: »
    Why does the ethnicity of the baby, the ethnicity of the adoptive parents or the sexual orientation of the adoptive parents even figure in this question?
    Not a question we should answer as put before us in your contrived example.
    As expected, you would all take the politically correct option, disregarding ethnicity and sexual preferences, as indeed would most social workers because it covers their own ass.


    But by maintaining blindness towards colour and sexuality, while downgrading suitability of the African couple on the basis of socio-economic status and "homophobic" attitudes, you would effectively be giving preference to the wealthy gay couple.



    Yet this is exactly what the black guy in the link was complaining about, because it results in the child being disconnected from their natural heritage, and possibly experiencing some confusion around their own identity growing up. As he says, they may not even realise what they have missed out on until much later in life.


  • Registered Users Posts: 35,659 ✭✭✭✭ ohnonotgmail


    recedite wrote: »
    As expected, you would all take the politically correct option, disregarding ethnicity and sexual preferences, as indeed would most social workers because it covers their own ass.


    But by maintaining blindness towards colour and sexuality, while downgrading suitability of the African couple on the basis of socio-economic status and "homophobic" attitudes, you would effectively be giving preference to the wealthy gay couple.



    Yet this is exactly what the black guy in the link was complaining about, because it results in the child being disconnected from their natural heritage, and possibly experiencing some confusion around their own identity growing up. As he says, they may not even realise what they have missed out on until much later in life.

    The consideration when placing a child with adoptive parents is the best interests of the child. The interests of the prospective adopters are secondary, as they should be.

    So now that you are back can you explain why ssm are less than ideal for raising children? You have provided with studies that show this is not the case so presumably you have some actual facts to back up your point?


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,755 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    recedite wrote: »
    Yet this is exactly what the black guy in the link was complaining about, because it results in the child being disconnected from their natural heritage, and possibly experiencing some confusion around their own identity growing up. As he says, they may not even realise what they have missed out on until much later in life.
    So any evidence that this happens? That this happens at a rate that's an issue? That this results in a bad upbringing?

    And how exactly is this relevant to gay marriage?

    By your own argument, you should object to interracial marriage as well.

    You are still dodging questions, so your silly little gotcha moment isn't as impressive as you think.

    Are you going to be addressing my previous points? If not, please at least say so and perhaps explain why. Ignoring them doesn't reflect well on you or your position.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,331 Mod ✭✭✭✭ smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    As expected, you would all take the politically correct option, disregarding ethnicity and sexual preferences, as indeed would most social workers because it covers their own ass.


    But by maintaining blindness towards colour and sexuality, while downgrading suitability of the African couple on the basis of socio-economic status and "homophobic" attitudes, you would effectively be giving preference to the wealthy gay couple.

    Absolute rubbish. None of what you quoted suggests downgrading anyone on the basis of their socio-economic status or ethnicity, merely their homophobia. Being openly homophobic is generally considered to be hateful in Western Europe, and in turn would go against any would be adoptive parents. Similarly to openly discriminate against someone based on their ethnicity or indeed religious beliefs. Tradition is no excuse for bigotry either and attitudes to race, religion and sexual orientation in our recent history are nothing to be proud of.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,264 ✭✭✭ nozzferrahhtoo


    recedite wrote: »
    As expected, you would all take the politically correct option

    You can keep your words out of my mouth thanks. I never said which option I would pick. What I said was that WHATEVER option I would pick, it would not be on the basis of the information you have so far supplied.

    Are you so desperate to push your narrative here that you will wholesale pretend I say something I did not even remotely say??? For shame sir, for shame. Says a lot.

    Thanks for generally ignoring my posts though, real big of you. Says a lot too.

    And no nothing about my position is because it is "politically correct" as what you ignored and edited out of my post is that....
    recedite wrote: »
    disregarding ethnicity and sexual preferences

    .... political correctness has NOTHING to do with my position. What I said, and you ignored, was that in adoption we should place the children using measures that are actually relevant. I do not care if relevant measures are politically correct or MASSIVELY politically incorrect. If data shows them to be RELEVANT measures, then bloody well use them no matter who it pisses off. If they are not relevant at all, such as the sexual preferences of the parent, then leave them out entirely. Again regardless of who it pisses off.

    So you can pretend, to suit your contrived little narrative, which couple I would "give preference to" in your scenario. But the fact is I gave preference to NEITHER. What I said was that whichever couple should be given preference, and it could be either of the two, would be something I would evaluate on information you simply did not supply.

    Which I am sure everyone except you will notice is MUCH different to what you are shoving into my mouth on my behalf.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭ recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    Absolute rubbish. None of what you quoted suggests downgrading anyone on the basis of their socio-economic status or ethnicity, merely their homophobia. Being openly homophobic is generally considered to be hateful in Western Europe, and in turn would go against any would be adoptive parents..
    Maybe you don't know many Africans, but they are generally in the range of "mildly homophobic" to "vehemently homophobic".

    Financial ability to pay for a child also comes into these things, both directly and indirectly (as in, general situation and ability to provide child with their own bedroom)
    So while ostensibly being the great egalitarian, you have actually discriminated against one ethnic group and "stolen" a baby from that ethnic group.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭ recedite


    You can keep your words out of my mouth thanks. I never said which option I would pick. What I said was that WHATEVER option I would pick, it would not be on the basis of the information you have so far supplied.

    Are you so desperate to push your narrative here that you will wholesale pretend I say something I did not even remotely say??? For shame sir, for shame. Says a lot.

    Thanks for generally ignoring my posts though, real big of you. Says a lot too.
    I'm not ignoring you, its just that I'm struggling to pin down anything definite from anything you have said. Therefore I can't respond.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭ .......


    recedite wrote: »
    Maybe you don't know many Africans, but they are generally in the range of "mildly homophobic" to "vehemently homophobic".

    Financial ability to pay for a child also comes into these things, both directly and indirectly (as in, general situation and ability to provide child with their own bedroom)
    So while ostensibly being the great egalitarian, you have actually discriminated against one ethnic group and "stolen" a baby from that ethnic group.

    Gordon Bennett - do you have to practice hard for these kinds of mental gymnastics?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,755 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    recedite wrote: »
    Maybe you don't know many Africans, but they are generally in the range of "mildly homophobic" to "vehemently homophobic".
    This is a pretty racist statement that we can assume you're not going to back up with anything besides your own authority.

    Like I said, and you never responded to... Lot of hate around.
    recedite wrote: »
    So while ostensibly being the great egalitarian, you have actually discriminated against one ethnic group and "stolen" a baby from that ethnic group.
    Lol, the gays are stealing babies!:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭ recedite


    The consideration when placing a child with adoptive parents is the best interests of the child. The interests of the prospective adopters are secondary, as they should be.
    I agree.
    So now that you are back can you explain why ssm are less than ideal for raising children?
    Well no, I didn't say that. The logical implication of what I'm saying is that, all other things being equal, it is slightly better to raise hetero children in a hetero family, African children in an African family (even if homophobic)


    The flip side of that is that a homosexual would have been better off in a gay family, although their sexuality can only be determined in hindsight as an adult. I'm not in favour of promoting homosexuality to children, and I am vehemently against any kind of surgical/chemical gender reassignment in anyone before adulthood.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭ recedite


    ....... wrote: »
    Gordon Bennett - do you have to practice hard for these kinds of mental gymnastics?
    I'm not the one doing the mental gymnastics here. If you know Africans, you know I am right.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,755 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    recedite wrote: »
    The logical implication of what I'm saying is that, all other things being equal, it is slightly better to raise hetero children in a hetero family, African children in an African family (even if homophobic)

    ...

    The flip side of that is that a homosexual would have been better off in a gay family, although their sexuality can only be determined in hindsight as an adult.
    Except, you have ZERO evidence for this. You have been shown a pile of evidence that proves your claim incorrect.
    You ignored this evidence.
    You have no basis for your claims beyond your own faulty, clearly ill-informed and biased "logic."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭ recedite


    King Mob wrote: »
    Like I said, and you never responded to... Lot of hate around.

    Lol, the gays are stealing babies!:rolleyes:
    I'm alluding to the "stolen" generations of Native Americans and Australians, who were adopted out to parents who could provide better and more "correct" homes to them than their own ethnic group. At least, that was the theory anyway.
    Of course, correctness in those days was slightly different to correctness these days, but the arrogance was the same.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,264 ✭✭✭ nozzferrahhtoo


    recedite wrote: »
    I'm not ignoring you, its just that I'm struggling to pin down anything definite from anything you have said. Therefore I can't respond.

    Your failing not mine. Though I made some very DEFINITE requests for substantiation to your claims which I am sure were perfectly understandable to you.

    So I somewhat suspect that is a dodge and you do not actually mean it. Though maybe if you were spending more time reading what I wrote instead of inventing things I never said to put into my mouth, you would do better.

    I can dumb it down for you though in bite size point format:

    1) When comparing "ideal" parenting configurations there is good reason to not compare single parenting with any other configuration being discussed here.
    2) I think the measures we should use to evaluate adoption should be relevant, whether they are politically correct or not.
    3) There is nothing supporting your nonsense claims that:

    A) the parents sexuality or gender is relevant. You just imagine it is.
    B) one male and one female is the optimal or "ideal" configuration. You just imagine it is.
    C) specifically two parents is an "ideal" configuration. You just imagine it is.
    D) children "need to be able to pick up life experience and family values from their parents". That is just one of a numerous POSSIBLE sources. Any combination of which will do.
    E) children how are heterosexual "are better off being reared in a heterosexual family unit". You just imagine they are.

    4) I believe looking at what parents are actually doing the rearing is from the outset the exact wrong approach anyway. So the reason you fail so bad, is you are starting from a bad foundation.

    Any of that you needed dumbed down further, or you have any questions about, just ask rather than dodge. This being, you know, a conversation and all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,755 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    recedite wrote: »
    I'm alluding to the "stolen" generations of Native Americans and Australians, who were adopted out to parents who could provide better and more "correct" homes to them than their own ethnic group. At least, that was the theory anyway.
    Of course, correctness in those days was slightly different to correctness these days, but the arrogance was the same.
    Lol, what a ridiculous strawman.

    Gay marriage is the same as forced adoptions of native peoples.
    FFS.

    Any evidence to back up your racist comment?
    Any evidence for any of your claims?

    Why do you constantly ignore requests for such and think no one will notice?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭ .......


    recedite wrote: »
    I'm not the one doing the mental gymnastics here. If you know Africans, you know I am right.

    I know a racist stereotype when I see one.

    And I know an unsubstantiated claim when I see one too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,264 ✭✭✭ nozzferrahhtoo


    recedite wrote: »
    Well no, I didn't say that.

    Well yes, frankly you did. Your exact words were "The family union, with a mother and a father, still being the most ideal situation in which to rear a child, regardless of the many other (less ideal) kinds of situation out there."

    You very much DID say what you are now pretending you did not. You claimed one was the "most ideal" and others are "less ideal". So why deny it now just because you have failed to substantiate it when called on it???
    recedite wrote: »
    The logical implication of what I'm saying is that, all other things being equal, it is slightly better to raise hetero children in a hetero family

    THAT you are saying that is not in question. It is the BASIS for asserting it that is being called into question by other users. There is absolutely no reason to think this is the "ideal" at all. Even "slightly" so. But even if it was it must be so "slightly" that it is very much irrelevant because "all other things being equal" is something not something that ever happens.

    So in some weird fantasy world existing in YOUR head perhaps there is an "ideal" in play. But certainly in the real one the rest of us are living in, your narrative is the stuff of fantasy only.
    recedite wrote: »
    The flip side of that is that a homosexual would have been better off in a gay family

    Again, why? you keep saying this stuff but have yet to offer, despite being asked NUMEROUS times now, a single reason why you are saying it.
    recedite wrote: »
    I'm not in favour of promoting homosexuality to children

    What does that even mean exactly? Both in general and specifically in the context of the topic we are currently discussing. What does "promoting" it actually consist of in your mind? Is being brought up by gay parents somehow "promoting" homosexuality to your mind? When I hear this oft thrown around phrase "promoting homosexuality" I get visions of people going around trying to turn straight people gay somehow. What is it you think they are promoting exactly and to what end???


  • Registered Users Posts: 35,659 ✭✭✭✭ ohnonotgmail


    recedite wrote: »
    I agree.
    Well no, I didn't say that. The logical implication of what I'm saying is that, all other things being equal, it is slightly better to raise hetero children in a hetero family, African children in an African family (even if homophobic)

    and what do you have to support that? That is what you have been asked for now several times. All you are doing now is soapboxing.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,331 Mod ✭✭✭✭ smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    Maybe you don't know many Africans, but they are generally in the range of "mildly homophobic" to "vehemently homophobic".

    Financial ability to pay for a child also comes into these things, both directly and indirectly (as in, general situation and ability to provide child with their own bedroom)
    So while ostensibly being the great egalitarian, you have actually discriminated against one ethnic group and "stolen" a baby from that ethnic group.
    recedite wrote: »
    I'm alluding to the "stolen" generations of Native Americans and Australians, who were adopted out to parents who could provide better and more "correct" homes to them than their own ethnic group.

    Remind us again which part of Africa these Native American and Australian babies were stolen from :pac:

    Seriously, this is one of the most confused, ill-informed and unsupported rants I've seen on the A&A since the creationists and various other flat earthers abandoned this remote corner of boards.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,032 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Bannasidhe


    recedite wrote: »
    Blah blah blah I'm not in favour of homosexuality blah blah blah.

    So you prefer a segregated world then?

    Only straight white babies for straight white people.
    Only straight black African babies for straight black Africans.

    Who can Mixed Race couples adopt?
    What about white Africans? Can they adopt black Africans??? :confused:

    Does my Korean friend have to go back to Korea now as she was adopted by a white couple and raised in Ireland?? That's going to be some culture shock for her as she was only 2 months old and now she's 50


  • Administrators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,562 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭ oscarBravo


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Who can Mixed Race couples adopt?

    What makes you think he's OK with mixed race couples in the first place?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,331 Mod ✭✭✭✭ smacl


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    What about white Africans? Can they adopt black Africans??? :confused:

    What about gay African kids, they clearly need to be taken from their "vehemently homophobic" parents and placed with gay couples. But then those gay couples wouldn't be African so that wouldn't work. Also it would be stealing children, so we don't want that either. Problems, problems... :pac:


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,032 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Bannasidhe


    smacl wrote: »
    What about gay African kids, they clearly need to be taken from their "vehemently homophobic" parents and placed with gay couples. But then those gay couples wouldn't be African so that wouldn't work. Also it would be stealing children, so we don't want that either. Problems, problems... :pac:

    I know many gay Africans.
    They encompass a wide variety of skin tones from Doris Day White to Bessie Smith Black.

    Perhaps some sort of skin tone chart should be drawn up so gay African children and be matched to the correctly hued adoptive gay parents.

    What if they were born in Africa but grew up in Ireland?!?!? :eek:
    What if they were born in Ireland to African parents??!! :eek:

    WHAT IF THEY ARE AFRO-CARIBBEAN?!?!?!?! :eek::eek::eek:

    It's a minefield.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,032 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Bannasidhe


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    What makes you think he's OK with mixed race couples in the first place?

    Which, do you think, he would find more ideal?

    A mixed race Hetero couple or a white Gay couple?


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,077 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cabaal


    recedite wrote: »
    I agree.
    Well no, I didn't say that. The logical implication of what I'm saying is that, all other things being equal, it is slightly better to raise hetero children in a hetero family, African children in an African family (even if homophobic)


    The flip side of that is that a homosexual would have been better off in a gay family, although their sexuality can only be determined in hindsight as an adult. I'm not in favour of promoting homosexuality to children, and I am vehemently against any kind of surgical/chemical gender reassignment in anyone before adulthood.

    So applying your nonsense logic that has nothing to back it up,
    A gay child should be raised by a gay family.

    So, in the interest of the child being better off (using your baseless claim). Would you propose gay children are taken off of heterosexual couples? After all, its in the interest of the child right?
    :rolleyes::rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭ pauldla


    Cabaal wrote: »
    So applying your nonsense logic that has nothing to back it up,
    A gay child should be raised by a gay family.

    So, in the interest of the child being better off (using your baseless claim). Would you propose gay children are taken off of heterosexual couples? After all, its in the interest of the child right?
    :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    And what if one of the partners isn't gay but did kinda experiment once for a little while in their early twenties and kinda liked it but didn't really pursue it after that...?

    Asking for a friend.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,331 Mod ✭✭✭✭ smacl


    pauldla wrote: »
    And what if one of the partners isn't gay but did kinda experiment once for a little while in their early twenties and kinda liked it but didn't really pursue it after that...?

    Asking for a friend.

    Ten hail Marys and a cold shower for you(r friend) to purge this taint ;)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭ .......


    pauldla wrote: »
    And what if one of the partners isn't gay but did kinda experiment once for a little while in their early twenties and kinda liked it but didn't really pursue it after that...?

    Asking for a friend.

    Depends, a male or female friend? Is there pics?


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