I admire your principles but....

AskMyChocolate

.....y'see capitalism won, or were you out the day we did that?

So, AHers, what principles have you had to ditch on your way to middle-aged pragmatism?

Y'see Cornflakes get soggy if you don't eat them while they're crunchy.

Choco

kneemos

If it moves it dies.I let one live,now it's back to kill me.

evolving_doors

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

.....y'see capitalism won, or were you out the day we did that?

So, AHers, what principles have you had to ditch on your way to middle-aged pragmatism?

Y'see Cornflakes get soggy if you don't eat them while they're crunchy.

Choco

Seeing as how we privatised healthy national assets and nationalised the banks Id say capitalism only 'won' because the sugar daddy of the state coughed up.

Principles Ive had to ditch..... forget about merit, the way to succeed in Ireland is shmooooozing and lots of it.

Fukuyama

Quite a few things. I'm only 23 but a lot of my 'ideals' I had at 18 have vanished after a few years of working, travel, college and some experiences.

1. Yeah sure, corporations and governments do some ****ty things for profit. But they also do a lot for our prosperity and security. The general online "outrage" about discrimination, freedom of speech etc... that's spouted on boards is often wearisome. Go to ISIS controlled territory, China, Thailand or Russia and see what actually not having freedom of speech or basic human rights is about.

2. I also used to believe that there was hope for all and goodness in everyone. But a few years in the real world put a stop to those notions. A lot of people will die unhappy and if you try to help them you'll get sucked into their crock of ****. Avoid the unhappy, the unlucky and those with severe substance abuse issues. I'll always help someone who is at least trying to better themselves though and making a genuine effort. *

3. Meritocracies don't exist the way I thought they did. Talent and ability mean **** all most of the time. What matters is execution. I've managed to keep jobs by never being late, being on hand to solve problems. The only ideas managers want to hear is ideas that will boost their performance and make them look good in front of their boss so I only run those "up the flag pole" and keep the rest for myself. 99% of the time you just work and make sure none of your **** manages to roll up hill. The employees who are constantly running around the office trying to change systems or practices forget they they have real work to do and managers are too busy to care about their idea that will save a few milliseconds of time.

4. "Everyone's good at something". Most people are, but some people just really aren't. The world needs ditch diggers, I'm afraid.

5. That we can "solve Africa's problems". The whole continent is so ****ed. In Ireland we think we had our problems. We had two rival "tribes" up North who eventually found some understanding of peace. They were western educated and despite atrocities, their brand of terror at least complied with some unspoken code of civility.

In Africa, single countries often have HUNDREDS of tribes, hundreds of languages, old religions, new religions, radical Islam and a **** tonne of natural resources to fight over. Every single peace agreement signed only pisses off the warlord six tribes over so now you've got a new civil war/ coup / genocide brewing. The west is often blamed for creating the problems in Africa. I'm not saying that we helped by colonizing but the place is a wasteland destined to exist in a constant state of war. There are some lovely rain forests, villages and towns. But the only regions of peace that exist in Africa are the ones heavily financed and protected by the West (mainly France).









* I exclude things like depression from this. I'm moreso referring to people who just want to be the victim. The kind of people who do nothing with themselves all day but act like the world owes them a living and a life.

AskMyChocolate

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Seeing as how we privatised healthy national assets and nationalised the banks Id say capitalism only 'won' because the sugar daddy of the state coughed up.

Principles Ive had to ditch..... forget about merit, the way to succeed in Ireland is shmooooozing and lots of it.

They wouldn't know the difference between principle and privilege if you poked them in the eye with it.

Although, y'gotta love our national broadcaster fawning over Peter Sutherland and giving him a platform to pontificate over other people's sense of entitlement, given the fact that he was the principal author of the all-pervading,bonus-culture attitude in the financial services sector that almost reduced this country to penury.

I wonder does he go home every night and make sure to water his own hubris in case it mightn't flourish.

Tigger

"The man who is not a socialist at twenty has no heart, but if he is still a socialist at forty he has no head."

Mesrine65

1 Tequila, 2 Tequila, 3 Tequila, 4....

5 Tequila, 6 Tequila, 7 Tequila...floor

Píss off OP, too early for philosophising :P

5rtytry56

WWJD......;)

Hoop66

Why water Jack Daniels?

stmol32

Surely if you ditch them just because you get a bit older and comfortable then they weren't really principles, just ****e you spouted when you were younger to get laid.

Geniass

That's some serious growing up in a short time, Fukuyama

Geniass

stmol32 wrote: »

Surely if you ditch them just because you get a bit older and comfortable then they weren't really principles, just ****e you spouted when you were younger to get laid.

Experience makes a huge difference. Socialism is quite a decent principle until you factor people in. Then it kinda falls apart. It might take a while to figure that out... some might never figure that out.

blatantrereg

People's political position reflects their social position. If you're rich you are more aware of having to sponsor spongers. If you are poor you're more aware of oppurtunities being denied poor people and exploitation. Both views are valid. At extremes we demonise the people at the other end of the spectrum.

As a young man I was a a left wing libertarian because I had no money or authority. Today I've become moderately authoritarian, still moderately left wing. However I have ambitions to make a substantial jump to the right in the near future.

kneemos

Only principles I have any interest in are Victoria's.

AskMyChocolate

Mesrine65 wrote: »

1 Tequila, 2 Tequila, 3 Tequila, 4....

5 Tequila, 6 Tequila, 7 Tequila...floor

Píss off OP, too early for philosophising :P

Agreed.But ,still 16 minutes until the off-license opens. Had to do something to while away those endless sober hours!:pac:

whupdedo

Jaysus , all the intellectuals are here this morning

kneemos

whupdedo wrote: »

Jaysus , all the intellectuals are here this morning

Thanks.

5rtytry56

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

Agreed.But ,still 16 minutes until the off-license opens. Had to do something to while away those endless sober hours!:pac:

Right OP, how are you feeling now? Any better?

AskMyChocolate

Geniass wrote: »

Experience makes a huge difference. Socialism is quite a decent principle until you factor people in. Then it kinda falls apart. It might take a while to figure that out... some might never figure that out.

I've always found it a bit ironic, that if you really want to see socialism at its best you should go to the staunch Red (Republican) states in America. Bake-sales, farmers sharing machinery and giving each other a dig out, etc.

Much more so than in the traditional Blue states.

Just be careful not to compliment them on their socialism or you might end up with an arse full of buck-shot!:pac:

catallus

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

....
Just be careful not to compliment them on their socialism or you might end up with an arse full of buck-shot!:pac:

Early to mid twentieth century American policy makers despised socialism because they associated it with godless anarchism. It was the unfortunate fact that the main proponents of socialism/communism in the 1910's/20's were godless heathens which has led to such dissonance between the perception and the reality.

Marx may have got a lot of things wrong, and a lot of his stuff may be airy-fairy, but there can be no denying that he was right when he saw that capitalism makes slaves of us all, other than the money-owners.

Anyways, if socialism wasn't usurped by the Russians back in the day things would be very different!

AskMyChocolate

5rtytry56 wrote: »

Right OP, how are you feeling now? Any better?

*Locks door.puts jogging pants back on. Opens can*

Fit to bull cows mate. Thanks for asking. \o/

AskMyChocolate

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

*Locks door.puts jogging pants back on. Opens can*

Fit to bull cows mate. Thanks for asking. \o/

Hi-fiddle-de-dee, an actor's life for me!:D:pac:

Autonomous Cowherd

Why ''isms''? Socialism, capitalism, libertarianism, whatever. Nothing is winning at the moment. Sure, some fat cats are rubbing their bellies and their balls, but given that half the population of the planet does not have sufficient to meet their calorific intake to sustain a flourishing life, then no one is winning. The same wages slaves that are possessively cradling their tablets and iPhones aught to check out the burning digital dumps that stretch for miles on African soil, and the benzene-poisoned kids in China who make them, and know that our cornflakes are always gonna be soggy as long as we live off the backs of another fellow being, even if we fool ourselves otherwise.

Other than that it's a grand oul day and I'm making great headway against the weeds in the veg beds

Clandestine

We don't have capitalism at the moment... we have corporatism.

Earthhorse

Those fool Scandinavians still haven't abandoned the principles of socialism; their excellent education systems, world class health services and high standards of living are clouding their judgement.

catallus

Earthhorse wrote: »

Those fool Scandinavians still haven't abandoned the principles of socialism; their excellent education systems, world class health services and high standards of living are clouding their judgement.

Their eugenics, their mass deportations.

Autonomous Cowherd

catallus wrote: »

Their eugenics, their mass deportations.

Which country/system/culture exactly has not had / does not still have a dark underbelly? Surely you cannot expect to dismiss an entire political system that works reasonably well at the moment by many objective standards and increases happiness among its population with such a glib remark about past evils? If we were to bear constant witness to Ireland's shameful (and recent) past we would be stuck in a rut of depression and immobility. There is no inch of the planet that has not known its own peculiar shame.

DEFTLEFTHAND

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

Agreed.But ,still 16 minutes until the off-license opens. Had to do something to while away those endless sober hours!:pac:

Amateur mistake choco, the can reserve most always be carefully monitored.

Clandestine

Earthhorse wrote: »

Those fool Scandinavians still haven't abandoned the principles of socialism; their excellent education systems, world class health services and high standards of living are clouding their judgement.

http://www.libsdebunked.com/socialism/scandinavian-socialism-argument/

Matt_Trakker

I used to believe that people were good.
Individuals on a one to one are good....mostly.
It's people/gen. pop that are c"nts.

Also, money doesn't make you happy, well it does.
Money insures security, comfort and freedom.
Being poor is a load of balls, I'm never going to be poor ever again. I'll do anything to make sure of that. There's always ways of making money, you just need to put in a lot of hard graft.

Fleawuss

Don't ever get into debt. For cars, for a house. Looks at bank statement. Weeps

Geniass

Ploure wrote: »

It's a shame they are miserable though.

Even with all that oil.

Ireland should definitely drill oil wells and use the money to provide better social services.

I blame the gubernment for not having oil wells.

smurgen

Pragmatism.the older I'm getting the more pragmatic I find myself.im finding it harder to be either left or right wing politically.i would have been more left wing when I was younger both on a social and political level but now I see there's exceptions to how I feel on every subject.i just think people need to strive towards the most optimum solution to a problem whether it goes against their principles in other words be more pragmatic.

KomradeBishop

I used to believe that people in general are capable of rational thinking and learning/caring, so long as you find the right way to explain something to them, but well - most people just don't give a shít, as soon as it starts to get complicated, and are plagued by all sorts of cognitive biases/dissonance.

That likely explains the persistence of most political/economic/social problems on the planet - and is why you get the "Fúck It. Can't be arsed with principles." or "I'm alright jack." type thinking like here.

Everyone wants to believe they are a good person, and have an inherent need to believe this - but this doesn't mean people won't do bad things either directly or indirectly out of negligence (e.g. neglecting civic responsibilities - such as at least being informed on what is harming society, and how to fix it), it just means they'll try and find a reason to rationalize/justify those bad things to themselves and others.

my teapot is orange

Why do we teach kids so much idealistic nonsense in schools, so that they have to waste years in the real world discovering it's untrue? I think they should leave school with a healthy cynicism to protect themselves.

suicide_circus

Earthhorse wrote: »

Those fool Scandinavians still haven't abandoned the principles of socialism; their excellent education systems, world class health services and high standards of living are clouding their judgement.

Scandinavia proves nothing. An extremely resources rich region with a relatively small homogeneous population with strong protestant leanings.

keeponhurling

Tigger wrote: »

"The man who is not a socialist at twenty has no heart, but if he is still a socialist at forty he has no head."

That's a great quote and so true.

When you're younger you've idealistic notions of being one big community,
Then you realize that somebody has to pay the bills.

Emigration is also a factor, as if it's not worthwhile to stay behind and pay the bills, the most talented section of the population will leave.

FluffyAngel

at twenty I sniggered at elastic banded pants

At forty I let go of that sniggering and have embraced the comfort of banded pants

Dam you middle aged spread !!!

TheBeardedLady

Oh how it makes me laugh when I see all these anti-Socialists who are happy to avail of "free" public schools/university, dole when they're out of work, disability allowance, public health, maternity/paternity benefits, public amenities etc. I can't but raise my eyes high into the heavens.


I have a class of very openly right-wing students and one of them was diagnosed with cancer last year. Under the public health system, she was was treated and is now back to work on the road to recovery, which wouldn't have been the case if she only had the option of private healthcare as a single woman on a low salary typical of Spanish workers (thanks to this government allowing employees to pay what they like with the justification that 10 people with **** jobs with crap salaries and no security is better than 1 person with a decent job and security) . Last week she states she's going to vote the Spanish party who's very aggressively attempting to privatise the hell out of healthcare right now. Nice person and I'm very glad she's recovered but her inability to put 2 and 2 together is astounding - Socialism saved your life, love.

j80ezgvc3p92xu

Socialism is not idealistic. Its sacrifices virtues and idealism for security and blandness. Socialism reminds me of the grey type of porridge with nothing in it, you know the one you get if you have no milk and you just mix oat flakes with water. Yeah that one.

People don't really realise how bad left wing systems are because, truth be told, we do not have it that bad in Ireland. But real full blown socialism marches hand in hand with 'political correctness' (State telling you what to think), bloated bureaucracy (an army of public servants to make sure you paid your water tax, air tax, land tax, breathing tax...), stifling regulation and the decimation of the middle class. Everyone gets to be 'equally' miserable in the end.

I would not agree with the 'rugged individualism' models either though because as humans we all may just need a dig out sometime. It is a product of the erroneous Protestant group think that poverty is somehow a crime.

the evasion_kid

Working hard...does nothing but drive you to an earlier grave

silverfeather

My Dad's principles are so heavy they would make your spine snap. But they don't weigh heavy on him at all. He can't even feel them.

I can't feel mine either. I don't think you can wear other people's principles they don't fit.


Wear your own.

Hoop66

my teapot is orange wrote: »

Why do we teach kids so much idealistic nonsense in schools, so that they have to waste years in the real world discovering it's untrue? I think they should leave school with a healthy cynicism to protect themselves.

If humans can learn the benefits of cooperation as a species, then the overall increase in well being can mitigate the natural spikes of self interest


That's so hippy-dippy I want to punch myself in the face.

silverfeather

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Oh how it makes me laugh when I see all these anti-Socialists who are happy to avail of "free" public schools/university, dole when they're out of work, disability allowance, public health, maternity/paternity benefits, public amenities etc. I can't but raise my eyes high into the heavens.


I have a class of very openly right-wing students and one of them was diagnosed with cancer last year. Under the public health system, she was was treated and is now back to work on the road to recovery, which wouldn't have been the case if she only had the option of private healthcare as a single woman on a low salary typical of Spanish workers (thanks to this government allowing employees to pay what they like with the justification that 10 people with **** jobs with crap salaries and no security is better than 1 person with a decent job and security) . Last week she states she's going to vote the Spanish party who's very aggressively attempting to privatise the hell out of healthcare right now. Nice person and I'm very glad she's recovered but her inability to put 2 and 2 together is astounding - Socialism saved your life, love.

My Dad had to go private. :-( I am glad she is ok. I agree with you. People think there is not a balance between the two. You can have a private economy and take some things out of it. No one should die from lack of healthcare.

You can't expect everyone to adhere to your principles I don't know why it came down to economics. Different people think differently. It's trying to force people to think like you that causes most wars.

indioblack

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

.....y'see capitalism won, or were you out the day we did that?

So, AHers, what principles have you had to ditch on your way to middle-aged pragmatism?

Y'see Cornflakes get soggy if you don't eat them while they're crunchy.

Choco

As I get older I realise that I'm really not very good at lot of things - and neither are most of the people I know.
I think this is called growing up.
Had to happen eventually - I've been putting it off for long enough.