New FR MX base at Wroclaw announced

18MonthsaSlave

EDIT: "Opportunity lost and skills once present in Dublin wither away."
This is not a good thread title, right away you are looking for a fight.
I have edited your post to show you how to make a thread that will have lively debate rather than other posters thinking that you have an axe to grind

Ryanair announce new MX base:

http://corporate.ryanair.com/news/news/150514-aircraft-maintenance-facility-at-wroclaw/?market=en

Ryanair, Poland’s No.1 airline, today (13 May) announced it would open its first Polish ‘C-check’ maintenance base at Wroclaw Airport in March 2016. Construction on the Wroclaw Aircraft Maintenance Services (WAMS) hangar will begin in November and the facility will create up to 150 high-tech jobs when completed, including licensed engineers, mechanics and support staff, as Ryanair invests over €6m at Wroclaw Airport.

A dedicated heavy maintenance facility, WAMS will deliver ‘C-check’ maintenance for Ryanair's fleet of Boeing 737-800 aircraft and will consist of a 2 bay modern purpose built hangar facility with the option of further expansion.

- See more at: http://corporate.ryanair.com/news/news/150514-aircraft-maintenance-facility-at-wroclaw/?market=en#sthash.tLaoZHND.dpuf


EDIT: Those anyone elseone fel that this is a loss for Dublin, could they have bid for and won this tender?

AlekSmart

L1011 wrote: »

....
I predict less than half a reply before we get regurgitated Micky lies about hangars.

How many Aircraft has "Mickey's" Airline based in Dublin for 2016 ?

18MonthsaSlave

No, take it as a conscious decision not to be dragged down to your level. I've already complained about your initial agressive posting to the tread to the moderators. Nothing has come of it so far.

L1011

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

No, take it as a conscious decision not to be dragged down to your level. I've already complained about your initial agressive posting to the tread to the moderators. Nothing has come of it so far.

You haven't got the slightest idea what "antagonistic" or "aggresive" posting are.

You have a history on here of making baseless, pro-Ryanair, anti-pretty much everyone else (but more often than not the DAA) statements and never backing them up. Its perfectly valid to request proof, while pointing out what is almost inevitably going to be given instead.

If you can give a reasoned argument, or some figures to support your claim that'd be wonderful. History gives me zero reason to expect them.

18MonthsaSlave

Are you a moderator?

L1011

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

Are you a moderator?

Nothing I've said has anything to do with moderation, so I've zero idea why you're asking. Distractions don't work on here.

You made a bold and likely baseless claim (again!) which you've done nothing to back up.

CardinalJ

Well, that escalated.

BonkeyDonker

What does this do to the current maintenance bases around Europe?

Given the size of the ever growing Ryanair fleet does it not make sense yo have bases spread out around Europe - makes more sense than having to move aircraft in such a way as to reduce the complexity of aircraft movements, and the in flexibility that this brings.

Given the growth east bound it makes sense to put a mx base there, and I presume the numbers for Worclaw were the best for Ryanair.

billie1b

AlekSmart wrote: »

How many Aircraft has "Mickey's" Airline based in Dublin for 2016 ?

28 for the Summer, supposedly 30 for the winter

lord lucan

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

No, take it as a conscious decision not to be dragged down to your level. I've already complained about your initial agressive posting to the tread to the moderators. Nothing has come of it so far.

Nothing has come of it because there's nothing to deal with. You've posted a story with a thread title that's deliberately provocative but with no opinion or comment from you. You're expecting a reaction, it's not the first time you've done it and playing the victim and opening DRP threads because a Mod didn't respond quick enough to your perceived problem isn't going to help your case.

Play nice or you'll be having a little holiday from A&A.

18MonthsaSlave

billie1b wrote: »

28 for the Summer, supposedly 30 for the winter

And only 2 based in Wroclaw according to the press release.
They'll actually have to divert to the location for maintenance.

It appears Hahn has a 7000 sq. metre hanger and flight sim and training facilities and then there is Prestwick.
Here are some of the assets of the company.
https://www.ryanair.com/doc/investor/Facilities.pdf

That's business that was there to be won and jobs to be created.

LoonyLovegood

But Hahn, Prestwick and Dublin are all western Europe. Ryanair are cutting their flights from Prestwick, and putting them to Glasgow instead. If it works for Ryanair, it works. We have to get away of them being an 'Irish Airline', because they're not anymore. They're a European airline, and they're not going to place a mx base where they'd have a lot of their planes away from their bases.

I don't see where it says Dublin DIDN'T compete and I don't see where it says skills in Dublin are withering away.

billie1b

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

And only 2 based in Wroclaw according to the press release.
They'll actually have to divert to the location for maintenance.

It appears Hahn has a 7000 sq. metre hanger and flight sim and training facilities and then there is Prestwick.
Here are some of the assets of the company.
https://www.ryanair.com/doc/investor/Facilities.pdf

That's business that was there to be won and jobs to be created.

The aircraft wont 'divert' for maintenance, they have the scheduling worked to perfection that aircraft roll in off a flight, get checked and roll back out onto a departure flight.

APM

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

And only 2 based in Wroclaw according to the press release.
They'll actually have to divert to the location for maintenance.

Of course not. Initially only being a 2 bay hanger it will be very easy to swap the aircraft in and out of the WRO base before/after maintenance. They are very good about doing aircraft swaps during the day with little or no impact on passengers. I think a few too many plane spotters hang around these forums who have no actual operational experience of an airline

martinsvi

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

That's business that was there to be won and jobs to be created.

Have you considered that perhaps Dublin simply doesn't have space for another maintenance hangar? While were at Dublin topic, have you considered that more and more industries and businesses will look elsewhere because cost of living in Dublin is unreasonable and property/rental market is completely outrageous?

APM wrote: »

I think a few too many plane spotters hang around these forums who have no actual operational experience of an airline

whoa there, easy now, I don't see any spotters coming up with false statements or speculations, I think you're barking at the wrong tree

18MonthsaSlave

LoonyLovegood wrote: »

They're a European airline,

Europe isn't so big for a jet airplane. Approx 1 hr 45 mins to Shannon from Germany. It is the smallest of the continents after Australia and only a small bit larger than that

APM wrote:

Dublin simply doesn't have space for another maintenance hangar?

why is that then? an awful lot of green out there just 4km from the border with Meath.

Billie1B wrote:

The aircraft wont 'divert' for maintenance, they have the scheduling worked to perfection that aircraft roll in off a flight, get checked and roll back out onto a departure flight.

They're scheduling is so good? So that excludes Dublin because? They'd be able to work a particular plane over from east to west in a day or two with no loss of service and more opportunities to slot them in as Dublin is more connected than Wroclaw.

Deleted User wrote:

skills in Dublin are withering away

Lufthansa Airmotive, TEAM Aer Lingus and the SR Technics are so easily forgot; They don't date back to the time of the zeppelins.

loonylovegood wrote:

They're a European airline

but headquartered at a large airport in Ireland and had previously expressed a desire to site a large maintenance facility at their Headquarters. What they have now in Dublin isn't even close to their largest facility.

LoonyLovegood wrote: »

Dublin is unreasonable and property/rental market is completely outrageous?

so you'd agree that the cost of living in Dublin which is driven by government policy is endangering the living of people engaged in the highly mobile aviation sector to the point where it is in danger of withering away leaving behind only a few shell and leasing companies who add no great value to the economy or society.

FFS If you can't attract your indigenous airlines to site their maintenance facilities in Ireland then what chance does the industry have.
It seems that in the future if you want to be involved in the airline industry in Ireland then you'll have to be either an accountant or learn to serve tea and coffee because you won't be flying the things and you won't be maintaining them.

murphaph

Be happy Ryanair pays corporation tax in Ireland. It's a huge European airline at this stage. It's natural for it to want to establish mx bases across the continent. If Ryanair viewed itself as an Irish airline it would never have expanded to become as large as it is and the tax revenues it pays to the state would be a fraction of what they are. Would you rather a small myopic Irish carrier with a larger mx base in DUB supporting a few dozen more jobs or a huge pan continental airline supporting hundreds of other job types in Ireland and paying a heap of tax as well? I know which I find more beneficial to the country as a whole anyway. A few more jobs in DUB would be nice, but sure you can't have everything.

18MonthsaSlave

I work for one of the largest software companies in the world and their attachment to their home country is considerable and they have invested in it consistently even though most profit doesn't come from the country any more. They are regularly bring operations "home" as some of my Irish Colleagues have discovered to their cost.
Anyhow, Ryanair, an indigenous company, wanted to build a large maintenance facility in Dublin and this did not come to pass. The desire was there.

murphaph

You work in software....me too. It's probably the most footloose industry there is. There are no costs for shipping the product etc.

Now, Ireland manages to punch well above its weight in the software sector. Aircraft maintenance is also fairly footloose, maybe slightly less than software as you need to build large hangars and so on and that's a reasonable investment that you won't easily walk away from.

So, why have aircraft maintenance jobs been declining in Ireland? Is it someone's fault?

JCX BXC

IMO a key thing is wages. They are far lower in Poland than in Ireland.

Anyway think of it this way, it could be up to 150 less polish in Ireland!

18MonthsaSlave

Carnacalla wrote: »

IMO a key thing is wages. They are far lower in Poland than in Ireland.

Anyway think of it this way, it could be up to 150 less polish in Ireland!

and my company paid me considerably less in Ireland but they still repatriated the job (and me along with it) to Germany. Indigenous industry is great.

JCX BXC

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

and my company paid me considerably less in Ireland but they still repatriated the job (and me along with it) to Germany. Indigenous industry is great.

Your company will pay you the going rate in Ireland, any less and they will get terrible employees.

Also, Germany and Poland are very different to eachother, perhaps your not familiar to the end of Communist Russia?

billie1b

Carnacalla wrote: »

IMO a key thing is wages. They are far lower in Poland than in Ireland.

Anyway think of it this way, it could be up to 150 less polish in Ireland!

WTF is wrong with Polish people?

JCX BXC

billie1b wrote: »

WTF is wrong with Polish people?

Not polish in particular, mainly immigrants that Ireland doesnt need. Prejudice joke.

Petty joke, not a serious remark.

billy few mates

I would say the decision to locate it in Poland is more to do with the local labour rates compared to what they would have to pay in DUB.
Also a lot of places like this will offer support to the venture in return for the creation of jobs that the industry would bring.
My guess is the local authorities paid for the hangar to be constructed and will probably pay a lot towards the start up costs and for things like training etc, it's very common, lots of airlines have done it in the past. It's a highly skilled industry but you can control your costs by locating somewhere where the labour costs are a lot lower.
My guess is that DUB was never really in the running for this regardless of the bluster....

Plus with so many maintenance facilities in DUB they'd be competing with the other companies for the same small pool of resources....

andy_g

Carnacalla wrote: »

Not polish in particular, mainly immigrants that Ireland doesnt need. Prejudice joke.

Petty joke, not a serious remark.

Keep the racist remarks off thread everyone thanks.

Tenger

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

.......Ryanair, an indigenous company, wanted to build a large maintenance facility in Dublin and this did not come to pass. The desire was there.

The publicly stated desire was there. If FR were serious about this 'desire' then why do we not see them setting up the facilities in SNN? ....or what about buying the land at the end of the runway from the McAvaddy brother's. DUB itself does not have the space....FR wanted pre-built facilities at a low cost (it is their expanding business model after all) DUB could not give them this.

Your outrage at the perceeived lost of skills is a bit late as SRT left years ago.

Tenger

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

No, take it as a conscious decision not to be dragged down to your level. I've already complained about your initial agressive posting to the tread to the moderators. Nothing has come of it so far.

Im sorry that the volunteer moderators weren't anxiously sitting at home at 2225 in order to deal with your complaint. The mods are not online 24 hours, they have real lives too.

I have edited the 'spoiling for a fight' thread title and deleted the initial posts which involved you getting outraged when L1011 took your trollbait.

18MonthsaSlave

Tenger wrote: »

Im sorry that the volunteer moderators weren't anxiously sitting at home at 2225 in order to deal with your complaint..

Some of them were available at that time and logged in.

18MonthsaSlave

Nice bit of revisionism there with the deletion of posts, fashioned to suit your own agenda which is that DAA and Irish Government can do no wrong(except when they aren't letting DAA do what they want) and threats of immediate bans to any who should disagree with you.

18MonthsaSlave

Tenger wrote: »

SRT left years ago.

Euphemism for a thousand specialized workers being left on the scrap heap and no mention of Airmotive or any of the others who are in a precarious position at present while the industry in Ireland withers away.

JCX BXC

The DAA can and do do things wrong. Have you ever heard of Cork Airport?

Stop being so petty.

18MonthsaSlave

Peoples' livelihoods are not a petty issue...someone else will say I'm being overly dramatic now.

lord lucan

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

Peoples' livelihoods are not a petty issue...someone else will say I'm being overly dramatic now.

Yes you are being overly dramatic, there's no agenda here, the daa take plenty of flak on this forum, sometimes unfairly so and other times deservedly. You're the one with the agenda and if you continue to derail threads due to that bias and agenda it'll end up in a ban.

Tenger

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

Nice bit of revisionism there with the deletion of posts, fashioned to suit your own agenda which is that DAA and Irish Government can do no wrong(except when they aren't letting DAA do what they want) and threats of immediate bans to any who should disagree with you.

I think you completely misinterprete my deletion. I wanted to delete the petty arguments and indignant outrage which distracted from an interesting topic. I dont have an agenda.

No way would I ever claim the Govt or DAA are blameless.
Personally I do think the Irish aeronautical engineering industry and skillbase has been more than decimated over the last 20-25 years.

However I dont feel this recent announcement is relevant to this point. The losses were made 5-10, or even 20 years ago. While Dublin Aerospace is a new successful company it cannot replace Team FLS/SRT or LH Airmotive.

I happen to know some of the highly experienced ex-SRT guys. Its a crying shame that they seen as disposable assets by some team who sit at desks and crunch financial numbers.

18MonthsaSlave

Withering away of business opportunities doesn't happen via press release for the most part. It happens silently as management teams decide to or "rather decide not to" invest in Ireland. The opening quote is as close as you'll get to an announcement that Ireland just isn't at the races in the same way as multinationals don't announce they're not investing in ballygobackwards because of lack of labour, infrastructure and factors of production.
Here Ireland was jostling to be a leader in this business and it just slipped away not to be regained and nobody pauses to think over what has been lost.
Look at the route map on Ryanair's website for Wroclaw and Dublin. I can only find one destination that isn't shared between them. Dublin could have been doing maintenance for the planes. That isn't an outrageous claim. That is a fact. That's jobs lost in Ireland and if it goes well for Ryanair then they'll get a taste for more of it and scale back on maintenance in Dublin.
I've seen jobs lost in Ireland in two multinational companies I've worked for to ambitious low cost locations all because some people were too self-satisfied and happy with their lot. In one case I'd almost go as far as to say the local managers were happy with their redundancy payoff when the local operation shut down.

Tenger

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

Withering away of a business opportunities doesn't happen via press release for the most part. It happens silently as management teams decide to or "rather decide not to" invest in Ireland. The opening quote is as close as you'll get to an announcement that Ireland just isn't at the races in the same way as multinationals don't announce they're not investing in ballygobackwards because of lack of labour, infrastructure and factors of production.
Here Ireland was jostling to be a leader in this business and it just slipped away not to be regained and nobody pauses to think over what has been lost.
................Dublin could have been doing maintenance for the planes. That isn't an outrageous claim. That is a fact. That's jobs lost in Ireland and if it goes well for Ryanair then they'll get a taste for more of it and scale back on maintenance in Dublin........

Can you prove that DUB was in the running for this 'opportunity'?
Does DUB have the hanger and ramp space available?
Does DUB have the competitive labour costs?
Does DUB have the availability of trained staff?

I think you may be reading more into this due to your personal situation. DUB may well of tendered but perhaps were not able to match the WRO offer.

The lack of hanger space is due to DUB already having 2 MX companies running successful operations,as well as EI using the largest hanger for their own operation. C-Checks are serious processes that require specific facilities, if the airfield does not have them readily avail then FR will look elsewhere. Building the facilities from scratch is not the FR way.

Even if SRT/TEAM were still sited in DUB they may not have had the extra resources and manpower to take on a large FR C-Check contract.

Add to this the possible disparity in labour costs from DUB to WRO. I am not knowledgeable but from talking to some Polish workmates I am going to assume WRO is lower.

billy few mates

He's already been told the reasons why DUB was never in the running for this venture but he conveniently ignores the fact because it doesn't suit his personal agenda. FR are a big airline with approx 400 A/C but even when they were a lot smaller they've had C Checks done abroad in Stansted, Prestwick and even Bournemouth, where was the missed opportunities to bring that work to DUB...?
The truth is it suits their business model to have this capability spread over several sites around Europe particularly if those sites are places where lower costs can be achieved and DUB doesn't fit that profile.
Compared to some of the other sites available DUB is actually saturated with maintenance companies, and where there are a number of companies competing for the same small highly skilled labour pool wages will be a deciding factor in attracting staff, in WRO they'll be able to pay local rates.

18MonthsaSlave

At this very moment I'm remotely observing work being done for me by Indian Colleagues which was done by my Irish Colleagues and this work is ongoing. My Managers will not be going back to ask the Irish office tender for the work anytime in the future so the Irish office won't be leasing extra offices or diverting staff to these activities.
If you aren't asked for an RFP(proposal to quote for work) you aren't at the races. No work comes your way.

Welcome to the global economy! Ireland aviation was once a player, now they're just onlookers.

billy few mates

And would you be prepared to do this work on the same terms and conditions as your Indian colleagues....?

Have you started another thread on here condemning your current employer over the missed opportunity here...?

18MonthsaSlave

billy few mates wrote: »

And would you be prepared to do this work on the same terms and conditions as your Indian colleagues....?

Have you started another thread on here condemning your current employer over the missed opportunity here...?

As stated earlier in the thread I moved from a lower cost location to a higher cost location with an increase in salary for the same role. How do you work that in to your world economic view? Cheapest provider doesn't always win the business.

L1011

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

Anyhow, Ryanair, an indigenous company, wanted to build a large maintenance facility in Dublin and this did not come to pass. The desire was there.

Realistically, Ryanair knew that they hadn't a hope in hell of getting Hangar 6, but saw an opportunity to try get their main competitor at their home base disadvantaged, get a lot of positive PR etc all for doing a bit of blustering.

Its very easy to make "commitments" you know you'll never have to do - just ask the current opposition parties.


You have nothing to suggest that Dublin (or Shannon, or anywhere else in Ireland for that matter) was ever in consideration for this business, and until you do its pointless trying to bang on about it. Ryanair would logically need an MX base in Eastern Europe due to the volume of traffic there and the absolute illogicality of bringing planes halfway across the continent and back solely for MX as you proposed.

FWVT

I'm confused; why should Ryanair do maintenance in DUB?

JCX BXC

FWVT wrote: »

I'm confused; why should Ryanair do maintenance in DUB?

Also, could they have done? With the very high wages in Dublin was it ever a contender?

18MonthsaSlave

L1011 wrote: »

You have nothing to suggest that Dublin (or Shannon, or anywhere else in Ireland for that matter) was ever in consideration for this business, and until you do its pointless trying to bang on about it. Ryanair would logically need an MX base in Eastern Europe due to the volume of traffic there and the absolute illogicality of bringing planes halfway across the continent and back solely for MX as you proposed.

Johnny Cochran defence! Prove it beyond even the slightest possibility of doubt or my murdering client must go free.

"illogicality of bringing planes halfway across the continent" You didn't read my post where I pointed out that these planes are visiting Dublin anyhow. Look at the overlap on routes.

and what is lost? I see my Colleagues here and their Children have a very good chance of entering the same well paid sustainable industry, if not the same company.
BASF for example has employees who are fourth generation employees working in their headquarters town.
Aviation is withering away in Ireland.

L1011

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

Aviation is withering away in Ireland.

Stating this over and over doesn't make it so

Where are the empty MX hangers at DUB? Or SNN, or NOC for that matter now that it's entered the game (dismantling, but its something).

You don't know that this had even the slightest chance of coming to Ireland and you can't back up your hyperbolic "withering" statement either. This isn't even a case of there being proof to reasonable doubt like you're trying to claim above - you haven't got any proof at all.

kona

Aviation in Ireland isn't withering away lol

18MonthsaSlave

of course you won't see empty hangars when according to company owners they are being retasked for consolidation of tech support and refitted as swanky offices for managers.

http://dev.businessandleadership.com/leadership/item/20127-giving-up-hangar-6-not-an

http://www.gcon.ie/retail-fit-out/hangar-6.252.html

To get a away with murder you have to hide the body.

Do they even have enough work and expertise to fill that hangar. Two different long haul planes, one mid range and then the regional planes which they don't even own.

L1011

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

of course you won't see empty hangars when according to company owners they are being retasked for consolidation of tech support and refitted as swanky offices for managers.

http://dev.businessandleadership.com/leadership/item/20127-giving-up-hangar-6-not-an

http://www.gcon.ie/retail-fit-out/hangar-6.252.html

To get a away with murder you have to hide the body.

Do they even have enough work and expertise to fill that hangar. Two different long haul planes, one mid range and then the regional planes which they don't even own.

So, four pages in we've got to what you actually wanted to discuss.

If you wanted another slanging match about Hangar 6 why didn't you post a thread on that, then? Rather than trying to bring it about tangentially. Also, if you actually read the page you linked there you'd see that they refitted existing offices as offices - not the actual workshop area.



If you really think number of plane types has any relevance, why should an airline with one get it anyway?

18MonthsaSlave

L1011 wrote: »

So, four pages in we've got to what you actually wanted to discuss.

If you wanted another slanging match about Hangar 6 why didn't you post a thread on that, then? Rather than trying to bring it about tangentially. Also, if you actually read the page you linked there you'd see that they refitted existing offices as offices - not the actual workshop area.



If you really think number of plane types has any relevance, why should an airline with one get it anyway?

No, you've wheedled it around to what you wanted to discuss in your first abusive post which was deleted by the moderator.
You are so disingenuous.