Speculation around the wall - Contains spoilers from TV series & books

Nody

This is pure speculation on the potential fall of the wall; I'll spoiler it not because it has any future information but that it could strike far to close to the truth for comfort. Please note the spoiler contains book & TV series spoilers. I've put it in a separate thread simply because it's not really tied to an episode as such but rather a geographical area and what may happen.

We know the whites can't get through the wall (i.e. book scene about mr black hands having to send through Sam through the secret gate to tell Mr Cripple and Hodor how to come through the wall). This is most likely tied down with the magic that's "buried beneath the wall"; i.e. there's a magical bounder put down before the wall was put in place to stop them from coming through. This would mean the wall is simply there to stop wildlings basically and stop kidnapping from being done easier.

We know our fiery priest (who's was a slave before the temple bought her) has a very much "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" attitude to things and love to tamper with things. Se also appears to see herself as the future big hero's wife and partner and loves to tamper with things (and Martin's love to punish people with hybris) which would likely lead to Melisandre as the likely culprit to remove the spell in one of her rituals "to summon the fiery god himself" or something else like this (she always needs royal blood for it's power so it would make sense if she could suck the power from the spell as well). This would set up the fall of the wall and Melisandre's fall from grace and her death.

With Bran's story arc being where it is he's also the likely person to be putting down the new spell (and become the new Bran the builder as his ancestor by extension) though doubtful many will know about the fact he was the one to put it down (but I can see a scene with him and John when he explains what he's going to do etc. and how he's going to keep watch from his place in the ground etc. and John gets a song or story written about it). John would then be the one to rebuild the wall having sworn the oath etc. and become the greatest wall commander for ages etc. I know he's been stabbed etc. but I'm quite certain they'll resolve it one way or another

The question then becomes; how the heck are three dragons suppose to stop the whole march of the ghouls etc. once the wall falls? I mean yes they fear fire etc. but still once the wall is down there's nothing to keep them in one place so they can spread out and simply keep on growing in strength for the rest of eternity basically; esp. with winter ruling the lands. Also what's going to happen down in Dorn? Will the deserts suddenly freeze?

Lovely Bloke

That's...hard to read, and makes little sense.

razorblunt

This thread won't last very long if every post is full of grey blocks.
But, personally, I think

there's something in the wall

Hyzepher

Are the White Walkers definitely evil? Maybe they are a balancing force that surfaces when the "time of men" needs to be curtailed?

Mr.Prodston

Hyzepher wrote: »

Are the White Walkers definitely evil? Maybe they are a balancing force that surfaces when the "time of men" needs to be curtailed?

I've been suggesting something along the lines of this for a while now. We know very little to nothing about them. How much better or worse are they than Dany and her Dragons? Who seem to pushing towards Westeros in the opposite direction (relatively speaking) conquering and killing when needs be to get there but she's considered to be on the side of good, to an extent.

As we've seen in the show they're effectively stealing/rescuing Craster's children. They could as easily be rescuing them from certain death as turning them for evil intent. Also why should the necessarily be cooped up beyond the wall? 8000 years have passed since anyone really knew what went on. Sure they're killing and turning people but they're being attacked too. Survival yo.

I'd like to think it's far from as clear cut as it's being presented but I'm a fan of the contrarian theories when it comes to things like this :pac:

podgemonster

Nody wrote: »

We know the whites can't get through the wall (i.e. book scene about mr black hands having to send through Sam through the secret gate to tell Mr Cripple and Hodor how to come through the wall). This is most likely tied down with the magic that's "buried beneath the wall"; i.e. there's a magical bounder put down before the wall was put in place to stop them from coming through. This would mean the wall is simply there to stop wildlings basically and stop kidnapping from being done easier.

We know our fiery priest (who's was a slave before the temple bought her) has a very much "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" attitude to things and love to tamper with things. Se also appears to see herself as the future big hero's wife and partner and loves to tamper with things (and Martin's love to punish people with hybris) which would likely lead to Melisandre as the likely culprit to remove the spell in one of her rituals "to summon the fiery god himself" or something else like this (she always needs royal blood for it's power so it would make sense if she could suck the power from the spell as well). This would set up the fall of the wall and Melisandre's fall from grace and her death.

With Bran's story arc being where it is he's also the likely person to be putting down the new spell (and become the new Bran the builder as his ancestor by extension) though doubtful many will know about the fact he was the one to put it down (but I can see a scene with him and John when he explains what he's going to do etc. and how he's going to keep watch from his place in the ground etc. and John gets a song or story written about it). John would then be the one to rebuild the wall having sworn the oath etc. and become the greatest wall commander for ages

etc. I know he's been stabbed etc.

but I'm quite certain they'll resolve it one way or another

The question then becomes; how the heck are three dragons suppose to stop the whole march of the ghouls etc. once the wall falls? I mean yes they fear fire etc. but still once the wall is down there's nothing to keep them in one place so they can spread out and simply keep on growing in strength for the rest of eternity basically; esp. with winter ruling the lands. Also what's going to happen down in Dorn? Will the deserts suddenly freeze?

I took out the spoiler tags since 99% of what you are saying seems to be coming from your own head and I don't think there any risk of these "theories" coming true, if they do then fairplay. I've blocked the piece about

Jons stabbing

but really show viewer shouldn't really be having these discussions yet given what lies ahead.

You're making a lot of assumptions here that carry no weight.

1) We don't know the Whites can't get through the wall because of magic, it hasn't happened....yet

2) Coldhands probably sent Tarly through the secret passage because of Sam physical limitations and equally for Bran. Also Coldhands looks like a wight, but that doesn't mean he is one.

3) The magic "buried beneath the wall" is still merely a myth from the age of heroes it has yet to tested in the timeline of the books and alot of the stories from the age of heroes have all been exaggerated through the centuries.

4) You then derived that because magic stops the Whites the sole purpose of the wall is to stop the Wildlings? That is a stretch. The Wall was built after the Long Night to protect the Realm from both Wildlings and the Others.

5) The Melisandre POV chapter reveals that much of her magic is tricky and manipulations, she also is very uncertain of what lies ahead. To say she is going to summon the fiery god merely because she wants to "tamper" is again a stretch on one of the most mysterious players in the Game of Thrones.

6) I've re read your paragraph on Bran several times and I still can't understand what you are trying to say.

7) Finally you assume Dany's 3 dragons make it to Westoros, the wall falls, the WW head south, spread out and make it all the way to Dorne? It may never come to that. I do believe the dragons have a part to play in the defense of the realm (and Bran also) but this speculations has taken major presumptuous leaps (WW freezing Dorne??).


What about the Nights Kings, what about the Horn, what about Bloodraven.

Nody

[QUOTE=podgemonster;954748941) We don't know the Whites can't get through the wall because of magic, it hasn't happened....yet[/QUOTE]True; but if the wall alone would be enough why bother with the magic wards? They could have the purpose of keeping the wall up only but point 2 disagrees with that idea.

2) Coldhands probably sent Tarly through the secret passage because of Sam physical limitations and equally for Bran. Also Coldhands looks like a wight, but that doesn't mean he is one.[/QUOTE]He does not breath, he does not eat, he does not sleep, he's frozen through and through and smells "dead meat, dry blood, a faint whiff of rot. And cold. Cold all over". If he's not a wight (possessed or freed from the overlords) I'm not sure what he could be oh and he also says he can't pass through the wall because of it's magic.

3) The magic "buried beneath the wall" is still merely a myth from the age of heroes it has yet to tested in the timeline of the books and alot of the stories from the age of heroes have all been exaggerated through the centuries.

And yet we had it referenced that Melisandre could feel the magic there; it's commented on by her saying that there's ancient magic buried there. Now while she's BSing a lot of the time she do have magic powers (of a sort at least) and we have Coldhand saying he can't pass through because of the magic. Once again we know wildmen can scale it along with giants etc. walking through it so why have magic there if it is not to stop the whites (as everyone else so far have gone over or under it just fine)?

4) You then derived that because magic stops the Whites the sole purpose of the wall is to stop the Wildlings? That is a stretch. The Wall was built after the Long Night to protect the Realm from both Wildlings and the Others.

See above. I think the main reason is to stop the wildlings because seeing how the wights and the others are running around none of them appear to try to make it south.

5) The Melisandre POV chapter reveals that much of her magic is tricky and manipulations, she also is very uncertain of what lies ahead. To say she is going to summon the fiery god merely because she wants to "tamper" is again a stretch on one of the most mysterious players in the Game of Thrones.

The summon the Lord of Light was simply an example of what she might get up to; she's consistently shown hybris in her own belief of being right and that the lord has selected her as the primary priestess on earth to execute his will. I could see her using the magic under the wall in a grand spell to do <something> the same way she uses the blood of kings to fuel her spells because she does not have the power herself to do any spells. What happens when a character gets hybris? They make a horrible mistake before they are killed horribly; it's simply in character of what I'd expect to come in general and it gives a natural way for the wall to fall (i.e. the wards helped keep the walls standing etc. and with the magic gone the wall falls down along with letting the wights through).

6) I've re read your paragraph on Bran several times and I still can't understand what you are trying to say.

Basic assumption; the wall falls and the magic wards under it falls (or there's not a whole lot to do with the white walkers after all except as boogy men so they have to get through it). Someone has to rebuild the wall and reinstate the wards. As the wards are very old chances are pretty big they were not done by men but the Children of the Forest as they had a special bond to support the wall & the crows with weapons against the walkers etc. previously.

Well in this case the person who'll lead the new ward to be put in place would be Bran who'll not be there in person (he'll be up in the roots of the weirwood trees replacing the previous warden) and help rebuild the walls through their magic (hence live up to the name of his ancestor Bran the Builder by being the Bran the Builder of the new age and then go on and become the watcher for a thousand years). How ever for this part of the story to be told someone has to tell it to the world in some form; I thought of John Snow as the one to meet Bran one last time in person or only as an avatar in some form (and Bran gets to tell John how he can fly etc. to give a bit of warm buzzy feeling ending to that character arc).

7) Finally you assume Dany's 3 dragons make it to Westoros, the wall falls, the WW head south, spread out and make it all the way to Dorne? It may never come to that. I do believe the dragons have a part to play in the defense of the realm (and Bran also) but this speculations has taken major presumptuous leaps (WW freezing Dorne??).

That was more pondering the idea; we know Dorne today is a desert but if we go by the snips of legends of the long night they talk about how all of the kingdoms were frozen. The question then being would this permanent winter stretch all the way to dorn as well or not (and if it does then yes I'd expect VW to be there).

What about the Nights Kings

The ward can be bypassed by invitation & magic (i.e. I don't think she was a wight as much as an other). This would also be pointed to by the fact he suddenly gained magical powers (i.e. in reality he was only a puppet for another).

Horn of Joramun

Supposed to have burned; most likely not and going by the book storyline with the glamour of Mance I'd say a glamour on the horn as well. Most likely Melisandre will use the horn in some form in her spell and that triggers it sucking all the magic in the ward to it and pull down the walls if it still exists. Or a long shot here is John Snow blowing the horn in desperation to get the giants to wake and fight on his side knowing it will bring the walls down because he feels the fight is lost if not.

Bloodraven

As the current sitting warden he's due to die and have Bran replace him; he'll have had the visions before but not the direct access to the ravens which he only got once stuck down there.

Sleepy

I suspect Sam has the horn of Joramun and that the wildlings are a consequence of the wall more than a reason it was built. It was built to keep the others at bay, men being on that side of the wall happened purely by chance / the desire of some to live outside the rule of Kings.