When's a commercial not a commercial

digzy

As per the title what defines a commercial?
I remember there was a prime time programme a few years back on guys buying x5s and q7s then taking out the back seats, getting them taxed at the commercial rate and then sticking the seats back in. I assumed all commercial 'jeeps' would only have front seats in them. Then I saw this bus on carzone

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/land-rover/range-rover/used-2011-land-rover-range-rover-dublin-fpa-147214248908222730

with back seats also. would the commercial tax apply to this? I'm thinking of getting a commercial for work but it'd be handy if I'd back seats in it for the kids!!

ShaunieVW

It's a crewcab , bit of a grey area to say the least.

Flood

Some law or loophole opened up the time of the cvrt that certain 4x4s if they have enough cubic space you could put in back seats. I did a lwb cruiser, put in back seats, belts and a cage behind the new rear seats.
That land rover you linked is an example of that. Some saving on the tax over €2k per annum.

biko

To tax it like a commercial you need to be a business.
There is also restrictions on how to use a commercially taxed car.

There is some info here
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/vehicle-conversions.html

Also:

People converting passenger four-wheel-drive vehicles from private to commercial road tax classification have been warned that they are in breach of the law unless they use the vehicles strictly for the carriage of goods “in the course of trade and business”.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/conversions-can-put-drivers-on-wrong-side-of-law-1.2088496

Flood

You can be linking links from the revenue till the cows come home and them going back out to the fields but until you link the law that the revenue are proposing people are breaking from the Irish Statute Book their is no law being broke.
There is no law to state one cant use a commercial vehicle for non commercial use.

biko

Let me guess, if you got nabbed you'd represent yourself in court?

digzy

TBF I doubt the gardai would be out with their measuring tape.
I suppose the main issue is getting guys to do it and how it should be insured.

In the real world we all know that 'commercial' vehicles serve domestic uses for a large part. remember the ruckus last year when it was announced that farmers in their jeeps could be stopped and if they weren't transporting farm stuff it would affect the car tax! Implication being that they ought buy a 'domestic' vehicle for personal use. If ever a law was 'unimplementable' ...

Flood

I cannot get nabbed for nothing, I went through all the processes and did everything by the book.

pippip

Flood wrote: »

I cannot get nabbed for nothing, I went through all the processes and did everything by the book.

If you did everything by the book did you not sign a rf111a form, declaring only to use the vehicle for commercial purposes and not social?

Flood

pippip wrote: »

If you did everything by the book did you not sign a rf111a form, declaring only to use the vehicle for commercial purposes and not social?

I didnt sign anything, RF111A from is only required if you are taxing the vehicle for the first time in your name now. Is the RF111A even a legal document?

pippip

Flood wrote: »

I didnt sign anything, RF111A from is only required if you are taxing the vehicle for the first time in your name.

So your employer made a declaration?

Flood

pippip wrote: »

So your employer made a declaration?

No, sorry I made an edit there in last post while we were posting.

pippip

Its a document you're signing to say you will only use the vehicle for commercial use. Along with it being witnessed, signed and stamped by the gardai. I think in court you'd be hard pushed to prove it isn't legal.

I'd say your right there in that there is no legal offense of driving a commercial vehicle for social use. But according to an old indo article you face a fine and its an offense to make a false garda declaration (which is pretty obvious). You could also have revenue after you although I think they could only get you for a few hundred.

At the end of the day the chances of being caught are very low but none the less it is an offense.

Xpro

They are slowly weeding out people taking advantage of this loophole.

Put it this way, if you don't have a business, if you driving with kids/family, weekends, etc, you are screwed!

Liam McPoyle

ShaunieVW wrote: »

It's a crewcab , bit of a grey area to say the least.

FWIW Ive never come across an insurer that will insure a crew cab - L200, Hilux etc as a private and Ive worked in brokers and for direct insurers for almost 6 years.

bop1977

Here is the guards take on an x5 "commercial"

https://mobile.twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/593055133304520704

TrailerBob

Xpro wrote: »

They are slowly weeding out people taking advantage of this loophole.

Put it this way, if you don't have a business, if you driving with kids/family, weekends, etc, you are screwed!

I've been hearing this for years... "Clamping down" has happened a dozen times in the last few years. Yet to find a Garda even remotely interested in whether or not I'm on a private errand..

Not disputing the motor tax use standpoint, but enforcement is almost impossible unless it's very obvious that it's private use (ie with kids going to the zoo on a Sunday)

Titzon Toast

bop1977 wrote: »

Here is the guards take on an x5 "commercial"

https://mobile.twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/593055133304520704

Read it again, the main reason they took it is because the driver was disqualified.
It turned out to be dodgy as well but lot's X5's and what not are perfectly legal.

Quite a few auctioneers/REAs have commercial 4x4s with business adds all over them, what would they declare they are carrying? Laptop & few folders?

Flood

bop1977 wrote: »

Here is the guards take on an x5 "commercial"

https://mobile.twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/593055133304520704

Misunderstanding of an inexpert tweet.

dubscottie

When I worked at the Port Tunnel we had the same.. A quick look inside the door and and a DOE would get you through..

If not Full fare..

Xpro

TrailerBob wrote: »

I've been hearing this for years... "Clamping down" has happened a dozen times in the last few years. Yet to find a Garda even remotely interested in whether or not I'm on a private errand..

Not disputing the motor tax use standpoint, but enforcement is almost impossible unless it's very obvious that it's private use (ie with kids going to the zoo on a Sunday)

Well, it's a bit like changing the CC of the car. It all came to an end in the end.

If you are 100% legit, they haven't got a leg to stand on, but for people exploiting this commercial conversions and don't qualify for it, they can be charged with Fraud by deception, which is not a traffic offense, but an offense against the state.

Eric Cartman

Xpro wrote: »

Well, it's a bit like changing the CC of the car. It all came to an end in the end.

If you are 100% legit, they haven't got a leg to stand on, but for people exploiting this commercial conversions and don't qualify for it, they can be charged with Fraud by deception, which is not a traffic offense, but an offense against the state.

in reality the worst that will come of this is having to pay the back tax at the full rate since the day the conversion / ownership took place. If your prepared to try gamble that then your all good

TrailerBob

Xpro wrote: »

Well, it's a bit like changing the CC of the car. It all came to an end in the end.

If you are 100% legit, they haven't got a leg to stand on, but for people exploiting this commercial conversions and don't qualify for it, they can be charged with Fraud by deception, which is not a traffic offense, but an offense against the state.

The difference between the two is that the cc log book discrepancies were easy to spot in an NCT or whatever. The commercial use issue is not so straight forward to enforce. The typical Garda at a checkpoint is only concerned with the tax, insurance and test being up to date.

Perhaps there's two issues that are seperate, the commercial use, and the qualification of vehicles as a crewcab.... Some of which are ludicrous to say the least

Eric Cartman

TrailerBob wrote: »

The difference between the two is that the cc log book discrepancies were easy to spot in an NCT or whatever. The commercial use issue is not so straight forward to enforce. The typical Garda at a checkpoint is only concerned with the tax, insurance and test being up to date.

Perhaps there's two issues that are seperate, the commercial use, and the qualification of vehicles as a crewcab.... Some of which are ludicrous to say the least

having kids in the car with a cvrt cert would be a pretty dead giveaway, but for a childless person rolling about "I'm on call till x time a few hours away" would be a pretty good reason to have a commercial to hand.

Liam McPoyle

Augeo wrote: »

Quite a few auctioneers/REAs have commercial 4x4s with business adds all over them, what would they declare they are carrying? Laptop & few folders?

It doesnt matter tbh.

Insurers do not care if someone wants a commercial motor policy as in if someone gives their occupation as an accountant but wants to insure a van, it makes no odds once they fit the underwriting criteria.

It was our wonderful government that muddied the waters in terms of saying a commercial vehicle can only be used for commercial purposes.

Every commercial motor policy provides cover for SD+P usage, it simply wouldnt be possible to exclude it.

Business Cat

Business Cat wrote: »

It doesnt matter tbh.

Insurers do not care if someone wants a commercial motor policy as in if someone gives their occupation as an accountant but wants to insure a van, it makes no odds once they fit the underwriting criteria.

It was our wonderful government that muddied the waters in terms of saying a commercial vehicle can only be used for commercial purposes.

Every commercial motor policy provides cover for SD+P usage, it simply wouldnt be possible to exclude it.

I meant for the declaration of use. One declares the vehicle will only be used as a goods carrying vehicle. One would presume camera, folder & laptop wouldn't cut the mustard.

Eric Cartman

Augeo wrote: »

I meant for the declaration of use. One declares the vehicle will only be used as a goods carrying vehicle. One would presume camera, folder & laptop wouldn't cut the mustard.

own goods, even a small toolbox would count.

Gumbo

Augeo wrote: »

I meant for the declaration of use. One declares the vehicle will only be used as a goods carrying vehicle. One would presume camera, folder & laptop wouldn't cut the mustard.

Not specifically. My insurance covers me for carraige of my own goods, or work equipment. I am not covered to carry my goods for reward or sale.

My insurance covers me for my PAYE employment and for SD&P purposes too.

So basically, the gardai have stated on record that they will not be pursuing this issue as long as the car has an NCT or a CVRT and in their opinion, is a civil issues between the car owner and the DoE (Irish Times Arcticle).

Rabbo

The whole system is entirely impractical. It's not reasonable to tell a tradesman who does the vast majority of their mileage for commercial reasons that they can't use their van for the odd personal errand. Are they really expected to purchase, insure and tax another vehicle or tax their van privately?

Del2005

Rabbo wrote: »

The whole system is entirely impractical. It's not reasonable to tell a tradesman who does the vast majority of their mileage for commercial reasons that they can't use their van for the odd personal errand. Are they really expected to purchase, insure and tax another vehicle or tax their van privately?

No they could tax the vehicle they use privately if they use it privately. There's no law against taxing a commercial vehicle private and that's how it should be taxed if you agree with revenue.

Eric Cartman

Del2005 wrote: »

No they could tax the vehicle they use privately if they use it privately. There's no law against taxing a commercial vehicle private and that's how it should be taxed if you agree with revenue.

if you use the car 100% privately pay private tax
if you use it 100% commercially pay commercial tax

but whats the percentage of mixed use that warrants the swap over ?

90% commercial use , 10% private - which tax rate ?

Rabbo

Del2005 wrote: »

No they could tax the vehicle they use privately if they use it privately. There's no law against taxing a commercial vehicle private and that's how it should be taxed if you agree with revenue.

Would you tax your van privately if you were using it the vast majority of the time for business?

kceire

kceire wrote: »

Not specifically. My insurance covers me for carraige of my own goods, or work equipment. I am not covered to carry my goods for reward or sale.

My insurance covers me for my PAYE employment and for SD&P purposes too.

So basically, the gardai have stated on record that they will not be pursuing this issue as long as the car has an NCT or a CVRT and in their opinion, is a civil issues between the car owner and the DoE (Irish Times Arcticle).

Again, I am not referring to insurance.

Gumbo

Del2005 wrote: »

No they could tax the vehicle they use privately if they use it privately. There's no law against taxing a commercial vehicle private and that's how it should be taxed if you agree with revenue.

But here's the thing. For the insurance to be VALID,

Commercial Policy : needs commercial tax and a CVRT.
Private Policy : needs private tax and a NCT.

any company I call to insure/renew, they specifically state that it has to be either way.