Unhappy with builder's finish

Smiley11

Hoping somebody can advise me on my next course of action!

I had a builder in over the last week to fix interior plaster damaged by a leaking roof & also to repair this leaking roof. I also had a wooden floor which needed to be replaced. I have been burned before so thought I was doing right by going through the -snip- site. This guy had good reviews & seemed very genuine, courteous & conscientious...until he got his €1300 deposit.

He scheduled work to begin on bank holiday Monday & stated it would last 2 full days with himself (a roofer apparently) & a carpenter working Monday & a carpenter & general operative working on the second day. He didn't turn up at all on Monday, nor did he call to inform me beforehand, & his excuses were blatant lies, which really irritated me. He was in & out on his own for the next 2 days & did very little. He turned up with a carpenter on Thursday & again was in & out himself. I was happy enough with the carpenters work to be fair & he was there for 6/7 hours Thursday & Friday.

He did the plastering himself despite including a plasterer in the quotation. The finish is shocking! The quotation states that it was to be done to a standard that it would be prepared for painting & it isn't. He plastered over existing lining paper & now there are patches of this paper poking out through the plaster. In my lay-woman's eyes, no amount of sandpaper is going to smooth the finish & I don't feel I should have to expect a painter to prepare walls & ceilings that were meant to be "finished". Its not flush with the wall & will stand out badly when painted.

The quotation stated repairs to 10 slates & repairs to a chimney stack where water was coming in due to a cracked flashing. From what I can see, 3 slates were replaced (1 ill fitting & stands out like a sore thumb) & I can't see any others having been repaired. The flashing & chimney looks untouched to me which has really annoyed me considering he quoted over €1000 for this "work". I expected that cracked flashing would be replaced surely? He spent 2 hours here today while I was at work & that was the total amount of time he spent on the roof externally.

I still owe him approx. €750 to be paid on completion & I really have no idea what to do. Should I withhold the balance & insist on the poor plastering being redone/finished to the best standard for painting & also ask him to show me what exactly he did to my roof? I just feel that I'm being taken advantage of because I'm a woman who is clueless of what to expect as a finished job.

I'd really appreciate any advice as I'm sick at the thought of handing over so much borrowed money for work I'm so unhappy with! I can take photos if they'd be of benefit.

Thanks in advance!

arthur daly

I would withhold last payment untill work is finished to a standard

slimjimmc

Definitely take photos even if you don't see a benefit right now they could be very useful much later on. It might be worth getting someone else to assess the roof.

mickdw

Smiley11 wrote: »

Hoping somebody can advise me on my next course of action!

I had a builder in over the last week to fix interior plaster damaged by a leaking roof & also to repair this leaking roof. I also had a wooden floor which needed to be replaced. I have been burned before so thought I was doing right by going through the -snip-.ie site. This guy had good reviews & seemed very genuine, courteous & conscientious...until he got his €1300 deposit.

He scheduled work to begin on bank holiday Monday & stated it would last 2 full days with himself (a roofer apparently) & a carpenter working Monday & a carpenter & general operative working on the second day. He didn't turn up at all on Monday, nor did he call to inform me beforehand, & his excuses were blatant lies, which really irritated me. He was in & out on his own for the next 2 days & did very little. He turned up with a carpenter on Thursday & again was in & out himself. I was happy enough with the carpenters work to be fair & he was there for 6/7 hours Thursday & Friday.

He did the plastering himself despite including a plasterer in the quotation. The finish is shocking! The quotation states that it was to be done to a standard that it would be prepared for painting & it isn't. He plastered over existing lining paper & now there are patches of this paper poking out through the plaster. In my lay-woman's eyes, no amount of sandpaper is going to smooth the finish & I don't feel I should have to expect a painter to prepare walls & ceilings that were meant to be "finished". Its not flush with the wall & will stand out badly when painted.

The quotation stated repairs to 10 slates & repairs to a chimney stack where water was coming in due to a cracked flashing. From what I can see, 3 slates were replaced (1 ill fitting & stands out like a sore thumb) & I can't see any others having been repaired. The flashing & chimney looks untouched to me which has really annoyed me considering he quoted over €1000 for this "work". I expected that cracked flashing would be replaced surely? He spent 2 hours here today while I was at work & that was the total amount of time he spent on the roof externally.

I still owe him approx. €750 to be paid on completion & I really have no idea what to do. Should I withhold the balance & insist on the poor plastering being redone/finished to the best standard for painting & also ask him to show me what exactly he did to my roof? I just feel that I'm being taken advantage of because I'm a woman who is clueless of what to expect as a finished job.

I'd really appreciate any advice as I'm sick at the thought of handing over so much borrowed money for work I'm so unhappy with! I can take photos if they'd be of benefit.

Thanks in advance!

What kind of money are we'd talking here overall?
He sounds like an absolute cowboy.
Do you know any construction trades people or engineers etc at all who might have a look over the job.
I've a feeling you might find he dumped a load of silicon over any cracks on the flashing which may keep everything dry for a few months but would be a complete botch and would have cost him about 3 euro in materials and 15 mins labour.
Your plastering should be such that you could paint it and you would have a perfect wall. Painter shouldn't have to do any sanding other than casual rubs here and there.

arthur daly

I would withhold last payment untill work is finished to a standard

Smiley11

mickdw wrote: »

What kind of money are we'd talking here overall?
He sounds like an absolute cowboy.
Do you know any construction trades people or engineers etc at all who might have a look over the job.
I've a feeling you might find he dumped a load of silicon over any cracks on the flashing which may keep everything dry for a few months but would be a complete botch and would have cost him about 3 euro in materials and 15 mins labour.
Your plastering should be such that you could paint it and you would have a perfect wall. Painter shouldn't have to do any sanding other than casual rubs here and there.

Its €2200 in total & the plaster certainly isn't of suitable standard for decoration. I don't know anybody in construction & honestly don't have any spare cash to bring in an engineer. I'll try to post a few photos as I know its difficult to gauge without visuals. I have an email from him already looking for his balance!

mickdw

Smiley11 wrote: »

Its €2200 in total & the plaster certainly isn't of suitable standard for decoration. I don't know anybody in construction & honestly don't have any spare cash to bring in an engineer. I'll try to post a few photos as I know its difficult to gauge without visuals. I have an email from him already looking for his balance!

€1000 of roof work should surely have amounted to stripping slates and renewal of lead work. Anything else is a rip off I would have thought.
What part of country are you?

Smiley11

Clearly not in Cork city Mick! 3 slates replaced & no replacement flashing, 2 hours work externally. It doesn't look to me as if any slates were repaired at all. Theres an additional €100 also for supply & fitting of chimney cowls which is fair enough. Below is a description of work alleged to have been done & the balance amount incl. VAT:

"To repair 10 Blue Bangor Natural Slates to the rear of the building & repair to the chimney shaft at the front of the building.
To install white deal flooring to first floor room
To make good with Skimcoat Plaster 5 areas discussed in preperation for painting.
To supply all necessary trades and materials to complete the works.
To install 3 stainless steel chimney cowls ( added to works )
To remove all debree from the works.

€ 851.25"

hotamatua

A few years ago I was getting a stove fitted to be connected to the rads.The guy I employed had done work for us previously and I was content that he was doing this job.First day on the job,he rings me in work to say that everything was going well except our marble mantle piece had broken!He maintained that the piece was poorly constructed.He did offer to build a brick replacement but I would have to pay!One phone call and a solicitors letter later the individual somehow managed to source a marble mantle piece and righted his wrong to a degree.The fact that I had to get a proper tradesman in to sort out other issues as a result of his incompetence is another story but what I,m saying Smilly11 is stand up to these cowboy pieces of dirt.

Smiley11

Thanks hotamatua... I know I need to stand up for myself but I'm just worried about being the ignorant woman getting the runaround! I had to get this work done as a result of yet another cowboy builder so its all a bit demoralising at this stage & so hard to find competent tradesmen when you have no idea of what you're doing. I'm just so angry that the initial quotation stated walls would be finished to painting standard yet hes telling me one will need a light sanding before painting...& thats the one thats relatively flush! There are millimetres in the difference on other sections which I don't want to tackle myself & feel I shouldn't need a decorator to have to do it either.
I need to keep costs down as I'm only getting the work done in order to sell the house as I'm struggling with the mortgage so my brother has kindly loaned me the money for the work to help me out of the rut. I'm just so annoyed that these guys think they can do a half assed job & think nobody will notice a poor finish because they're "clueless"!!

mykillokneel

If your not happy definitely withhold payment until rectified or at least you can use it to get it done properly.
I know the site you used has been snipped but if it's what I think then you usually get more than one quote. If so how did it compare. Sometimes there's more to job ie scaffolding etc did he use some? If flashing is cracked it should be replaced not silicone!! I would normally take photos before and after to show the customer exactly what's been done.
As others have said photos would probably explain better.

Smiley11

I went with the cheapest quote which was obviously not a great idea but I genuinely thought he was decent. He didn't use scaffolding & I'd been quoted over 2k for that in other quotes so obviously that swung me hugely! The flashing wasn't replaced & I'm certain of that. That section of the roof appears untouched & the only thing that I can spot that may be marginally is an inch wide layer of a sandy coloured paste at the joint between 2 flashing pieces.

I can't post photos yet because I haven't got enough posts but will upload them asap so ye might be able to reassure me that I'm not hallucinating or harbouring an exceptionally high standard of finish expectations!

Thanks for your input!

mykillokneel

Fair enough was just wondering would explain why quote was high. Although 2k for scaffolding is alot unless your on a public street! Sandy colour sounds like silicone or grip fill, not really going to last but not the point as you paid for new. I know it's not much help but as you said not the best to always go with cheapest. Did you check out his refs? You may end up having to get someone else to do the work so holding back the rest of the money will help you pay for it.
Would you sell as is and knock the cost of the work off the asking price if you can't afford?

JonathonS

For me the warning lights came on when you mentioned a €1,300 deposit. I would never pay a builder unless I was satisfied with the work completed.

In your situation I would email him back to his request for the balance, list your issues one by one, and refuse to pay a cent more until they are sorted out to your satisfaction.

Smiley11

Thanks lads. I had been quoted €1700 for scaffolding plus a €350 charge for a council permit as the front of the house is on a public terrace. I did check his references on -snip- & while his weren't as glowing as others, they were pretty good. I can't afford to sink much more money into the house before I put it on the market & as I see it, I'd have to employ another plasterer to fix it as I don't think a painter could or should have to treat the work again in order to give a good finish. I brought a colleague up to look at it today as I was unsure as to whether I'm overeacting but he called it "cat altogether" & said he certainly wouldn't accept such a poor standard in the house hes building! He said theres no way anyone should accept rough plaster & edges a couple of mils deep as decorating standard & I'm inclined to agree. He also mentioned the "cowboy" word again & I shivered. He couldn't see the chimney repair either so I felt somewhat less of an idiot.

I'm going to send him a quick mail now to let him know that I'm compiling a snag list & need a complete breakdown of the roof work. I'm just not seeing €1000 of materials & labour in 2 hours work. I also feel that I need to take issue with the fact that a plasterer was promised as well as a general operative & I got neither, yet still got charged the same for such poor work. Hes clearly not a plasterer & really shouldn't be asking me for a review in my current angry state!

shamrock55

Why in gods name would anyone pay a deposit for work not yet done, its asking for trouble, i worked as a tradesman for over ten years and never once asked for a payment up front

mykillokneel

To be honest I'd be wary if a couple of tradesmen were putting up scaffolding and this guy just did it from a ladder, is it a bungalow? It's hard to work on a slate roof of a roof ladder if it's a couple of storeys up especially flashing a chimney. Also if it's a public place and something fell off you'd be in trouble. The 1700 + 350 is standard on a two storey on the street. Does he have insurance? He probably wanted to start on bank holiday to avoid someone calling but got lazy! !
I lose work from guys 'doing from a ladder' but you can't work properly that way. Sounds like he charged low enough to get the job but high enough to cut corners and make money.
I can understand your frustration on this, not all tradesman are cowboys but if your tight for money its natural to go with the cheapest. I would ask him once to fix or he won't get paid then stick to it and don't pay but it'll drag on if he keeps coming back. Not much point in fixing plaster if the next rainy spell shows up his poor roofing repairs.

Smiley11

I presumed a deposit was standard to be completely honest & thought that in his requiring it that he was being professional. A friend suggested I ask him for a cash price & he would have none of it for bookeeping reasons so again I thought him professional! I'm learning a sore lesson now even if its too late.

Its a 3 storey terraced house but the scaffolding was just totally out of my range so I settled for the cheap quote. He has insurance & this was the first thing that he forwarded me so I thought him meticulous. I have nobody to blame but myself I know & feel very foolish.

I emailed him just now that I'm compiling a snag list & am most unhappy with the plasterwork which I feel will have to be redone by an actual plasterer. I've also requested a full breakdown on the cost of materials & labour for the roof & asked him to forward the "before" photo that he took so that I can compare. I think I have one myself but I'll look at his anyway as it would be more up to date. I also asked him to provide a detailed list of what exactly was done on the roof.

Its quite a mess but at least I have the final payment to fall back on & I've told him that I will not accept any work that is less than perfect as I've been taken advantage of before & he knew this from the outset.

Thanks again for the valuable input lads!

mykillokneel

His insurance wouldn't be worth the paper its written on if he fell off from a 3 story house. Hindsight and all that. I personally don't ask for a deposit on lower value jobs like that but if handing over money upfront then 20% would be max and you should have received receipt for this as soon as you handed over.
I know the plaster is a concern as you can see it but it's easier to repair than the roof. You can't trust the repair so that's more of a concern in my opinion.
You said you don't know anyone to have a look in your previous posts, is there anyone at all?

Smiley11

Oh god! This just gets worse! I didn't get a receipt at all but it was an electronic payment into his bank account so at least theres a record. My brother will go mad if I tell him about any of this craic & I couldn't blame him. I was told today that a colleague of mine may be married to a roofer so I'll ask her because I don't have any connections at all in the building trade. My Dad was my handyman all my life & maintained the house fantastically until he couldn't any more the poor ol divil so theres more of a sting in the tail that I can't afford to replace his immaculate workmanship or find an honest worker in my price range.

mykillokneel

You can find honest tradesmen in your price range its your price range that's unrealistic for that kind of work especially if you got a couple of quotes higher with scaffolding. Obviously it doesn't guarantee good workmanship but there's a better chance.
If your colleagues husband doesn't work,
Would you chance the other builders who quoted again seeing as some of the work is done you might get it done for less, they may tell you where to go but nothing to lose.

Smiley11

I'll work something out. I had a message from a neighbour that a man was pounding on my front door this morning & a missed call from him around the same time so thats a bit worrying. I think at this stage I'll just have to leave the roof be & hope that its repaired adequately. I'd say realistically it needs to be replaced but I won't be doing that before I sell it. I have another few small jobs to get done as I couldn't sell it in good conscience if they weren't so I'll just have to stand my ground with this man & hope for a better result.

DesperateDan2

Smiley - have been reading your post and believe me when i say I understand your frustration.
I have a lot of work that needs doing too but getting a reliable and honest tradesman is proving to be difficult, if not impossible. I have had many come to look at what needed doing and I have had the following happen to me.
1. A promise they will get back to be with a quote which never comes
2. Over the top quotes. I suspect this is either the jobs are too small and its their way of telling they aren't interested or they will get out of bed to do it if I'm stupid enough to pay them what they ask for.
3. An agreement but then kept waiting for them to start until I run out of patience. Haven't figured this one out yet. Could be they landed a bigger job and so put me on the back burner hoping I will still be there when they have a gap?
The other reason I don't get anywhere with them I suspect is I make it clear that I if I accept their quote, I expect a Job specification outlining how the work will be done, breakdown of materials and cost and an estimated date for start and completion of the job and agreement for payments to be be made at the end of each phase.

It helps to know how any work you're planning to undertake should be done so you know what to expect. DIY books and YouTube is an excellent educator. I learned so much that tradesmen were asking me if I was a surveyor! - Having said all this, I am no closer to finding a good and reliable tradesman. Could this be because:
a) I know too much about the trade and the tradesmen I have seen so far are only who masquerading as one and know I won't be easily fooled?
b) I won't accept work to begin without a written agreement or pay any deposits before they have even started.

Incidentally, any work undertaken by anyone calling himself a professional should be finished to professional standards and you have a right to withhold payment until they have delivered their side of the deal. Be firm and pay only when you are totally satisfied. Good luck with everything else. DD

Strolling Bones

DesperateDan2 wrote: »

getting a reliable and honest tradesman is proving to be difficult, if not impossible.

I make it clear that I if I accept their quote, I expect a Job specification outlining how the work will be done, breakdown of materials and cost and an estimated date for start and completion of the job and agreement for payments to be be made at the end of each phase.

I am no closer to finding a good and reliable tradesman. Could this be because:

Incidentally, any work undertaken by anyone calling himself a professional should be finished to professional standards

You are failing here because you are demanding things from an industry that quite frankly at the domestic scale the culture is not profesional.

I do not mean that the guys are not trained or skilled at what they do in terms of building workmanship ( some are some are not so much) but few have what one may call business skills for want of a better term.

I think you may well be intimidating a lot of them away - baby and bathwater.

I post this to help. You may need to re think your approach of you continure to have have works not done.

Smiley11

I've found it so difficult over the years & accept with a very minimal budget & maximum naivety that I was essentially cutting corners myself & I've learned a sore lesson. I have a great recommendation for a builder for my next project & while hes more expensive, I'm not putting myself through this stress ever again!

With regard to my current situation, I emailed the cowboy 2.5 weeks ago requesting a breakdown of costs, materials & labour as well as a breakdown of what was actually done to my roof. I haven't received a response to date which speaks volumes. I've gotten phone calls & texts looking for money alright but if he won't respond to my documentable correspondence, then hes being met with the same response from me.

I'm going to email him again to inform him that I'll be employing a professional plasterer to repair the damage that he caused to my walls & that he may tackle my roof again...if he erects a scaffolding which I won't be paying for! I can't believe that my own home insurance was jeopardized by his corner cutting. If he says he doesn't need scaffolding then I'll be requesting a letter from his insurance company as well as contact details for the author of said letter, stating that hes fully covered without scaffolding...can't see that happening to be honest.

I've had a quick look at the Sale of Goods & Supply of Services Act which states the following:

"The supplier has the necessary skill to provide the service
The service will be provided with proper care and diligence
The materials used will be sound and that goods supplied with the service will be of merchantable quality

In a service contract, at the very least, you should ensure that you know the price of the service and the time that it will take to complete the agreed work."

No. 1 was clearly untrue in this guys case, which subsequently meant no. 2 wasn't adhered to & ultimately no. 3 was not delivered. I'm going to ring Citizens Advice in any case tomorrow to see if they can advise me on where I stand at this stage.

I'm just hoping that he'll walk away as I really don't trust or want him anywhere near my home again. He couldn't do the job properly the first time & I seriously doubt he'll fork out for scaffolding which will cost him double what he perceives as being owed. If I can get him off my back at least I can bring in a proper plasterer & end this delay in getting my house on the market! I just feel very intimidated, stressed & so so foolish in all of this but at least once I have this house sold I won't be constrained financially from employing the best standard of tradesman.