Mayweather+Pac past opponents,boxing legacies, post here!

Panic E

TheNap wrote: »

Name someone he should of fought in their prime at his weight ?

It's a double negative. Name someone he has? A-level/elite fighters

Chrissybhoy

It's very hard to keep finding two fighters in their absolute prime

TheNap

Chrissybhoy wrote: »

It's very hard to keep finding two fighters in their absolute prime

There was 2 five years ago. The fight was agreed . 50/50 split agreed . Mayweather pulled out of the fight because he had a phobia of needles .

Then in 2015 he had 12 injections in the lead up to the fight .


Oh no wait a minute it was the other guy.


The hate for Mayweather is incredible.


Hands down the best of our generation.

Panic E

TheNap wrote: »

Hardly his fault there was none at his level ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=forstYqvDUI

Lot's of names in there. Really interesting anyway. He is the cherry picking king

TheNap

Cant see that . Can you list them ?

Panic E

TheNap wrote: »

I'd love to see Mayweather and Khan.

Its the best fight out there at WW entertainment wise.

Other than the Pacquaio rematch (or GGG) I'd have to agree with that

TheNap

Panic E wrote: »

Other than the Pacquaio rematch (or GGG) I'd have to agree with that

GG should go up in weight instead of looking to go down IMO

Big Ears

Panic E wrote: »

I agree with you actually. Say Guerrero, Ortiz and Maidana for example...

Nobody can name an A level guy he fought in their prime and at their best weight.

Diego Corrales, Jose Luis Castillo (x2), Famoso Hernandez, Jesus Chavez, Chop Chop and Maidana (who you've strangely listed as an easy opponent).

Chrissybhoy

Big Ears wrote: »

Diego Corrales, Jose Luis Castillo (x2), Famoso Hernandez, Jesus Chavez, Chop Chop and Maidana (who you've strangely listed as an easy opponent).

I'd add Hatton to that at the time he fought him

Big Ears

Chrissybhoy wrote: »

I'd add Hatton to that at the time he fought him

Hatton would be added to a much larger list of guys in their prime, but he did use the exclusion criteria of 'at their best weight', which was 140 lb for Ricky. So He had to be left out.

Talib Fiasco

I think a lot of those lads could not be considered "A" fighters tbh... I think Judah deserves a mention though, even though he had performed his chicken dance by then, he still was a top top fighter back then

Big Ears

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

I think a lot of those lads could not be considered "A" fighters tbh... I think Judah deserves a mention though, even though he had performed his chicken dance by then, he still was a top top fighter back then

I think a lot of people would contest the level of some of those guys, but I feel the majority of that would be looking at their careers retrospectively rather than at the time.
Chop Chop is a guy most would probably question when talking about A level fighters. But he was a solid title holder not long before, including a win over a prime Randall Bailey and only lost the title to a prime Judah on a close split decision. He then gave a prime version of Floyd by far his toughest fight at Light-Welterweight. Now he's spent the last 9 years between B level and outright journeyman, but at the time he fought Floyd he was an A level guy.


Judah I left out because I felt he was best at Light-Welterweight, and it was arguable to say whether he was still in his prime or was just shortly past it.

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

I think a lot of people would contest the level of some of those guys, but I feel the majority of that would be looking at their careers retrospectively rather than at the time.
Chop Chop is a guy most would probably question when talking about A level fighters. But he was a solid title holder not long before, including a win over a prime Randall Bailey and only lost the title to a prime Judah on a close split decision. He then gave a prime version of Floyd by far his toughest fight at Light-Welterweight. Now he's spent the last 9 years between B level and outright journeyman, but at the time he fought Floyd he was an A level guy.


Judah I left out because I felt he was best at Light-Welterweight, and it was arguable to say whether he was still in his prime or was just shortly past it.

Chop chop only gave Floyd a tough fight because Floyd decided to act tough and negelct his defense a bit. Floyd still won fairly comfortably. Out-landed Chop chop by a considerable amount. The Ndou and Brussells and Chop chop fights are excellent examples of Floyd's talents.

Panic E

TheNap wrote: »

GG should go up in weight

I'd say the same thing about Floyd.

Big Ears wrote: »

Diego Corrales, Jose Luis Castillo (x2), Famoso Hernandez, Jesus Chavez, Chop Chop and Maidana (who you've strangely listed as an easy opponent).

Most of them (bar Corrales, who Floyd wouldn't fight at 135) are not A level/elite fighters.

All you have to do is look at their records and who they fought, and who was around at the time.

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

Chop chop only gave Floyd a tough fight because Floyd decided to act tough and negelct his defense a bit. Floyd still won fairly comfortably. Out-landed Chop chop by a considerable amount. The Ndou and Brussells and Chop chop fights are excellent examples of Floyd's talents.

While you're right that that the small amount of success Corley had in that fight was Floyd being all macho, Floyd pretty much fought that way for all 3 of his 140 lb fights. He stood right in front of Gatti while he beat the piss out of him, only unlike Corley, Gatti couldn't lay a glove on him. They certainly are alright, that really was him at his absolute prime, and when he still showed plenty of offensive capability.

Panic E wrote: »

Most of them (bar Corrales, who Floyd wouldn't fight at 135) are not A level/elite fighters.

All you have to do is look at their records and who they fought, and who was around at the time.

Why should he of fought him at 135 ?, both were Super-Featherweight champions going into the fight (Corrales got stripped for no reason shortly before), and despite Chico talking about how hard it was to make weight he still spent another 3 years fighting in that weight class before moving up.

I will agree that they're not necessarily all Elite fighters, but then again my definition of Elite fighters would be guys who'd be in or around the top 20 p4p in the sport. However A level and Elite are different things to me, and while it's easy to say a guy like Corley isn't A level now, it's a different thing viewing what level the guy was at at leading into the fight in 2004.

Now you can criticise Floyd for not fighting quite a few guys over the years. Joel Casamayor & Acelino Freitas at Super-Featherweight, Paul Spadafora at Lightweight, Kostya Tszyu, Ricky Hatton & Miguel Cotto at Light-Welterweight, Antonio Margarito and Paul Williams at Welterweight, but you can't fight everyone and at least a couple of those guys he did eventually face. But to say he never fought a top fighter in their prime just simply isn't true.

Panic E

Big Ears wrote: »

Why should he of fought him at 135 ?

Corrales wanted it 135. His best weight at the time obviously.

TheNap wrote: »

Cant see that . Can you list them ?

It covers not only who he didn't fight but who he chose to instead.

Big Ears wrote: »

But to say he never fought a top fighter in their prime just simply isn't true.

I said in their prime, and at their best weight. (it is important factor no doubt)

Big Ears

Panic E wrote: »

Corrales wanted it 135. His best weight at the time obviously.



It covers not only who he didn't fight but who he chose to instead.



I said in their prime, and at their best weight. (it is important factor no doubt)

But both were reigning Champions at the time at Super-Featherweight, if Chico couldn't make the weight anymore then he shouldn't have taken the fight and just moved to Lightweight. But he actually got pissed off when the IBF stripped him and stayed fighting at Super-Featherweight 3 years after the Mayweather fight !

What you are suggesting is like Danny Garcia fighting Lamont Peterson at Welterweight (which pissed most people off), only Danny would now go back to 140 lbs and fight there for the next 3 years.


Castillo wasn't prime ?, because you can't for a second say his best weight wasn't Lightweight.

Panic E

Corrales was in his prime, and also an A level/elite fighter (same thing). But there is a disparity about the weight.

The guy was a shell of a fighter come fight night. He had serious trouble making weight and was drained as it gets.

This was discussed already over in the other thread. Even so, is that the only live opponent he fought his whole career?

Big Ears

Panic E wrote: »

Castillo was in his prime, and also an A level/elite fighter (same thing). But there is a disparity about the weight.

The guy was a shell of a fighter come fight night. He had serious trouble making weight and was drained as it gets.

This was discussed already over in the other thread. Even so, is that the only live opponent he fought his whole career?

I don't agree that Elite level/A level are the same thing. Any fighter who is top of his weight class would have to be considered A level, but that doesn't necessarily make them an Elite level fighter.

Corrales was indeed drained, but that was his own fault. He'd made Super-Featherweight fine plenty of times before and plenty of times after. Mayweather wasn't to blame for that.

Floyd has fought bucket loads of live opponents in his career (although less in recent times), but what you asked was what A level fighters in their prime and at their best weightclass had Floyd fought.

So holding to the same standard and deeming people the quality of DeMarcus Corley and Jesus Chavez not A level the time they fought Floyd. What A level fighters did Roy Jones fight in their prime and at their best weight ?

Panic E

Well, that lads here reckon that most of the fighters you mentioned aren't A level. DeMarcus Corley was a solid opponent, but not elite.

As for Roy Jones, I dunno. Calzagahe, Trinidad, Tarver? I dont see how it's relevant to the discussion at hand in any case, he's not current.

So Corrales was the only elite fighter Mayweather fought is his prime? And at his best weight (with an asterix). Hardly the stuff of legend is it!

Marcelo Salas

Panic E wrote: »

Well, that lads here reckon that most of the fighters you mentioned aren't A level. DeMarcus Corley was a solid opponent, but not elite.

As for Roy Jones, I dunno. Calzagahe, Trinidad, Tarver? I dont see how it's relevant to the discussion at hand in any case, he's not current.

So Corrales was the only elite fighter Mayweather fought is his prime? And at his best weight (with an asterix). Hardly the stuff of legend is it!

It's relevant as you are being needlessly picky about who Floyd fought.

Talib Fiasco

Toney and Hopkins are two of Roy's best wins definitely. He easily beat a prime Toney and beat a raw but still decent Hopkins too.

Panic E

It's not needless. The guy claims he is the best boxer ever of all time. Specifically greater than Ali, Ray Robinson and Pacquiao etc.

Big Ears

Panic E wrote: »

Well, that lads here reckon that most of the fighters you mentioned aren't A level. DeMarcus Corley was a solid opponent, but not elite.

As for Roy Jones, I dunno. Calzagahe, Trinidad, Tarver? I dont see how it's relevant to the discussion at hand in any case, he's not current.

So Corrales was the only elite fighter Mayweather fought is his prime? And at his best weight (with an asterix). Hardly the stuff of legend is it!

Not elite, but I would regard him as A level at that time, hence why I make a distinction between an A level guy and an elite fighter.

Calzaghe wasn't prime and the fight wasn't at Calzaghe's best weight. Trinidad was shot and the fight was 4 weightclasses above his best weight.
Tarver is correct, but he lost to him twice and arguably lost the first time too.


Eh why doesn't Castillo count ?

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

Toney and Hopkins are two of Roy's best wins definitely. He easily beat a prime Toney and beat a raw but still decent Hopkins too.

Under Panic E's criteria Hopins doesn't count as he wasn't prime, and Toney probably fits in if you feel his prime was at Super-Middleweight as opposed to Middle (which is what most would believe), however like Corrales he should have an asterix there as he was struggling badly at the weight when he fought Jones and moved up straight after (never to return).

Deiseboy01

walshb wrote: »

Brook and Khan are level enough on merit I would say. Brook does have a belt, that's about it. As for name recognition and what would likley be a seller then Khan is way ahead IMO. Khan also has more chance to beat Mayweather.

Brook is no way near Khan on merit, look at who they've fought. Khan way more deserving of the mayweather fight imo.

Panic E

Big Ears wrote: »

Not elite, but I would regard him as A level at that time, hence why I make a distinction between an A level guy and an elite fighter.

I never said Castillo doesn't count. Also, I will have to check out Corleys record in more detail to see if what you are saying is true or not.

Forget elite then as it's only going to complicates things. A or B. Also, why do you want to compare his career to Roy Jones? Pointless.

Surely Pacquaio's would be more relevant if we are trying to decide on who was the best fighter of this generation, let alone all times.

Big Ears

Panic E wrote: »

I never said Castillo doesn't count. Also, I will have to check out Corleys record in more detail to see if what you are saying is true or not.

Forget elite then as it's only going to complicates things. A or B. Also, why do you want to compare his career to Roy Jones? Pointless.

Surely Pacquaio's would be more relevant if we are trying to decide on who was the best fighter of this generation, let alone all times.

Keep in mind his career went pretty downhill not long after that fight. If I were you I'd go and watch his fights with Bailey, Judah and Mayweather. That'll tell you how good Corley was. A shot Corley even managed to beat Paul McCloskey only a few years ago.

Because imo Roy Jones is the best fighter there has ever been. Now you could argue there's fighter with better records out there, but ability wise no one has ever been better than Jones. Yet if you scrutinise him using the same criteria you've used to judge Mayweather, then Jones career looks pretty ****.
Basically what I'm saying is you haven't taken a fair approach to viewing Mayweather's career.

Panic E

Big Ears wrote: »

Because imo Roy Jones is the best fighter there has ever been. Now you could argue there's fighter with better records out there, but ability wise no one has ever been better than Jones. Yet if you scrutinise him using the same criteria you've used to judge Mayweather, then Jones career looks pretty ****.
Basically what I'm saying is you haven't taken a fair approach to viewing Mayweather's career.

I must have missed the McCloskey fight with him and I was following his career.

Well man, skills and ability is all very good and well (I loved Roy Jones fighting style)

But it's all about the quality of competition faced really. Otherwise we can all be "TNBT"

Big Ears

Panic E wrote: »

I must have missed the McCloskey fight with him and I was following his career.

Well man, skills and ability is all very good and well (I loved Roy Jones fighting style)

But it's all about the quality of competition faced really. Otherwise we can all be "TNBT"

It was his fight after Prescott. Was a funny stoppage too, there had been moments in the fight where youd've said fair enough if the ref stopped it, but McCloskey seemed okay (well slightly wobbly) when he waved it off.

If it's all about the competition faced then Peter Buckley must be a ****ing superstar .

Jones fought plenty of World Class opposition, certainly enough to be able to rank him compared to other great fighters. But simply fighting more elite fighters is not enough to make you a greater fighter. Afterall if we use a fighter who's come up in this thread; Pacquiao. He's fought more elite fighters than Roy Jones, but you'd have to be retarded to rank him above Jones in terms of who was the greater fighter.

Panic E

I must check it out, maybe I did see it. Went through a difficult few years there. Well, competition faced and beaten man, stop being so bloody well pedantic!

What makes the better fighter, being undefeated? I'm pretty sure that beating elite fighters is the benchmark. You wouldn't rank Pacquaio above RJJ as an ATG?

Big Ears

Panic E wrote: »

I must check it out, maybe I did see it. Went through a difficult few years there. Well, competition faced and beaten man, stop being so bloody well pedantic!

What makes the better fighter, being undefeated? I'm pretty sure that beating elite fighters is the benchmark. You wouldn't rank Pacquaio above RJJ as an ATG?

No, being undefeated is irrelevant. Sven Ottke retired undefeated, but he was no great. Performances against all high quality fighters, whether elite or slightly below would be the benchmark. But it's a very qualitative measure of assessment. You can't simply say Fighter A beat 4 elite fighters and fighter B only beat 3, so fighter A must be better than B.

I certainly wouldn't, and I would assume neither would 95% of people outside of the Philippines.

Panic E

Big Ears wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't

Ok so you don't rate the Pacman higher than Roy Jones.

Fair enough, but I don't agree. What about higher than Floyd?

Big Ears

Panic E wrote: »

Ok so you don't rate the Pacman higher than Roy Jones.

Fair enough, but I don't agree. What about higher than Floyd?

No I can't rate him higher than Floyd either, and again I believe 95% of people outside of the Philippines would agree. Particularly after last weekend.

Perhaps a new thread is in order to discuss this, afterall we gotten quite far away from the topic of Khan not fighting Mayweather (largely my fault I admit).

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

No I can't rate him higher than Floyd either, and again I believe 95% of people outside of the Philippines would agree. Particularly after last weekend.

Perhaps a new thread is in order to discuss this, afterall we gotten quite far away from the topic of Khan not fighting Mayweather (largely my fault I admit).

But surely the fact that Floyd squeaked past the far smaller man how does last weekend prove anything? Last weekend should not even come into their rankings. It was an absolute shambles of a "fight." It wasn't a boxing match with anything to take away from it.

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

But surely the fact that Floyd squeaked past the far smaller man how does last weekend prove anything? Last weekend should not even come into their rankings. It was an absolute shambles of a "fight." It wasn't a boxing match with anything to take away from it.

I never said last weekend proved anything, but I feel it will effect the mindset of a lot of people when ranking these fighters.

Floyd would be ranked ahead of Pacquiao for me anyway.

Panic E

Big Ears wrote: »

No I can't rate him higher than Floyd either, and again I believe 95% of people outside of the Philippines would agree.

Total slant, that's twice you've said it now it too. He definitely ranks higher than Floyd.

The 'Pacquaio fans are all from the Phillipenes" card is way out of date also and plain silly.

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

I never said last weekend proved anything, but I feel it will effect the mindset of a lot of people when ranking these fighters.

Floyd would be ranked ahead of Pacquiao for me anyway.

You said particularly after last weekend. I see what you mean, but it could be implied that Floyd gets the better rating due to last week's fight. IMO he gets a lesser rating from last week than the smaller man.

Big Ears

Panic E wrote: »

Total slant, that's twice you've said it now it too. He definitely ranks higher than Floyd.

The 'Pacquaio fans are all from the Phillipenes" card is way out of date also and plain silly.

I can say it a 3rd time if you like ?

It would be my perception that bias is effecting your view in this case. You clearly are a huge fan of Pacquiao, while at the same time have an extreme distaste for Mayweather.
I personally thought Erik Morales won the 3rd fight with Marco Antonio Barrera, but 95% would disagree. Then again I'm a huge Morales fan and there's a reasonable chance it is bias which caused me to see the fight that way, so despite Morales deserving the fight imo, I still understand most would disagree with me.

The few times I've watched Vassily Jirov vs James Toney I've scored Jirov a 1 point winner every time. But then again I'm a fan of Jirov and never really liked Toney, so again I feel the majority would disagree with me on this (although not as much as the Morales-MAB 3).

It's perfectly fine for you to believe Pacquiao is a greater fighter than Mayweather, but you should realise most will not agree with you on that.....rightly or wrongly.


Pacquiao is a national idol in the Philippines, a country of over 100 million people. I'm not trying to say all his fans are from there (infact I've never seen this) as he's one of the most popular fighters in the sport. But if you polled that 100 milliom people on who was the greater fighter, I doubt you'd get over 10% saying Mayweather. You really think that'd be reflected among general boxing fans ?

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

You said particularly after last weekend. I see what you mean, but it could be implied that Floyd gets the better rating due to last week's fight. IMO he gets a lesser rating from last week than the smaller man.

In my own opinion it makes no difference to how these fighters are ranked. Both are well past prime now anyway. But the general boxing fan will still put weight into it, which is what I meant by especially after last weekend.

Panic E

Big Ears wrote: »

I can say it a 3rd time if you like ?

I was referring to you saying his fan base was in the Phillipines btw, not that you hold Floyd higher.

Well, I am a Pacquaio fan and not a fan of Floyd that's true. Or I was a huge fan of Manny shall we say.

I appreciate his career has been on the the decline. However, I personally very much do rate it above Floyd's.

cowzerp

Ancient Mural wrote: »

I'm gobsmacked that anyone can rate Pacquiao ahead of Mayweather.

it's just bs, Floyd would have beat Manny at any time, Floyd style wise was all wrong for Manny, Floyd made Canelo, Marquez and Manny look amateur, how would Manny do against Canelo?! i guesss 1st 3 round ko for Canelo

Manny was a great boxer, but he is no Floyd, he also fought like a coward last week, or should i say chose not to fight.

Panic E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VA1QELLC3g

Ancient Mural wrote: »

I'm gobsmacked that anyone can rate Pacquiao ahead of Mayweather.

Well, hopefully this helps with your dismay. Both of their resumes compared.

Talib Fiasco

Manny's resume and achievements are ahead of Floyd by some distance. Floyd has his achievements (great achievements btw) and his 0 that's it. I hate the fact that if someone has a 0 that they're given God status. It's the same with people thinking Rocky Marciano was as good if not better than Ali etc. I think Calzaghe might have been the best SMW we've seen but again he's given God status for his 0.

SHOVELLER

Panic E wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VA1QELLC3g

Well, hopefully this helps with your dismay. Both of their resumes compared.

Doesnt help at all as no way I'm sitting through listening to that:D