Modern cars and their stupid big wheel arches...

MTBD

Anyone else of the opinion that the ride and handling of almost all new cars is being destroyed due to overly big wheels. I have yet to get a drive in a car in Ireland with wheels that are 18 inche or more that hasnt had its ride and handling utterly destroyed by the wheels. Our roads just arent suitable for them. The cars just get so unsettled and lose traction over any bumps. Its actually very difficult to drive on a bit with them.

I was looking at getting a set of 17s for my car and because of the massive arches it would look a bit silly. All these cars like the M3/5 and C63 etc that get rave reviews for their handling must be absolute horror shows on Irish roads. I cant image they are even fast on bumpy roads. Surely a car with a much higher profile tyre would be safer, more comfortable and handle better on the average Irish road or any road really. Ive been in other countries whos roads are every bit as poor as ours.

Sure they look nice but they are expensive and ruin the cars balance. If the arches of moder cars werent so big then maybe we could go back to a smaller wheel. Why dont car manufacturers realise this?

colm_mcm

They want to sell cars though. People like big wheels.

challengemaster

And, y'know, it's hard to fit huge brakes under 15" wheels.

pablo128

Low profile - Harsh ride but better handling.

High profile - Nice cushiony ride, but a bit wallowy in the bends.

You can't have both, I'm afraid. Think about it. You want the nice soft ride, epic roadholding, and wheels that fill the arches. I say that's impossible, apart from high end luxury cars.

colm_mcm

Tis not all bad news. Opel are fitting the insignia with 15 inch alloys on the basic models

challengemaster

pablo128 wrote: »

I say that's impossible, apart from high end luxury cars.

Name one luxury car that comes with 15" rims :pac:

pred racer

You could always fit smaller wheels with higher profile tyres!

Slicemeister

Any amount of 20' on new A4 and A6, surely not standard spec?

MTBD

pablo128 wrote: »

Low profile - Harsh ride but better handling.

High profile - Nice cushiony ride, but a bit wallowy in the bends.

You can't have both, I'm afraid. Think about it. You want the nice soft ride, epic roadholding, and wheels that fill the arches. I say that's impossible, apart from high end luxury cars.

But you dont have better handling if your tyre cant handle the bump you have just hit and the wheel is now momentarily airborne. Better handling on a perfectly smooth track perhaps but severly diminished over bumps. You dont see many rally cars in Ireland with very low profile tyres, they all run tyres with significantly high tyre profiles.

pablo128

challengemaster wrote: »

Name one luxury car that comes with 15" rims :pac:

I'll do better. The 1983 Mercedes 500 SEL rocked a set of 14's!:pac:

Voodoomelon

I agree with the OP, most saloons now have bulbous shapes, large overhangs and massive arches. And most people here only choose a small wheel anyways (16-17).

So why not make the body shape accommodate/compliment the smaller wheel that most people choose? Unless on average, most international buyers do choose larger wheels.

MTBD

Slicemeister wrote: »

Any amount of 20' on new A4 and A6, surely not standard spec?

Considering how poor the ride in Audis has traditionally been they must be horrific things.

challengemaster

MTBD wrote: »

But you dont have better handling if your tyre cant handle the bump you have just hit and the wheel is now momentarily airborne. Better handling on a perfectly smooth track perhaps but severly diminished over bumps. You dont see many rally cars in Ireland with very low profile tyres, they all run tyres with significantly high tyre profiles.

That's more to do with unsprung weight

Voodoomelon

Slicemeister wrote: »

Any amount of 20' on new A4 and A6, surely not standard spec?

I've never seen either with 20" wheels. I can't imagine 20" is even an option on the A4.

colm_mcm

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I agree with the OP, most saloons now have bulbous shapes, large overhangs and massive arches. And most people here only choose a small wheel anyways (16-17).

So why not make the body shape accommodate/compliment the smaller wheel that most people choose? Unless on average, most international buyers do choose larger wheels.

You end up with something like an old model Hyundai Sonata if you do that

pablo128

MTBD wrote: »

But you dont have better handling if your tyre cant handle the bump you have just hit and the wheel is now momentarily airborne. Better handling on a perfectly smooth track perhaps but severly diminished over bumps. You dont see many rally cars in Ireland with very low profile tyres, they all run tyres with significantly high tyre profiles.

If your cars wheels are airborne after hitting a bump, you need new shocks or you will need new wheels soon.

What size profile would an Irish Rally car have, just out of interest?

Supergurrier

BMW are at it aswell

Slicemeister

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I've never seen either with 20" wheels. I can't imagine 20" is even an option on the A4.

Mostly these.


http://www.bespokeoem.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/650x650/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/6/1/6139727994_e4639b3c08_2.jpg

challengemaster

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I've never seen either with 20" wheels. I can't imagine 20" is even an option on the A4.

The 6 series has 22" as an option IIRC.

MTBD

challengemaster wrote: »

That's more to do with unsprung weight

Maybe a bit of it, but obviously the high profile tyre is not a big enough disadvantage to discourage its use. And unsprung weight propbably matters a whole lot more to an 1000kg stripped out rally car than to a 1650kg road car with all the luxuries.

Cyrus

Slicemeister wrote: »

Mostly these.


http://www.bespokeoem.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/650x650/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/6/1/6139727994_e4639b3c08_2.jpg

They are 19"

MTBD

colm_mcm wrote: »

You end up with something like an old model Hyundai Sonata if you do that

Ha, tbf I dont think the wheel size is the problem with that design.

challengemaster

MTBD wrote: »

Maybe a bit of it, but obviously the high profile tyre is not a big enough disadvantage to discourage its use.

You don't really have any other option, you either go small wheels for less unsprung weight and get bigger profile tyres that fit, or you go larger wheel + smaller tyre.

And unsprung weight propbably matters a whole lot more to an 1000kg stripped out rally car than to a 1650kg road car with all the luxuries.

Indeed, but you brought up the point about rally cars

Also rally cars don't need as much grip as track cars, because they mostly slide through corners.

Slicemeister

Cyrus wrote: »

They are 19"

Just used that as an illustration, the ones I've seen( a dozen or more) are 20s. Most are imports but a few on Irish plates sporting them. I've 18s on my own car can't imagine the uncomfortable feeling facing a back road on those shod with anything lower than 225 50

mickdw

I've been running on 18 inch wheels for 10 years in North mayo. They are fine as long as you don't go below 40 or 45 Profile imo.
19s on my car with 35 profile are absolute pigs to drive on.

Cyrus

Slicemeister wrote: »

Just used that as an illustration, the ones I've seen( a dozen or more) are 20s. Most are imports but a few on Irish plates sporting them. I've 18s on my own car can't imagine the uncomfortable feeling facing a back road on those shod with anything lower than 225 55

Unless I'm mistaken the oem ones are 19 on the a4 a5 so they are probably some rep knock off, most likely on rubbish tyres aswell to add to the fail

Senecio

Maybe we just need to build better roads?

R.O.R

colm_mcm wrote: »

Tis not all bad news. Opel are fitting the insignia with 15 inch alloys on the basic models

They are 16's Colm.

pablo128

There is a case for smaller wheels with a high profile, if you live in an area with bad roads, or simply prefer a smoother ride. That's understandable. I could probably put 18s on my Avensis which currently has 17s. But the tyres would be like rashers on the wheels. As it's primarily the family workhorse so to speak, that would be pointless. My brother has the same car on 16s and is a smoother drive. But if I'm honest I drive her on a bit, so the 17s suit me more. In saying that, my driving generally wouldn't be on poor roads.

colm_mcm

R.O.R wrote: »

They are 16's Colm.

You and your facts

ShaunieVW

I've never had anything over 18s. I've never thought they were uncomfortable at all. Currently on 17s with 225/45s perfect mix of low profile and comfort IMO! The company I work for got there new company cars last year. There was a few a8s and I thought the wheels were comically small on them until I saw they were 20s. I couldn't believe it.

Voodoomelon

I have 20"s on my 740 and I often remark how my friends 2001 Octavia and another friends 2004 Avensis both ride noticeably smoother over familiar roads than mine does. But going back to the OPs point, the car looks poor with anything smaller IMO.

Cee-Jay-Cee

ShaunieVW wrote: »

I've never had anything over 18s. I've never thought they were uncomfortable at all. Currently on 17s with 225/45s perfect mix of low profile and comfort IMO! The company I work for got there new company cars last year. There was a few a8s and I thought the wheels were comically small on them until I saw they were 20s. I couldn't believe it.

God love you poor wee young things. My first car had 12" wheels, largest wheel I've ever had on a car is 17" and I've owned over 30 cars in my life time. My current car has 17's but actually came with 16's but the ride was too wallowy so I changed them to 17's

MuppetCheck

Had 19s and 20s for a bit without issue. Done about 200k on 18s and the only problem involved a bit of angle iron on the road. Read the road and drive accordingly and you'll be grand.

I don't think our roads are as bad as people make out. Sure they've been underfunded but head off the beaten track in any number of other European countries and you'll find a similar story.

Cyrus

OSI wrote: »

They come in 20" from the factory as well, the old man's A6 S-Line came with them and the ride is perfectly comfortable in them.

Yes maybe on the a6,7or8 that's why I mentioned a4/5 in my post

Hachiko

MTBD wrote: »

Anyone else of the opinion that the ride and handling of almost all new cars is being destroyed due to overly big wheels. I have yet to get a drive in a car in Ireland with wheels that are 18 inche or more that hasnt had its ride and handling utterly destroyed by the wheels. Our roads just arent suitable for them. The cars just get so unsettled and lose traction over any bumps. Its actually very difficult to drive on a bit with them.

I was looking at getting a set of 17s for my car and because of the massive arches it would look a bit silly. All these cars like the M3/5 and C63 etc that get rave reviews for their handling must be absolute horror shows on Irish roads. I cant image they are even fast on bumpy roads. Surely a car with a much higher profile tyre would be safer, more comfortable and handle better on the average Irish road or any road really. Ive been in other countries whos roads are every bit as poor as ours.

Sure they look nice but they are expensive and ruin the cars balance. If the arches of moder cars werent so big then maybe we could go back to a smaller wheel. Why dont car manufacturers realise this?

I challenge anyone to drive around Kerry and ask themselves - ' do i really need nice alloy wheels here or would i be better off with a tractor?!'

I dont know how anyone in Ireland can drive around on nice wheels, sports suspension is literally a bone shattering prospect.

Hachiko

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Had 19s and 20s for a bit without issue. Done about 200k on 18s and the only problem involved a bit of angle iron on the road. Read the road and drive accordingly and you'll be grand.

I don't think our roads are as bad as people make out. Sure they've been underfunded but head off the beaten track in any number of other European countries and you'll find a similar story.

if you drive around main roads in Cork/Dublin you will probably not see the real horror that lies beneath, and most of Ireland is taken up with these regional and rural roads.

MuppetCheck

Hachiko wrote: »

if you drive around main roads in Cork/Dublin you will probably not see the real horror that lies beneath, and most of Ireland is taken up with these regional and rural roads.

Yeah, which I drive on daily. Its actually around town where I found the really large wheels worse.

H3llR4iser

Hachiko wrote: »

if you drive around main roads in Cork/Dublin you will probably not see the real horror that lies beneath, and most of Ireland is taken up with these regional and rural roads.

You'd be surprised. One of the worst roads I've driven on recently is South Douglas Road in Cork. If you really want a burst tire and possibly smashed rim, go drive its full length at night, keeping 50 km/h. You are guaranteed to hit some crater or, worse even, the mount Sinai-sized bumps resulting from the utterly botched repair jobs.

That said, I just came back from Italy, where city/urban roads almost need a Land Rover to be used effectively!

RyanMGF

Apart from more road noise and being easier to kerb I don't think there's much wrong with big wheels on modern cars. With the size of the wheel arches on most cars nowadays they need 18"+ wheels to look tasty, it's a bit different from 10 years ago when lads fitted 19" halfords wheels to old Lancers and consequently messed everything up in how the car drove, looked etc.

21" wheels on A7s aren't ridiculously unusual... too big or just right?

ofcork

They look a bit too big to me,the tyre sidewall is very small.

Skylinehead

Yeah they could lose an inch there.

SpannerMonkey

pred racer wrote: »

You could always fit smaller wheels with higher profile tyres!

depends on the size of the brake discs and position of the calipers . there is only so small you can go and for a lot of modern cars its 16 inch

MTBD

RyanMGF wrote: »

Apart from more road noise and being easier to kerb I don't think there's much wrong with big wheels on modern cars. With the size of the wheel arches on most cars nowadays they need 18"+ wheels to look tasty, it's a bit different from 10 years ago when lads fitted 19" halfords wheels to old Lancers and consequently messed everything up in how the car drove, looked etc.

21" wheels on A7s aren't ridiculously unusual... too big or just right?

It's not the looks I am disputing. What I am saying is that that car almost certainly has an appalling ride. There is no way in hell that car rides well over rough roads with those tyres and those wheels. Then there is the cost of replacing them when they get damaged and the fact that wide tyres often tend to wear unevenly no matter how well the car has been tracked.

I was looking at old cars on done deal such as a Ford Capri and its amazing how well a big car like that looked with 13" wheels, because it was designed right. New cars only look well with huge wheels because they have been designed to take these massive wheels that arent very practical or useable.

MTBD

RyanMGF wrote: »

Apart from more road noise and being easier to kerb I don't think there's much wrong with big wheels on modern cars. With the size of the wheel arches on most cars nowadays they need 18"+ wheels to look tasty, it's a bit different from 10 years ago when lads fitted 19" halfords wheels to old Lancers and consequently messed everything up in how the car drove, looked etc.

21" wheels on A7s aren't ridiculously unusual... too big or just right?

It's not the looks I am disputing. What I am saying is that that car almost certainly has an appalling ride. There is no way in hell that car rides well over rough roads with those tyres and those wheels. Then there is the cost of replacing them when they get damaged and the fact that wide tyres often tend to wear unevenly no matter how well the car has been tracked.

I was looking at old cars on done deal such as a Ford Capri and its amazing how well a big car like that looked with 13" wheels, because it was designed with those in mind. New cars only look well with huge wheels because they have been designed to take these massive wheels that arent very practical or useable.

challengemaster

They're perfectly practical and usable. You're not a pensioner by any chance?

bogmanstar

Anyone trying to justify larger wheels for road cars is poorly-informed about vehicle dynamics and set-up.

Most of these sad and ugly pimped cars you see with the slammed ‘suspensions’ and the over-sized wheels are driven, at low speeds, in suburbs, over back streets with speed humps, in shopping centre car parks and on normal roads. Very few, if any, of them are tracked – you only have to look at most of them to realise that they wouldn’t pass basic scrutineering for a proper track day.

Now, there are some benefits for a lowered suspension and slightly bigger wheels (up to say 17” or 18”) on a smooth track. Though not that much – F1 cars run 13” rims and they’re just a little bit quicker than your average ricer.

However, there are no engineering or dynamic benefits whatsoever to having big wheels, low profiles and a cut / slammed suspension on normal roads.

NOT NEEDED FOR BRAKES. Rally cars run 15” wheels. You can easily get brakes (such as Wilwoods) that would stop a truck to fit behind even a 15” rim. The idea that you ‘need’ bigger wheels for ‘proper’ brakes is ill-informed nonsense.

HEAVY AND COMPROMISES HANDLING. Bigger wheels add weight. The average cheap (non-forged) 19”, 20” etc alloy weighs a ton. Your car is slower to react on turn-in. Result: you’ve paid more to make your car handle worse. Genius.

OOPS, ANOTHER EXPENSIVE PUNCTURE. Bigger wheels need ultra-low profiles. They puncture regularly and cost much more than tyres with a proper side-wall.

FILLINGS FALLING OUT. They’re uncomfortable – together with your non-existent ‘suspension’, your silly-looking car j-i-g-g-l-e-s all the time. Fair enough, you could accept the compromise if it helped you with your lap times, but, as we’ve note, you don’t do track days anyway, so you’re jiggling up and down for nothing other than mere fashion. Which makes you an idiot, in my book.

THE ‘MORE GRIP’ MYTH. Wider tyres, which you bought to give you ‘more grip’, are a waste of time for hard driving on normal back roads. If you’re pressing on properly, you’re half the time airborne anyway. Back-roads / rally driving is all about sliding the car about / using the handbrake to make progress. Too much grip just spoils the fun. If you’re relying on just grip on normal roads, you’re just not driving fast enough and are going at such a low speed that your ‘extra grip’ tyres are irrelevant anyway.

THEY SLOW YOU DOWN. And that’s before we get on to the crucial issue of performance. I’m assuming that even the big wheel brigade wouldn’t willingly pay hard-earned money just to make their pride and joy wheels slower – would they? Well, if you’re dumb enough to buy bigger wheels, that’s exactly what you’ve done. The bigger the wheels, the slower your car accelerates.

Car & Driver, an American motoring magazine, set out to test for the impact of different wheel and tyre sizes on the popular Volkswagen Golf. By using the same design of aftermarket alloy wheel in four different sizes – 16in, 17in, 18in and 19in – and comparing them with the car’s standard 15in steel wheel, they were able to measure the effect on the Golf’s performance.

The conclusion was that when compared with the original 15in steel wheel, the heavy 19in set-up resulted in a 10% drop in fuel economy, a 4% fall in the 0-60mph acceleration test, slightly less lateral grip and a less comfortable ride over the road surface.

Not that any of the foregoing points will make any difference to the big wheel boys. Drivers me arfe. Just a bunch of ill-informed fashion victims who’d piss their tracksuit pants if they ever experienced real driving.

See:

stupidbigwheels dot BlogSpot dot co dot uk/

pablo128

You would want to get on to most car makers then. You know, the ones who offer bigger wheels with low profile tyres as an option, stiffer sports suspension as an option, etc. You think a car company will let a car out the door that handles and rides considerably worse on the more expensive options?

It is possible to improve ride and handling on most cars. Halfords though, is not the way to do it.

galwaytt

pablo128 wrote: »

I'll do better. The 1983 Mercedes 500 SEL rocked a set of 14's!:pac:

...I'll raise - or is that lower- you my Dad's W111..... 13's...

Back on topic though: I change my last 2 cars to smaller rims and taller profile tyres. Came out quids ahead too: as you say, everyone and his mother wants the bigger ones I was taking off....tyres get cheaper too. . Win-win all day

galwaytt

galwaytt wrote: »

...I'll raise - or is that lower- you my Dad's W111..... 13's...

Back on topic though: I change my last 2 cars to smaller rims and taller profile tyres. Came out quids ahead too: as you say, everyone and his mother wants the bigger ones I was taking off....tyres get cheaper too. . Win-win all day

Forgot to add: recently bought 12 reg Megane GT Tourer on 18's. It's a 1.5 diesel automatic.

In the garage is my 3.6L 911 on 'upgraded'. ....18's.

Madness. I'd happily change both down. And probably will. ...

CJhaughey

My Accord tourer came with 17" wheels, swapped them out for 16"s Car is transformed, smoother quieter and the tyres are much cheaper than 17"
Couldn't be happier.