Is America proof right wing countries are not something to aspire to?

steddyeddy

America is considered more right wing than Ireland say in regards to education, health care and race issues to say the least.

They have a worse education system than ours, they have a worse health system than ours and their justice system seems to be anything but just. Is this what people with right wing views aspire to because it's not working.

You might say America has some of the best schools and hospitals in the world. That would be true but to take those as the norm is missing the point of society. You can't build a society on rewarding people for being born into a certain wealth category. I.e the wealth category and race you're born into in America determines the education you will receive. I can sum up the health care system in America by saying that some parts of America suffer bubonic plague outbreaks (yersinia pestis or the black death to the layman).

porsche959

The US is great country to be rich, an ok country to be middling, not such a great country to be poor/undereducated/underprivileged. That said, the health system is not as bad as is sometimes made out to be, and protections for the unemployed have improved during the recent Great Recession (they had to improve them, otherwise they could have had a revolution on their hands). Also, the cost of living is quite reasonable once you avoid the 'fashionable' cities.

Make no mistake, when Irish right wingers say "we haven't any real austerity", they want us to adopt the "devil take the hindmost" type of extreme capitalism. Not so much the US as of 2014, but the US as of 1934.

http://weblogs.cltv.com/news/local/chicago/the%20great%20depression%202.gif

fedor.2.

For a nation of over 300 million people, I think America handles it really well. Is it perfect? Course not, show me somewhere of equal size that does a better job of it.

Supergurrier

The fact they spent almost 150bn

Yes 150000000000

To develop two fighter jets says alot

Wacker The Attacker

murica

Junkyard Tom

steddyeddy wrote: »

You might say America has some of the best schools and hospitals in the world.

It would be more accurate to say that the rich in the US have access to some of the best schools and hospitals in the country.

"Unless you're a Warren Buffett or Bill Gates, you're one illness away from financial ruin in this country," says lead author Steffie Woolhandler, M.D., of the Harvard Medical School, in Cambridge, Mass. "If an illness is long enough and expensive enough, private insurance offers very little protection against medical bankruptcy, and that's the major finding in our study."

cnn.com

engineerbrah

America is a liberal country you numbnut. Just because a few black people were killed by white police officers doesn't make it 'right wing'.

Their education system is very critical on slavery & dead white males in general and the new common core system is as leftist as it gets. Common core is specifically designed to benefit the growing minority groups in the US.

Their healthcare system was socialised like 2 years ago (Obamacare).

America allows every race & religion in the world to immigrate there, allows homosexuality, abortion, freedom of speech, etc. Are you fukkin awake son?

buried

Best schools? Shtap yer nonsense

porsche959

buried wrote: »

Best schools? Shtap yer nonsense

America does indeed have a high proportion of the top rated universities in the world. Don't know about high schools, but one would assume some of them are pretty good to enable access to the top universities, no?

buried

porsche959 wrote: »

America does indeed have a high proportion of the top rated universities in the world.

How much does it cost to get in them?

Mr. Incognito

American proof is an oxymoron.

Its like fuzzy logic or

Low fat butter.

steddyeddy

Junkyard Cat wrote: »

It would be more accurate to say that the rich in the US have access to some of the best schools and hospitals in the country.

Oh yes I agree. Which means nothing if only a small percentage of the population can fulfil their maximum potential.

porsche959

engineerbrah wrote: »

America is a liberal country you numbnut. Just because a few black people were killed by white police officers doesn't make it 'right wing'.

Their education system is very critical on slavery & dead white males in general and the new common core system is as leftist as it gets. Common core is specifically designed to benefit the growing minority groups in the US.

Their healthcare system was socialised like 2 years ago (Obamacare).

America allows every race & religion in the world to immigrate there, allows homosexuality, abortion, freedom of speech, etc. Are you fukkin awake son?

Are you American yourself? The reason I ask is that the expression 'socialised healthcare' is generally not used outside the US, at least not in Europe,as publicly funded healthcare is considered not to be 'socialist' but rather the norm.

porsche959

buried wrote: »

How much does it cost to get in them?

An enormous amount, though I think there are a limited number of scholarship programmes.

steddyeddy

porsche959 wrote: »

America does indeed have a high proportion of the top rated universities in the world. Don't know about high schools, but one would assume some of them are pretty good to enable access to the top universities, no?

Well American research thrives on something called the genius visa. In other words most American talent is imported.

buried

porsche959 wrote: »

An enormous amount, though I think there are a limited number of scholarship programmes.

Unless those schools are open to every citizen in the land without financial backup, then this claim to have the 'best schools in the world' is a total ridiculous fallacy

Junkyard Tom

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well American research thrives on something called the genius visa. In other words most American talent is imported.

It also thrives on public money.

Damn socialists.

errlloyd

The easiest country to compare America to is Canada. I think I'd rather live in Canada.

But OP is right, many of the best things in the world are American. Colleges is the obvious example, but the best surgeons and doctors work in us hospitals. Many of the best companies on the world are American.

The simple fact is America has been the richest Country in the world for a long time. They economic richness has benefited other aspects of their society. They have nice cities like nyc, great museums and monuments.

Most of the country is fairly ****, there are probably 44 States I'd refuse to live in. Even the ones I'd be willing to live in, I'd refuse to live a lot of areas. And I wouldn't wanna bring up my kids there.

Is USA an example we should follow? No, we can't. It wouldn't matter if our gdp per capita was massive, we'd still never be a big enough economy to be best in the world at much. We need to look at nations our size. Sweden, Denmark and new Zealand. What are they doing.

steddyeddy

buried wrote: »

Unless those schools are open to every citizen in the land without financial backup, then this claim to have the 'best schools in the world' is a total ridiculous fallacy

I agree. It's a point very few people seem to grasp. If you select a select few to enter a school based on a non intrinsic value like parental wealth instead of intelligence then the quality of graduate isn't going to be optimal. It's the equivalent of selecting athletes based on parental wealth.

KomradeBishop

America is gradually transforming into a plutocracy, and its right wing policies are pretty much what is directly paving the way towards that.

There's a reason why so many right-wing policies sound like they'd just hand over power to a wealthy elite, and why the utopian promises of lasting harmony from such policies are so unconvincing: It's because that's exactly the point.

enfant terrible

steddyeddy wrote: »

Oh yes I agree. Which means nothing if only a small percentage of the population can fulfil their maximum potential.

Why does the college turn into a bad college when it becomes expensive to enter?

Junkyard Tom

enfant terrible wrote: »

Why does the college turn into a bad college when it becomes expensive to enter?

Who is making that argument you've just imagined?

ush

Great country. The best yuan can buy.

hatrickpatrick

fedor.2. wrote: »

For a nation of over 300 million people, I think America handles it really well. Is it perfect? Course not, show me somewhere of equal size that does a better job of it.

And this is exactly why smaller governments looking after smaller numbers of people are ideal, and therefore why we should vehemently oppose any moves to "pool" any more sovereignty with the EU.

Captain Chaos

Supergurrier wrote: »

The fact they spent almost 150bn

Yes 150000000000

To develop two fighter jets says alot

Two that can't be and won't be matched for many many decades and will automatically grant them total air superiority in any war they want to fight.

It's an ace in the hole investment to their foreign policy alright.

Sure they have 20 B2 stealth bombers than cost $2bn each back in the '90s, adjust that to todays inflation levels and the mind boggles.

Personally I'd rather see that money go to NASA or health science R&D.

Phil Mitchell

enfant terrible wrote: »

Why does the college turn into a bad college when it becomes expensive to enter?

When they don't let the best students in, just the ones that can pay.

Iwasfrozen

errlloyd wrote: »

The easiest country to compare America to is Canada. I think I'd rather live in Canada.

Let me stop you right there, Canada isn't a fair comparison. With Canada you have 35 million people and huge amounts of natural resources. The USA has an "official" population almost 10 times the population of Canada with an actual population likely to be much more.

Here's a good map to illustrate the actual size and diversity of the United States economy relative to other nations:

http://www.infohow.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/US-State-GDP-vs-Other-Nations.jpg

ceadaoin.

Phil Mitchell wrote: »

When they don't let the best students in, just the ones that can pay.

They do only let the best students in. You also have to meet the academic criteria to be accepted, not just have money.

Other than grades, Ivy League admissions departments look at many other things, such as: essays, teacher and counselor recommendations and activities outside of school. These activities can include sports, music, clubs, jobs, and community service.

Before we get into extracurriculars and other personal achievements, let's take a look at the basics an Ivy League applicant should possess.

Overall what you should expect to have is:

At least a 1950 or better SAT. Not necessary, but definitely helps. Remember, you can take the test more than once.

Minimum 3.75 GPA. A 4.0 isn't necessary, but you really do need at least something close to it.

Leadership experience. Whether it's team captain or a club officer, you need something that separates you from the crowd.

A solid well-written essay. The written essay in your application is extremely important. Revise as many times as needed and take your time. The essay is pretty much the only part of the application an admissions officer has to judge your personal character, outside of letters of recommendation.

RustyNut

Money for war but won't feed their poor.

ceadaoin.

RustyNut wrote: »

Money for war but won't feed their poor.

They spent $74 billion last year on the SNAP (Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program). I think they could do more but people seem to think they don't offer any assistance to people living in poverty.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplemental_Nutrition_Assistance_Program#Eligible_Food_Items_under_SNAP

InitiumNovum

I'm personally sick of the commie European inferiority complex in relation to 'Murica.

suicide_circus

Damn rightwingers with their gay marriage, abortion and legalised weed

Cold War Kid

People really should use the term "communist" correctly, but anyway, America is obviously not a hardline right-wing society - it's too massively diverse, with individual states having their own administrative systems, but economically... it does seem like you're ****ed if you're poor.
That was the principle America was built on - "The American Dream": get out there and make it happen for yourself. A lovely idea, and worked for many people, but not everyone. It's a good ethos, but there should be some supports too. Nothing wrong with a balance of both.

Connemara Farmer

I'd like to know, as a % of each population, how many Americans left their country to come work/live here versus the Irish % that left here to work/live in the US, and to be fair about it we can take an average since say 1995.

Edit: For a minimum period of three years or greater.

diomed

The USA is three countries: rich white; poor white; other disadvantaged.

steddyeddy

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

I'd like to know, as a % of each population, how many Americans left their country to come work/live here versus the Irish % that left here to work/live in the US, and to be fair about it we can take an average since say 1995.

Edit: For a minimum period of three years or greater.

Oh yea America's not bad if you're starting off in another country. I am an Irish graduate with a valued degree. If I went over there I would make I lot more Tha I do here. The thing is if I was born in America I might not have got the degree at all. I'd be competing with stupider but richer American kids to get into a college.

Connemara Farmer

steddyeddy wrote: »

Oh yea America's not bad if you're starting off in another country. I am an Irish graduate with a valued degree. If I went over there I would make I lot more Tha I do here. The thing is if I was born in America I might not have got the degree at all. I'd be competing with stupider but richer American kids to get into a college.

I don't necessarily agree, plenty of people in Ireland (myself included, by choice) don't have college degrees.

In the US there are scholarships that go by the wayside each year, they can be applied for and got.

There is, rightly or wrongly, a higher value placed on work over there than here.

UCDVet

steddyeddy wrote: »

America is considered more right wing than Ireland say in regards to education, health care and race issues to say the least.

They have a worse education system than ours, they have a worse health system than ours and their justice system seems to be anything but just. Is this what people with right wing views aspire to because it's not working.

You might say America has some of the best schools and hospitals in the world. That would be true but to take those as the norm is missing the point of society. You can't build a society on rewarding people for being born into a certain wealth category. I.e the wealth category and race you're born into in America determines the education you will receive. I can sum up the health care system in America by saying that some parts of America suffer bubonic plague outbreaks (yersinia pestis or the black death to the layman).

Having lived in both, I think this is a common misconception.

When people compare something like 'health care' in a country, they boil down all of the information until they get one or two easily comparable figures. Infant mortality or life expectancy usually, but there are lots more they might use.

Across the board, when you average (or take the median) in a lot of ways, the US doesn't seem so great. But anyone who has taken a stats class knows that two sets of data can have very different values, but still the same average or median.

In the US you have a much wider distribution of values. The poor in the US are a fair bit worse off than the poor in Ireland, but the FLIP SIDE to this is that the middle / upper middle class are a fair bit better off than the middle / upper middle class in Ireland.

Looking at healthcare again, it's really hard to improve the quality of care when you're already getting pretty good health care. The easiest way to improve is to focus on people who get no health care at all. That's the 'easy win', in the US (the relatively new ObamaCare stuff is meant to help, but still) to give average health care to people who currently get none. Giving excellent health care to people with great health care is very expensive and results in only a tiny improvement.

I'd MUCH, MUCH rather be unemployed and sick in Ireland. It wouldn't be great, money would be tight - but I'd have a place to live and I'd get to see doctors. Sure, I'm not going to get a next day appointment with a specialist or anything, but I can get my name in the queue.

Same deal with education. Some of the schools are so bad you'd never consider sending your children - typically in large cities like New York or Chicago. They're filled with gangs and violence. But then, just 30 minutes down the street you've got amazing schools. When you average it out, you'd say, 'Education isn't very good in the US' but the truth is your children are only going to attend one school and as long as they aren't in the ghetto, they're quite good.

TLDR - the US has a much wider range in quality of medical care/education depending on your social-economic area. As an anecdote, my private health care in the US was no more expensive than I pay now with VHI, but had better coverage, fewer out of pocket expenses, ZERO wait time, and let me phone up a specialist directly; if I wanted to see a dermatologist I could just call and schedule an appointment. I didn't need to go to a general practitioner, pay, wait for a letter to be sent to see a specialist or any of that. And the per month cost was actually a tiny bit cheaper (as a % of my paycheck, I can't keep up with the value of the euro)

PowerToWait

Another tedious soapbox thread that's been done over and over.

Same chippy points repeated ad nauseam but set in America. For variety.

bb1234567

fedor.2. wrote: »

For a nation of over 300 million people, I think America handles it really well. Is it perfect? Course not, show me somewhere of equal size that does a better job of it.

If the european union were a single nation

smurgen

fedor.2. wrote: »

For a nation of over 300 million people, I think America handles it really well. Is it perfect? Course not, show me somewhere of equal size that does a better job of it.

America has a smaller population than Europe and I'd argue that the living standards in Europe are alot higher on average than the average US living standards.

smurgen

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Two that can't be and won't be matched for many many decades and will automatically grant them total air superiority in any war they want to fight.

It's an ace in the hole investment to their foreign policy alright.

Sure they have 20 B2 stealth bombers than cost $2bn each back in the '90s, adjust that to todays inflation levels and the mind boggles.

Personally I'd rather see that money go to NASA or health science R&D.

Fighters are going to be obsolete in modern warfare.drones and missile technology is where it's at.they are relics just like aircraft carriers. Great for fighting small badly equipped armies but not very effective against the likes of the Russians.

steddyeddy

enfant terrible wrote: »

Why does the college turn into a bad college when it becomes expensive to enter?

I'm talking about the school. Well either way think about it. Expensive means that something is out of a lot of people's reach.

Would you pick athletes from a small gene pool or a large gene pool?

SeanW

diomed wrote: »

The USA is three countries: rich white; poor white; other disadvantaged.

What about Asian Americans?

As of 2012, Asian Americans had the highest educational attainment level and median household income of any racial demographic in the country,[2][5] and in 2008 they had the highest median personal income overall of any racial demographic.[6][7]

Emphasis mine.

osarusan

UCDVet wrote: »

In the US you have a much wider distribution of values. The poor in the US are a fair bit worse off than the poor in Ireland, but the FLIP SIDE to this is that the middle / upper middle class are a fair bit better off than the middle / upper middle class in Ireland.
)

bingo!

The USA has a massively wide range in so many areas. They have some of the very best universities in the world but, every for M.I.T. or Harvard, you have a Liberty University.

They have some of the very best hospitals in the world, but for every good hospital, you have people unemployed and without insurance who find it difficult to get any medical attention at all.


They have some of the very best and most intelligent people in the world, who get paid a lot of money. But for all of those very well-paid people, there are more who get paid much worse than Ireland, or unemployed without a similar welfare system to support them.

MRnotlob606

I think it would be more liberal than Ireland in some respects.

smash

Fcuk you OP. What have got against freedom?!?!?! :pac:

Manach

While of course there are dark spots in America's history, it is still one of the worlds most vibrant, rich and powerful countries in the world. The leftist slurs on the state convenient ignore the stagnant economies of old Europe and the destruction wrought over the environment by the command & control model in the old Eastern Block.

steddyeddy

Manach wrote: »

While of course there are dark spots in America's history, it is still one of the worlds most vibrant, rich and powerful countries in the world. The leftist slurs on the state convenient ignore the stagnant economies of old Europe and the destruction wrought over the environment by the command & control model in the old Eastern Block.

When you label an argument instead of counter it effectively you lose all credibility.

smash

Someone said that America has the wealthiest economy. Is this actually true anymore?

I mean given that Japan/China own the majority of their debt.

I often talk with American ex-colleagues of mine and we often have discussions about what is good about America and they often find it difficult to come up with reasons.

smash wrote: »

Fcuk you OP. What have got against freedom?!?!?! :pac:

I always find this funny because America has far less freedom than many other countries.

bnt

Supergurrier wrote: »

The fact they spent almost 150bn

Yes 150000000000

To develop two fighter jets says alot

So, where did that money go, then? Down the plughole? No, it went back in to the economy, in to jobs (both govt. and subcontractors), infrastructure, industries, and so on. There are probably more efficient ways of doing that, and there are also problems with the uneven allocation of resources by Congress (pork barrel spending). But it's not economically accurate to characterise defense spending as all wasted, any more than it is for the space program.

What should be done, in my opinion, is reduce spending on defense and spend it more directly on infrastructure. But I don't see how this is a left- / right-wing thing. Do you think that government spending on defense is a right-wing thing? Conservatives are supposed to be in favour of small government, which makes it weird that government spending shot up under every Republican president since Eisenhower (link). But the increases can be attributed to defense spending, which means that Republicans don't mind. If this sounds confused, you can hardly blame me ...