Alternative Weddings Expo

fannymagee

Hi All,

I've just turned on Tubridy on t'rajio (for the first time EVER!) and they're talking about an alternative wedding expo this weekend in Croke Park.

Is anyone thinking of going? I'm thinking of heading down for a nosey- sounds like an interesting day out if nothing more- they're doing live weddings (and I love a good wedding haha) Also, they said tattoo. I'm there! It sounds like a huge operation though, I wonder will the attendance justify the extravagant venue?

Any thoughts?

Milly33

Id love to go but based in Cork.. It does sound very interesting. I went to two here in Cork and well found them well boring, same ding dong.. One was more for support for same sex and the other was just a random one...

Are you thinking of getting a tattoo then to mark the wedding.. Thinking myself but not sure what to get

clint_silver

http://extraordinaryeventsltd.com/event/

Milly33

That's the one Not bad for €10

fannymagee

Milly33 wrote: »

Id love to go but based in Cork.. It does sound very interesting. I went to two here in Cork and well found them well boring, same ding dong.. One was more for support for same sex and the other was just a random one...

Are you thinking of getting a tattoo then to mark the wedding.. Thinking myself but not sure what to get

No I'm not getting married myself, but I'm currently training to be a solemniser, so I'm really interested in the alternative side of things. I love non-mainstream weddings, it's AMAZING what people come up with!! Re: tattoos, I'm just kinda fascinated by them- and yes, I'm DYING to see what sort of wedding tattoos people are getting!!

Yeah I reckon it'll be a tenner well spent, just on entertainment alone! :-)

Milly33

I see I see... That must be interested becoming a solemniser, well done to you hope it goes well... And yes Id say it would be a great place to go to get ideas and hear what people have to say. Im telling you there are so many fairs and they are all the same thing, and well while it is fine if you are going down the typical wedding route ((which is fine nothing) just some people like to be different and there is nothing really out there offering anything but the norm. It is defiantly becoming more popular and wanted by people.. Go ferrit sure it cant be a waste of a trip..

The wedding tats some are loverly and some are ecck thin there is a big opening to actually sell some nice choices or give choices.. haha maybe you could do that train to be an artist so couples can get them done on the day now that would be funky

fannymagee

Milly33 wrote: »

I see I see... That must be interested becoming a solemniser, well done to you hope it goes well... And yes Id say it would be a great place to go to get ideas and hear what people have to say. Im telling you there are so many fairs and they are all the same thing, and well while it is fine if you are going down the typical wedding route ((which is fine nothing) just some people like to be different and there is nothing really out there offering anything but the norm. It is defiantly becoming more popular and wanted by people.. Go ferrit sure it cant be a waste of a trip..

The wedding tats some are loverly and some are ecck thin there is a big opening to actually sell some nice choices or give choices.. haha maybe you could do that train to be an artist so couples can get them done on the day now that would be funky

It's SO interesting!! I'll be doing alternative funerals too, we really need to widen the options available to people here.

I'm interested to hear that about the alternative wedding scene, sounds like it's still in its infancy here so? Ooh I'm so excited about Saturday now, can't wait to see what sort of show they put on! :-)

PS wedding tattoos on the day- that is a BRILLIANT idea!! But I can barely sign my own name legibly on the register, never mind permanently inking someone's wedding finger!!!

Maybe I'll just use a big black marker ;-)

Milly33

Come back and let us know how it went then..

fannymagee

Milly33 wrote: »

Come back and let us know how it went then..

Will do!! Just found out m friend is doing the make-up for the fashion show- I'm really looking forward to it!! :-) xxx

fannymagee

So I went! It was good, but the attendance wasn't great, prob a lot to do with the bus strike & crap weather! I see what you mean though Milly33, the majority of stands were very conventional. Met some great people though, and it was great to meet a few of the hotel people, they were VERY interested in the legal & non-humanist/religious aspect of what we do, so that was a nice boost!

I kinda want to go again tomorrow haha- I think I'm gonna enjoy living in the world of weddings!!

Milly33

Oh no that is a shame to hear, I really thought people would go crazy for it...I suppose the strike and the crappy weather would put people off but them it is indoors...

so they didn't have much different!! What did they have hotels, photo dudes, candy carts man they drive me nuts... haha the one we went to the only stand I found interesting was the tent/gazeos chaps

Suppose at least you got to meet others and got your name out there

fannymagee

Milly33 wrote: »

Oh no that is a shame to hear, I really thought people would go crazy for it...I suppose the strike and the crappy weather would put people off but them it is indoors...

so they didn't have much different!! What did they have hotels, photo dudes, candy carts man they drive me nuts... haha the one we went to the only stand I found interesting was the tent/gazeos chaps

Suppose at least you got to meet others and got your name out there

Oh my God that's it exactly!! There was even a perfume & aftershave dude, not sure what that's about??! I missed the Tipi guy, but I know what you mean his stand was great! And alternative ;-)

There was a dress/costume maker there form Temple Bar, she had fabulous bespoke dresses, made with leather, peacock feathers, bark, all sorts of everything! A juggler/circus act, traditional invitations, sweet stand, shoes, nails, men's suits, wedding dresses, and then two hotels. One hotel was the Wicklow Grand and they were so lovely, they gave loads of info (and free Ferrero haha) ;-)

I was REALLY surprised to see there were no celebrants there, at all! I was holding out till I can legally Solemnise to launch my service, but from what I'm seeing here there is a huge demand (and shortage) so it really did surprise me to see nobody there, given that 'alternative' is the exact target audience for a non-religious celebrant! AND the upside is that it has given me the nudge I needed to get started with my own ceremonies sooner rather than later. There's no reason to wait till next year if the demand is here now, and HOPEFULLY the demand will increase even more after May 22nd. Woohoo!! We shall see ;-)

There were also quite a few Mammies tottering about in high heels and red lipstick, one nearly fainted when she realised that if she came in for the Pagan wedding she would be expected to stay for the duration (out of courtesy to the couple getting married!). She left in a waft of chiffon scarf & Chanel 5. Kinda funny ;-)

PS I asked the tattoo guy about wedding tattoos, and he looked at me as though I had ten heads so I kinda skulked off with my tail between my legs haha. Maybe he was pissed off with the conventionalness too. There wasn't a Jedi or Flying Spaghetti Monster in sight ;-)

Milly33

I love that church the spaghetti monster its so funny and well formed really... surprise with tattoo chap maybe again it is just something that is only starting now. I know a lot of people don't like wearing rings, or are allergic a lot of men too don't like them so a tattoo is kinda funky...

Go for it defiantly I would think you will be in high demand just remember to keep the prices good.. I was amazed at the prices, for the non religious weddings. One chap wanted €450 odd and it wasn't like he was given some to charity... Madness I cant say I could justify paying someone that much when the civil is around €200 or like that just get a family friend to do the ceremony...

stinkle

Milly33 wrote: »

Go for it defiantly I would think you will be in high demand just remember to keep the prices good.. I was amazed at the prices, for the non religious weddings. One chap wanted €450 odd and it wasn't like he was given some to charity... Madness I cant say I could justify paying someone that much when the civil is around €200 or like that just get a family friend to do the ceremony...

Everyone has to pay the €200, regardless of the ceremony you're having though. The HSE solemnisers aren't paid out of that, ceremonies are one part of their job and they're on a salary. Not to mention they don't facilitate weekend weddings. If you want a particular registry office date that turns out to be busy you could find yourself having a very rushed ceremony, and if you want an off-site wedding your times are limited (12.30pm and 3.30pm in the Dublin area if I recall correctly - not great times, esp in winter if you want photos in daylight).

Plus they are/were reluctant to facilitate outdoor weddings - this may have changed since I married last year, but there was some kind of issue the month of our wedding regarding the legalities of Humanists performing outdoor weddings. It went in one ear and out the other as outdoor ceremony was never an option for us, but I remember the venue and celebrant frantically double-checking with us in the last few days.

Our humanist celebrant, for example, has a day job so I imagine the charge goes towards loss of earnings if a wedding clashes with work for them. For a weekend wedding it's an extra day out of their schedule too. Obviously that's what they signed up for, but demand has skyrocketed recently and in the beginning it may have been a nice thing to do every week or so during wedding season, whereas now supply can barely keep up with demand, as many posts on this forum show. Pitching the price there at least might keep some time wasters away too.

In our experience anyway it was money well spent, and a small amount in the scheme of things. We got legally married in a very personal ceremony, on a weekend, at a time that worked well, in our venue, by a wonderfully helpful person who was fab in the run-up to the wedding.

Peregrinus

fannymagee wrote: »

I was REALLY surprised to see there were no celebrants there, at all! I was holding out till I can legally Solemnise to launch my service, but from what I'm seeing here there is a huge demand (and shortage) so it really did surprise me to see nobody there, given that 'alternative' is the exact target audience for a non-religious celebrant!. . . .

But you've put your finger on the reason why nobody was there. As long as the service you offer is in short supply and there is huge demand for it, you really don't need to market too aggressively. There's a significant cost, both in money and in the commitment of time, to participating in a trade fair. If you already have the work pouring in, why bother?

fannymagee

Thanks all, this is so helpful! :-)

Milly33

no sorry still have to say they are charging way to much. I mean how much do you get paid for a days works.. Not that much even the highest paid people are not paid that much per hour

stinkle

It's not a day's work though, it's a service with a flat fee. As I said in my previous post, many of these people started out doing this in their spare time but may now be in positions where it takes over their life a bit due to the growing popularity. This may involve turning down other work, missing family events and the like. Any decent celebrant will have met the couple in advance and communicated with them over the planning period. How often that is will depend on individual circumstances, but you dont just book and then meet them on the day. Ours makes a point of arriving early and meeting musicians, readers, bridal party etc and organises them all and so it's much more than an hour on the day. I was only delighted to see him when I arrived, he was great at putting my nerves at bay and it was far better to have a pro do it than a random cousin or whoever.

The only cheap option is quick registry office affair wtih minimal witnesses and frills. If a couple is going to the trouble of hiring a different celebrant then they're probably making a full day of it so the price is quickly dwarfed by other aspects of a wedding. If it's a legal celebrant then it's the most important part of the day. 450 also works out a lot cheaper than paying 200 quid for the moneyspinner catholic premarriage course, paying for letters of freedom, having to decorate church with flowers and paying priests etc. Not the mention the "donation" that couples are expected to pay for church do's. Most of those prices are totally at the discretion of the parish too, so it can be hard to estimate how much the "average" is, but from hearing friends talk we got quite the bargain in comparison.

Peregrinus

stinkle wrote: »

. . . The only cheap option is quick registry office affair wtih minimal witnesses and frills. If a couple is going to the trouble of hiring a different celebrant then they're probably making a full day of it so the price is quickly dwarfed by other aspects of a wedding. If it's a legal celebrant then it's the most important part of the day. 450 also works out a lot cheaper than paying 200 quid for the moneyspinner catholic premarriage course, paying for letters of freedom, having to decorate church with flowers and paying priests etc. Not the mention the "donation" that couples are expected to pay for church do's. Most of those prices are totally at the discretion of the parish too, so it can be hard to estimate how much the "average" is, but from hearing friends talk we got quite the bargain in comparison.

Hold on, this isn’t really stacking up. €450 “works out cheaper” than €200? Because you “have to decorate the church with flowers”? Are you under the impression that if you pay your humanist celebrant €450, that price includes them turning up to decorate your venue with flowers? ‘Cause, you know, it doesn’t. If you want flowers, you have to arrange that and pay for it yourself, and that’s true regardless of whether you have a humanist celebrant or a religious celebrant or a civil celebrant.

It’s hard to compare the cost of a humanist wedding and a church wedding fairly, because the church fees generally include a premises cost and the humanist celebrant fees do not. In addition the church fees may vary depending on whether you get married in your own parish church, or in another church chosen because you like the appearance or ambience. But, for what it’s worth, I think €450 is a fair fee for a humanist celebrant. You’re not just getting an hour of somebody’s time; you’re getting the benefit of their training and accreditation, which has a cost to them in terms of time and money, and you are getting their expertise and experience; a good celebrant will support you in a great deal more than simply attending to the clerical aspects of your marriage registration.

stinkle

I'm under no impressions whatsoever, why would you read that from my post? I already had my humanist marriage ceremony and have real life experience.

I think we might be on the same page about this, so please read the part you quoted properly. 200 quid is the minimum I have heard about for the pre marriage course, that's the only concrete figure I know of. Then they have to pay extra on top of that for "donations", give the priest a meal, pay for organist (whether you use them or not in many cases), additional paperwork if they are from different parishes and yeah, any church weddings Ive been to have had things like pew ends and altar flowers all paid for my the couple, then left behind after - as already agreed with the parish apparently. All that stuff adds up and easily comes to more than 450.

Peregrinus

stinkle wrote: »

. . . All that stuff adds up and easily comes to more than 450.

Yes, of course it does. But for that you get a lot more than the services of a celebrant - you get the premises, you get the organist, you get the flowers, you get the pre-marriage course. Whereas for the 450 that you pay to the humanist celebrant, you don't get any of that stuff. If you want to do a fair comparison, you should be adding the cost of the flowers, the music, etc on to the celebrant's fee as well (or alternatively omit them in your assessment of the church costs - you don't have to put flowers in the church if you don't want them, and you can choose to marry in a church with no resident organist, or in a church which doesn't require pre-marriage courses, if you that's what you want).

stinkle

450 gives you the freedom to have a legal marriage ceremony where you like, when you like, with no rules about music, and with the structure you want. You get the premises anyway if it's the same venue as your reception - it's not like you have to go find a separate place and pay a hire charge if that's not your thing. Some venues do have a fee for ceremony alright, but that's nothing to do with the celebrant.

If you want a catholic wedding it must be in a church, thems the rules, there's no two ways about it BUT you get a charge for that - one I agree with as lighting and heating big old buildings isn't cheap. You have to pay extra for a catholic pre-marriage course, I'm not familiar with other faiths, and unless the priest is a relative or friend then the majority of couples are obliged to attend a course. This probably costs more in the long run if one or both of the couple have to take time off work for it as well.

Yes, you may well choose a church with none of the extra bits and pieces to pay for, but the vast majority of people stick with their own parish out of convenience and/or tradition and have to abide by their rules - rules which cost them money in the long run. If they're ok with that then great. There's a whole host of other "stealth taxes" in addition then though - like obtaining "letters of freedom" if one or both have lived in different parishes - no mean feat for anyone who's moved around a lot or lived abroad - each letter costs money too, and of course differs from place to place. Many, many churches do insist on stuff like compensating organists if they arent using them for ceremony and supplying flowers. That's not a new thing, friends have had to do that recently and even my own parents about 40 years ago had to as well.

Peregrinus

Yes, I know. But organists are professionals, remember, entitled to be paid, and the standard terms for appointment as a church organist involves a payment for each wedding celebrated at the church, in return for which the organist will play at the wedding, if required. By analogy, for the 450 euro paid to your humanist wedding celebrant you will get advice on devising and running your wedding ceremony, if you want it. If you don't want it, though, you don't get a reduction in the fee.

As for the pre-marriage course, the Catholic church is the only church that requires them. They are mostly held at weekends and in the evenings, so most people can manage to attend without missing work, though of course if you work weekends and evenings you may have to look around a bit before you find one held that's held during regular working hours.

The bottom line is that, for what you pay to be married in a church, you get a lot more than for what you pay to be married by a humanist celebrant. If you don't want all that extra stuff - the venue, the organist, the pre-marriage course, etc - then the rational choice is not to be married in a church.

For those who choose to be married in a church, there's nothing unfair or exploitative about it. If, as you say, the "vast majority of people stick with their own parish out of convenience and/or tradition", that just means that they value convenience and/or tradition enough that they are willing to pay more than 450 in order to be married in the place, and in the way, that they want.

Peregrinus

. . .

Milly33

Sorry just sounds like you agree with one thing stinkle and think all else are wrong. And I would say going down the option of reg is cheap it is different strokes for different folks, also with the church while I agree it is mad too how much they charge for fees and they fact that they are so whimiscial but again as pointed out you do get a fancy church etc and place to have the ceremony

For a fee of €450 you don't get much, you don't get a venue you get what 20mins to 30mins work, it isn't even a days work as you pointed out. Turning up early to your wedding I still wouldn't justify paying that much. It just seems mad

fannymagee

Ok folks, DING DING!!

As others have said, to become a Solemniser takes years of training at your own expense, along with no holiday/sick pay, and you've to pay the usual taxes. Being self-employed in this country is no joke. Having a celebrant/Solemniser is an optional service for those who choose it, nobody is being forced to pay €450.

Personally I would never see a couple stuck, but I am running a business, not a charity (although I do a lot of charity work) I need to pay a mortgage and feed and clothe my child, same as anyone else.

Now, back to hippy weddings! :-) xxx

Milly33

Round One is done!! haha only messing well said things get taken so black and white but anywho..

I am still surprised to hear that is wasn't such a hit, but I suppose even people are kinda opening up to different styles in Ireland now so maybe this year will be the intro and next year will be boom time.. Someone mentioned the Brehon Laws type of ceremony have you heard much about these..

Going to head to a tattoo festival this month and I am going to ask a few about wedding tats and see what they say.

Peregrinus

Milly33 wrote: »

Someone mentioned the Brehon Laws type of ceremony have you heard much about these..

The Brehon law codes have a great deal to say about marriage, but little or nothing about weddings; the codes don't prescribe or regulate the ceremonies by which people married.

Brehon law was a living legal system until the seventeenth century. For the 1200 years or so of its existence, Gaelic society was substantially Christian, and all of the written Brehon codes that we have come from this period. We have nothing at all from the pre-Christian period, though of course we know a good deal of what is contained in the written codes goes back to the pre-Christian period.

Obviously, during the Christian period, Brehon law co-existed with Christian marriage ceremonies. It's not necessarily the case that everyone married in a Christian ceremony, but many did, and the Brehon laws treated them as married.

Before the Christian period there must have been non-Christian marriage ceremonies, and it's probable that they survived into the Christian period. But we know nothing about them.

In short, Brehon law offers us no direct guidance on the form and structure of wedding ceremonies. What we can do, though, is to look at Brehon law on marriage and, working backwards from that, devise ceremonies which point to the values that Brehon law saw expressed in marriage.

These aren't always appeal to the modern sensibility, however. On the plus side, Brehon law strongly emphasised that both husband and wife had to consent freely to the marriage. On the negative side, the woman in particular, regardless of her age, also needed the consent of her guardian (usually her father). A big focus in Brehon law is that marriage is not just a union of two individuals, but two families, and consequently the families needed to be onside. A couple could elope and marry without the consent or even knowledge of their families, but that produced only a low class of marriage - Brehon law codes recognise ten or twelve different classes of marriage, according to who brings what to the marriage in terms of property, where the couple will live, etc, etc. A marriage by elopement was only one degree above marriage by rape, or the marriage of feeble-minded or insane people.

"Marriage by rape", I hear you say? Yes. Under the Brehon codes if you raped someone, and a child resulted, the couple were considered to be in a low class of marriage. (The purpose was to protect the inheritance and other legal rights of the child.)

Given all this, what would be in a Brehon marriage ceremony? Well, we can only guess, but one guess would be that the ceremony would include elements showing that this was a marriage of high degree, not low degree. So, in addition to declarations of free consent by both spouses, the woman's family and probably also the man's would participate in some way, to declare their consent to and approbation of the marriage. In addition, there would be some formal display of, or assertion of, the property that each was bringing to the marriage - a marriage in which both parties brought significant assets was of higher degree than one in which one spouse was dependent on the other. And there would be some feature signifying that the couple were going to live independently, and not with the family of one or other of them, since that also would lower the degree of the marriage.

Finally, there would be some declaration or recognition of the bride's honour-price, measured in head of cattle. This was the sum the husband would have to pay if he provided grounds for divorce (in addition, of course, to returning any property the wife had brought to the marriage).

I don't know how much of this you want to incorporate into a modern ceremony, though.

Extraplus

fannymagee wrote: »

Ok folks, DING DING!!

As others have said, to become a Solemniser takes years of training at your own expense, along with no holiday/sick pay, and you've to pay the usual taxes. Being self-employed in this country is no joke. Having a celebrant/Solemniser is an optional service for those who choose it, nobody is being forced to pay €450.

I'd love to know how you go about becoming a solemniser and what sort of training you do. Ay chance you could you fill us in seeing as you are going through the process?

fannymagee

Extraplus wrote: »

I'd love to know how you go about becoming a solemniser and what sort of training you do. Ay chance you could you fill us in seeing as you are going through the process?

Sooo, where do I begin?! When I was a little girl....

Only joking. Right, so I'm training to be an Interfaith Minister, which means I work with people of all faiths and none. I do not believe in dogma, whatever an individual believes (or doesn't) is fine by me, and we create ceremonies with that understanding.

Training takes two years, one weekend per month in London, 10 months per year. Each weekend is spent studying a different faith path, which covers all of the major world religions, as well as Humanism, Atheism etc.

There are assignments in between weekends, and monthly spiritual counselling requirements, monthly study groups and monthly mentoring- EVERY month. It is full on.

The training fees are in sterling, and travel, accommodation and food is not provided.

I started in 2014, and I will be ordained in July 2016, and can then take the title of Rev. if I choose. I currently work as a (non-legal) Celebrant for weddings, funerals, baby namings etc, and from August 2016 (post ordination) I will be able to legally Solemnise weddings in Ireland (Rep & NI), Scotland and Wales.

I think that's it in a nutshell! It is INTENSE, and expensive both in time and money, esp with sterling the way it currently is! But with all that said, I LOVE it, and I can't say enough good about the course. If anyone wants any further info feel free to PM me, they're currently taking bookings for the 2015 intake (if I haven't scared you off haha)

Any questions, just shout!

Electric Sheep

Peregrinus wrote: »

The Brehon law codes have a great deal to say about marriage, but little or nothing about weddings;

Unlike modern Ireland, where you hear so much about weddings but so little about marriage, and where couples are happy to pay 1000+ for a wedding dress, but balk at paying the celebrant.

Milly33

So it is quite intense, well done to you. How come you have to travel to the UK then do they not do any courses in Ireland, and are the exams etc expensive? Thanks for all the information it is nice to know

fannymagee

Milly33 wrote: »

So it is quite intense, well done to you. How come you have to travel to the UK then do they not do any courses in Ireland, and are the exams etc expensive? Thanks for all the information it is nice to know

There aren't exams as such Milly33, it's all experiential training, with continuous assessment of personal readiness. The Interfaith Foundation don;t run courses in Ireland, there are usu about 30 in the class each year, with just a small handful from Ireland so the demand isn't there just yet. The training is incredibly high quality. I've already done a Masters in Psychotherapy with DCU, and this is on a par, it's really well done. I'm not sure if I can post links here, but if you google Interfaith Foundation you'll get the main training site :-)

It's not a course to 'become a solemniser' though, it's about becoming an Interfaith Minister, which means taking Ordination vows, and working by a very strong Code of Ethics, which are based in respect and equality of ALL, regardless of belief (or none), gender (or none), orientation, nationality, financial status etc etc- they're on the website (under 'about us') if you'd like to look them up

Interfaith Ministers are open to all, and being eligible to be solemnise weddings is a small part of the whole. I'm originally an obs & gynae nurse and a perinatal psychotherapist, so I work a lot with stillbirth and miscarriage both from a psychotherapeutic and spiritual (if appropriate) perspective. I absolutely LOVE my work. And being a single mother who still hasn't finished paying for my psychotherapy MSc and am now halfway through more (expensive!) training, it'll be a LOOOONG time before I'm rich haha. But you know what? I'm happy. And maybe I'll be in debt for the forseeable, but I'll get there in the end.

So hopefully that's a bit of context for what's behind the making of just one wedding solemniser, I can only speak for myself! I will spend more time doing funerals than weddings, but weddings are a welcome opportunity to earn some cash to keep all the other balls in the air. I will never see anyone stuck for a ceremony (of any sort), and my weddings for couples who are excited to work with me are a hugely important part of keeping it all afloat.

WOW, I really hadn't intended to write so much! But in order to answer your question fully, I suppose I needed to give the background context- from the heart :-)

Extraplus

Wow, thanks a million fannymagee, extremely interesting and informative posts!

It really comes across as a vocation for you, it sounds like you will be great at it. Best of luck with it all.