Possible transphobia in marriage equality video

Demonique

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMPRo4fqziE

‘Plus I couldn’t sleep if I thought the law of this land wouldn’t let top blokes like Anne Doyle marry some other geezer.’

The tired 'she looks like a man' joke, it could be seen as transphobia and is definately sexist IMO as it's insulting a woman based on her looks.

Dustin has always made jokes about Anne Doyle over the years (as he has with many other famous faces in RTÉ), jokes that almost certainly wouldn't have been made if she was truly uncomfortable with them. I'm sure she takes it all in her stride. It's somewhat clichéd and crude but that kind of humour has always been what Dustin is well known and popular for.

Personally I think one would really have to be in the "overly zealous Tumblr SJW" mode and actively looking to be offended wherever possible to have a serious gripe with this video.

LegacyUser

Deleted User wrote: »

Dustin has always made jokes about Anne Doyle over the years (as he has with many other famous faces in RTÉ), jokes that almost certainly wouldn't have been made if she was truly uncomfortable with them. I'm sure she takes it all in her stride. It's somewhat clichéd and crude but that kind of humour has always been what Dustin is well known and popular for.

Personally I think one would really have to be in the "overly zealous Tumblr SJW" mode and actively looking to be offended wherever possible to have a serious gripe with this video.

Ha ha trannies am I right, really trannies have nothing to do with gay marraige so who cares?

BuffyBot

Doylephobic, perhaps.

As said Dustin's ribbing of Anne Doyle is long running.

Even when the issue is as serious as this, people run the risk of being way too po-faced and seeking out issues where they simply don't exist.

I can't believe I've taken minutes out of my life to defend a puppet turkey's comedy schtick.

LegacyUser

BuffyBot wrote: »

Doylephobic, perhaps.

As said Dustin's ribbing of Anne Doyle is long running.

Even when the issue is as serious as this, people run the risk or being way too po-faced and seeking out issues where they simply don't exist.

I can't believe I've taken minutes out of my life to defend a puppet turkey's comedy schtick.

The precipitation that the lgb don't care about trans issues and an now there is an equality video making fun of us. Hell this forum for years faught to keep the T from lgbt in the forum name. How can a group for equality justify making fun of trans people but in the end it ends up from gay people in the end as ha ha trannies am I right? Just like always.

I don't know why I would expect gay people to stand up for people especially on this forum that has a history of not caring about trans stuf.

I bet mods won't even approve this post

One eyed Jack

Throwaway yuhjjh wrote: »

The precipitation that the lgb don't care about trans issues and an now there is an equality video making fun of us. Hell this forum for years faught to keep the T from lgbt in the forum name. How can a group for equality justify making fun of trans people but in the end it ends up from gay people in the end as ha ha trannies am I right? Just like always.

I don't know why I would expect gay people to stand up for people especially on this forum that has a history of not caring about trans stuf.

I bet mods won't even approve this post

Ann Doyle isn't transgender?

I'm also old enough to remember when Ann Doyle was on The Den and she was able to speak for herself. She wasn't in the least bit offended by the back and forth between them.

President Mary Robinson at the time was also able to take a joke in the spirit it was meant, as were many other well known Irish personalities at the time.

And as for the ribbing he used give Ray D'arcy...

Demonique

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ann Doyle isn't transgender?

I'm also old enough to remember when Ann Doyle was on The Den and she was able to speak for herself. She wasn't in the least bit offended by the back and forth between them.

President Mary Robinson at the time was also able to take a joke in the spirit it was meant, as were many other well known Irish personalities at the time.

And as for the ribbing he used give Ray D'arcy...

Ann Doyle finding it offensive doesn't mean other people can't find it offensive. I'm not trans, but I find 'she looks like a man' jokes offensive and sexist.

One eyed Jack

Demonique wrote: »

Ann Doyle finding it offensive doesn't mean other people can't find it offensive. I'm not trans, but I find 'she looks like a man' jokes offensive and sexist.

I understand why you would find it offensive and all, but if Ann Doyle herself never found it offensive, that's good enough for me.

Also, you did say in your thread title - "Possible transphobia", which reads to me at least like you can't tell the difference between this, and actual transphobia.

Throwaway 56789

Throwaway 56789 wrote: »

Ha ha trannies am I right, really trannies have nothing to do with gay marraige so who cares?

Whatever you're blabbering on about here has absolutely nothing to do with my post.

Throwaway yuhjjh wrote: »

How can a group for equality justify making fun of trans people but in the end it ends up from gay people in the end as ha ha trannies am I right? Just like always.

This particular video isn't making fun of trans people, that's a huge mental leap to make. Transphobia is not something that should be tolerated in society but it's probably better to tackle it when/where it actually exists.

I don't know why I would expect gay people to stand up for people especially on this forum that has a history of not caring about trans stuf.

I bet mods won't even approve this post

Ah, the mask slips and the true agenda becomes clear.

Demonique wrote: »

Ann Doyle finding it offensive doesn't mean other people can't find it offensive. I'm not trans, but I find 'she looks like a man' jokes offensive and sexist.

Context is important though. It's not some sinister, transphobic element making these jokes, it's a children's entertainer. You can choose to be offended by a relatively benign joke if you want, just don't expect everyone to agree with you that it's a pressing issue.

LegacyUser

Deleted User wrote: »

Whatever you're blabbering on about here has absolutely nothing to do with my post.



This particular video isn't making fun of trans people, that's a huge mental leap to make. Transphobia is not something that should be tolerated in society but it's probably better to tackle it when/where it actually exists.



Ah, the mask slips and the true agenda becomes clear.
Reported for trolling.



Context is important though. It's not some sinister, transphobic element making these jokes, it's a children's entertainer. You can choose to be offended by a relatively benign joke if you want, just don't expect everyone to agree with you that it's a pressing issue.

People seem to forget the hate trans people got on this forum, it took years of fighting with mods just for them to add the T to lgbt, people like kazobel where made fun and banned told the forum was for gay people.

Now a equality video is making transopbic jokes cause hey who care trans people are third class people in the lgbt world and now gay people in this forum don't see a problem with it.

Aard

Can we all just stop and remind ourselves that this hullabaloo is about a conversation between two puppets involving a passing comment about one of the most recognisable lgbt-supporters in the country who looks nothing remotely like a man?

Boards.ie LGBT Forum -- continuing to deliver after all these years!

Links234

Honestly, it'd strike me as sexist moreso than transphobic. In the video, Dustin also makes some quip about being a bloke and a bird (ha ha!) but it's not something that's gotten my feathers in a ruffle either. I think the joke was unfunny, but that's it really.

Demonique

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Also, you did say in your thread title - "Possible transphobia", which reads to me at least like you can't tell the difference between this, and actual transphobia.

I said possible transphobia because I'm not trans myself but I recognised that trans people might find it offensive and I don't want to label something transphobic without being trans myself. I'm a member of a minority group and I'm not a fan of people who are not members of my group labelling things offensive to my group when most members of my group don't care so I thought I'd extend the same courtesy to trans people.

LegacyUser

Demonique wrote: »

I said possible transphobia because I'm not trans myself but I recognised that trans people might find it offensive and I don't want to label something transphobic without being trans myself. I'm a member of a minority group and I'm not a fan of people who are not members of my group labelling things offensive to my group when most members of my group don't care so I thought I'd extend the same courtesy to trans people.

Thank you as a trans person I do find it offensive

Links234

You know, I think it's good for folks to bring these kind of things up, there can be fruitful discussions on the matter and by asking "is X offensive to this group?" you can get the perspectives of people from that group. I will say that trans people are not a monolith, and while I certainly don't find the joke in question transphobic or hurtful, maybe some would? But I don't think it's particularly helpful to give the OP a hard time over it either. I may not find it transphobic, others might not, but if someone might be wondering if something is, then they shouldn't hesitate to ask.

One eyed Jack

Demonique wrote: »

I said possible transphobia because I'm not trans myself but I recognised that trans people might find it offensive and I don't want to label something transphobic without being trans myself. I'm a member of a minority group and I'm not a fan of people who are not members of my group labelling things offensive to my group when most members of my group don't care so I thought I'd extend the same courtesy to trans people.

I'm not going to apologise for saying this, but that is truly one of the most facepalm inducing justifications I've ever heard for appropriating offence on behalf of other people.

In case you're wondering in future should you ever be faced with a similar situation (which I have no doubt will be soon enough), ask people is it offensive to them, rather than taking offence on their behalf. That's simply embarrassing for everyone as it assumes that people should be offended by it rather than asking them if they are offended.

You're basically focusing on the issue and failing to acknowledge the person.

LegacyUser

this is why so many trans people, especially trans women get so tired of the LGB "allies". our voices really don't matter. if we raise concern with something it's explained away.

LegacyUser

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm not going to apologise for saying this, but that is truly one of the most facepalm inducing justifications I've ever heard for appropriating offence on behalf of other people.

In case you're wondering in future should you ever be faced with a similar situation (which I have no doubt will be soon enough), ask people is it offensive to them, rather than taking offence on their behalf. That's simply embarrassing for everyone as it assumes that people should be offended by it rather than asking them if they are offended.

You're basically focusing on the issue and failing to acknowledge the person.

As a trans person I find it offensive but saying that I have no issue with the online usage of fag that no longer means gay but understand some gay people get offended when people online use the word fag.

Just cause you don't find it offensive doesn't mean others might

Links234

One eyed Jack wrote: »

...rather than taking offence on their behalf.

I didn't read it in that way, especially when Demonique framed it in terms of possible and could be seen as, it may have lacked a question but the thread reads more as inquisitive than making a statement/taking offense.

Madame_Diem

I can't say I found it particularly offensive. Like an earlier poster said a bit too SJW. But maybe we should stop making jokes about men in dresses.

LegacyUser

i put no faith in the views of someone who uses the term "SJW" unironically. anti-SJWs are pro-tone policing, victim blaming, respectability politics etc.

it's a slur, don't use it.

J_E

It's a bit rolleyes - I really don't think it's supposed to be read into it further than that.

On another note - nobody else thinks it's a bit weird for Dustin and Bosco to be talking about this? It just felt a little out of character and political.

One eyed Jack

Links234 wrote: »

I didn't read it in that way, especially when Demonique framed it in terms of possible and could be seen as, it may have lacked a question but the thread reads more as inquisitive than making a statement/taking offense.

If it was only myself Links that read it the way I did, I'd be the first to hold my hands up and say fair enough, but it wasn't just me obviously, and the fact that there was no question mark is kinda important because it's little nuances like that which make the difference between a statement, and indeed, a question. As good and all as technology is, it's still far from being that good that it can tell the difference between a statement and a question without a question mark -

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm dyslexic, can't read for shìt, but the TTS abilities on this phone are pretty spiffy (technology, ain't it great ).

That's one of the reasons why statements like "I'm a member of a minority group" really bug me and all, as though that's any reason for assuming that such statements confer on the person some special authority or understanding that nobody else would have but them. I've only got one eye, beat that for a minority group! :pac:

(I'm being facetious, but only in order to illustrate a point I've always made - everyone in society is part of a minority group in one way, and part of a majority group in another way)



Actually I'm just here watching Mrs. Brown's Boys, and I remember a poster a few weeks back claiming that it was transphobic!

Actually she claimed it was akin to those people with an intellectual disability. She used the 'r' word, completely missing the irony of course, not to mention the fact that Brendan O' Carroll himself is dyslexic and all, which actually provides half the comedy in the show if you're aware of it, "condominium"...

Of course if you're aware of context, such as Brendan O' Carroll's background and his inspiration for much of his comedy which is indeed his own mother, you understand that Mrs. Browns Boys has nothing whatsoever to do with making any commentary on anyone who is transgender.

In the same way, the 'straight up for equality' promo video linked by the OP was making no commentary on people who are transgender. One is even reaching to call it sexist, reminds me of the ESA guy that landed the probe, but one woman chose to ignore his achievement and focus on his poor taste in fashion. Seriously, lack of perspective much?

The video in the OP is a campaign message for marriage equality, I don't know where they pulled Dustin and bosco out of, and the dialog is dire, but geez, you're really deliberately missing the point if all you pick up on is possible transphobia or what could be seen as sexism! If you have to look for something that isn't there, in order to put it there, then the responsibility for that is upon the individual, and not those people who can't see it. It's not because other people aren't willing to see it - it's simply because it doesn't exist.

One eyed Jack

Throwaway hjkk wrote: »

As a trans person I find it offensive but saying that I have no issue with the online usage of fag that no longer means gay but understand some gay people get offended when people online use the word fag.

Just cause you don't find it offensive doesn't mean others might

I never said anyone else didn't find it offensive?

That's why I said it's better to ask.

If I may ask, is it only because you are a person who is transgender that you find it offensive?

Because what may seem blatantly obvious to you as transphobia, I'm clearly missing it, and unless I were specifically attuned to it, then I can hardly be blamed for something I just can't see?

You're gonna have to do better than "then you're not looking hard enough" if you actually want me to see what you're seeing.

Either it's obvious and blatant intentional transphobia, or it isn't, and if it isn't, then you're simply blowing something out of proportion and causing people to be dismissive, and the next time you want to point out blatant transphobia, people are just going to say "Oh here you go again", and they're not going to be able to take you seriously.

BuffyBot

Throwaway bjhhj wrote: »

Jokes about blokes in a dress are not blatant transphobia, it's worse cause it comes from an "equality" source but goes to show that lgb still threat trans and the red headed step child

PS: "Throwaway": the anonymous posting function isn't provided for banned posters to return. You can stop now.

PPS: Same applies for you, Harlot.

InitiumNovum

I've been on and off boards.ie for a few years now. The last time I was on here was about 2 years ago, but I deleted my account back then because it was a bit of a distraction. I was quite active on this forum at that time. From my experiences back then I don't think this forum hated transgender people, maybe things have changed, I don't know. All LGBT people have had obstacles to overcome in their lives, some more than others, and I think with that as a basis we can empathize with one another to a large extent on a personal level.

The word "hate" is being thrown around very liberally in this thread, it's a very strong word. If a person A says something that a person B finds offensive, it doesn't necessarily mean that person A hates person B. And how are we truly to tell? It's very hard to make such interpersonal value assessments or ascribe any sort of motive. Objectively, unless we know more about the scenario and context, the only thing we can say with certainty is that person B was offended at something person A said. Therefore, I think that state of being offended in and of itself is rather meaningless, it needs some sort of elaboration to be taken seriously. For all we know, person A might have said what they said without realizing that person B regarded it as offensive.

I think that especially with jokes, it's very hard to ascribe motives. I see one of the functions of comedy as being a means to empathize with people and break the ice, so to speak; breaking down boundaries, encouraging people to become more comfortable with one another. This may sound counterintuitive, but I think that offensive, edgy and low-brow jokes help accomplish this. Call it an "obscene solidarity". It's only when such boundaries are broken that you can say a little bit more about a person's personality, beyond the formalities, and gain a little bit more insight into their motives.

Political correctness does not help this whatsoever, I think it actually creates more boundaries, tension and mistrust. Among the straight friends I'm out of the closet to, we do this sort of "boundary breaking" exercise all the time unbeknownst to ourselves. They'd call me a "f*ggot" and I'd called them a "breeder" in response. I know they don't mean it, because it's blatantly obvious. In hindsight, that's the only way to make an insult like "f*ggot" meaningless or any other word or jokes LGBT people regard as offensive.

Some people might regard this as pandering to a heteronormative or cisnormative society, but I think it's just engaging with human nature. People in general do not like to be patronized to with rigid social discipline in most social interactions, especially casual ones. I'm sure some people will be offended by this but I think if you like to practice political correctness in casual scenarios, then I think you're acting kind of false, possibly unbeknownst to yourself. That said, you have every right to be offended and say that you are offended, but don't tell me that I hate you because only I can truly be the judge of that.

I think that the OP jumping the gun at this Dustin and Bosko video is a good example of what I mentioned above. And I don't blame the OP. We all do this from time to time. The video was very obviously pro-LGBT, you'd need to be completely blind if you couldn't see that, no offence to people with visual disabilities. I think that exonerates any hateful motive towards transgender people on the part of the creator, they clearly did not intend to offend transgender people. Again, that said, you have every right to be offended but that doesn't mean I or anyone else are obliged to take your offence to this video seriously.