A Timely Reminder on Value

Kevinmarkham

There's an in-depth analysis of the comparative costs of green fees at premier golf clubs by Brian Keogh, today. I know people complain about the high green fees, but compare those to the USA and GB and you'll see we offer far better value.

His Treasure Island blog is here.

PS. I realise it still won't stop the complaints about paying €200 for a round of golf.

Dtoffee

Interesting report and we come out of it well, but I can't help wondering why it seems to be a personal selection of green fees and not a comprehensive say top ten (there are high priced courses missing ... The Island / Mt Juliet for example). I would also say that public golf courses are much more common and accessible in the UK, we have far too many county councils that are happy to see golf as an after thought and not develop any interest in promoting the sport. I wonder what the opposite 'cheap golf' survey would say ?

Personally speaking, I see a lot of Council Parkland that could accommodate a Pitch n Putt course at the very least and if set up properly ..... could become a source of employment for people in the future.

mike12

As we were saying in another thread you can find a way to play most of those courses at a rate much cheaper than that published rate.
Was talking to the captain in enniscrone and they suffer in the American market because they are too cheap. If it's not expensive it's not worth playing is the way they think.

Kevinmarkham

Dtoffee wrote: »

Interesting report and we come out of it well, but I can't help wondering why it seems to be a personal selection of green fees and not a comprehensive say top ten (there are high priced courses missing ... The Island / Mt Juliet for example). I would also say that public golf courses are much more common and accessible in the UK, we have far too many county councils that are happy to see golf as an after thought and not develop any interest in promoting the sport. I wonder what the opposite 'cheap golf' survey would say ?

Personally speaking, I see a lot of Council Parkland that could accommodate a Pitch n Putt course at the very least and if set up properly ..... could become a source of employment for people in the future.

The Island would be €150 and Mount Juliet €100, so they're pretty much interchangeable with what's there already.

In terms of 'cheap' golf, I can only direct you to my blog for Ireland's top ten courses at €20 and under.

As for public courses, there are a few around the place in Ireland, but I can't speak for Great Britain. We have plenty of 9 hole courses (see Ivan Morris's new book) and, sadly, many pitch and putt courses have given way to housing developments - just look at Stepaside. There are plenty of others around, and I'm not convinced your argument stacks up - a pitch and putt might only employ 3 people.

Kevinmarkham

mike12 wrote: »

As we were saying in another thread you can find a way to play most of those courses at a rate much cheaper than that published rate.
Was talking to the captain in enniscrone and they suffer in the American market because they are too cheap. If it's not expensive it's not worth playing is the way they think.

Agreed. In fact, of all the courses in the country (based on phoning every single one late last year) Enniscrone has the biggest green fee increase: from €70 to €90. The rationale is to attract the US market.

And yes, always a cheaper rate available. Need I mention the Atlantic Coast Challenge? €135 to play all three courses, when to play Carne (€70), Enniscrone (€90) and Co Sligo (€125) would cost €285 if booked individually.

Dtoffee

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

The Island would be €150 and Mount Juliet €100, so they're pretty much interchangeable with what's there already.

In terms of 'cheap' golf, I can only direct you to my blog for Ireland's top ten courses at €20 and under.

As for public courses, there are a few around the place in Ireland, but I can't speak for Great Britain. We have plenty of 9 hole courses (see Ivan Morris's new book) and, sadly, many pitch and putt courses have given way to housing developments - just look at Stepaside. There are plenty of others around, and I'm not convinced your argument stacks up - a pitch and putt might only employ 3 people.

Firstly, I think 'argument' is a very strong word for you to use .... you made the original post on this tread and I take it in doing so, you would normally expect replies and an ensuing debate. I just pointed out that the courses selected were not based on a dearest criteria, but as I see now.... on a 'best' rating.

Regarding Public Golf Courses, this is not accurate but it gives a clear enough comparison https://www.google.ie/maps/search/public+golf+courses+in+the+uk/@55.3617609,-3.4433238,6z/data=!3m1!4b1 (you may need to zoom in as the original dots disappear)

I think its fair to say that our County Councils could do more to make golf accessible for the masses and if we agree a pitch n putt course could provide employment for three people, then how many could be set up around the country .... and how many more people would take the game up as a result ? I cant see what the problem is with that idea.

I agree we are not the dearest for golf, but by no means does that mean everything is right and I just happen to think we could do a lot more to promote the game for those that may be interested but do not have a golf history in their family.

Ps I do not count turning golf courses into football pitches with flags and bucket sized holes as promoting golf

Kevinmarkham

Dtoffee wrote: »

Firstly, I think 'argument' is a very strong word for you to use .... you made the original post on this tread and I take it in doing so, you would normally expect replies and an ensuing debate. I just pointed out that the courses selected were not based on a dearest criteria, but as I see now.... on a 'best' rating.

Apologies, 'argument' is more a turn of phrase than suggesting your were arguing.

The pitch and putt idea has to be balanced against the 15 golf courses that have closed since 2008 - when Hooked was first published. Apart from Rathsallagh and Kilkea Castle (which may or may not be reopening), those courses were near the bottom end of the scale, i.e. farmers' fields that were turned into courses (Glebe), or basic affairs, like Carnbeg, Harbour Point, Ringdufferin. The green fees were similarly cheap, so a pitch and putt course has a lot to compete against if these courses are failing. And to be fair (whether it's to councils or private organisations) there seem to be plenty of pitch and putts around.

With councils strapped for cash and golf showing a decline in numbers, I don't imagine a public course of any description is going to be high on a council's list...

Dtoffee

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

Apologies, 'argument' is more a turn of phrase than suggesting your were arguing.

The pitch and putt idea has to be balanced against the 15 golf courses that have closed since 2008 - when Hooked was first published. Apart from Rathsallagh and Kilkea Castle (which may or may not be reopening), those courses were near the bottom end of the scale, i.e. farmers' fields that were turned into courses (Glebe), or basic affairs, like Carnbeg, Harbour Point, Ringdufferin. The green fees were similarly cheap, so a pitch and putt course has a lot to compete against if these courses are failing. And to be fair (whether it's to councils or private organisations) there seem to be plenty of pitch and putts around.

With councils strapped for cash and golf showing a decline in numbers, I don't imagine a public course of any description is going to be high on a council's list...

I can see you point and agree that courses have closed and numbers are dropping. However as with many things in life .... its all about location and if farmer Joe opened a golf course many miles from any catchment area, then is was always going to be a risky venture. The two of us may have been lucky enough to have access to golf at an early age, but what if we were born into a family with no interest in golf and no local provision that would allow us start trying out the game .... I doubt if we would have developed the same passion.

I think golf should be accessable locally and if we are to go from Greystones to Portmarnock on the coast ..... there are plenty of highly populated areas that would benefit from an entry level golf game like pitch n putt. Instead of rivalling golf courses, such provisions would actually act as feeders to the game and ensure future generations take up the sport. Lets not forget that the days of a lad and his dad heading down to the local pitch or green with a pitching iron are is long gone as standards of maintenance have risen in the parks n pitches depts. County Council town planners always make provisons for GAA / Soccer, even Tennis but I have not come across a plan to include golf ...... that needs to be challenged by the GUI and others in positions of influence if the game is to be developed.

I want golf to rival other sports in popularity and participation terms, but unless the game is accessible for the masses then it will always remain an elite passtime.