Housing Co-operatives

KomradeBishop

Are there many active housing co-operatives in Ireland - especially those starting from scratch with property development (buying land to build upon and eventually run a co-op), rather than buying existing property to run as a co-op? (though discussion of the latter is welcome too)

There are lots of varieties in how co-ops like this can be setup, but they seem a good way to provide affordable housing (costing far less than bubble-market prices) both for long-term living, and for renting (at low non-profit rental costs) - and would potentially seem like a good way of making co-op parts of the property market more immune to speculative property bubbles, and to excessive rent costs.

Why is this kind of thing not funded more often? It would seem like the kind of thing, that - if it proved to be practical - would be a good thing for future homeowners to invest in, e.g. a co-op that is invested in, being setup to buy land and develop property there (on a not-for-profit basis), with the aim of the investors being the future homeowners.

Would be good to see a discussion on the pros/cons of this kind of setup, and why it is not more prevalent - and what would be needed to do this (particularly past examples of it).
It seems a good way to avoid both excessive house prices and excessive rents - and thus something that future homeowners would probably be interested in coming together to setup and invest in.

snowey07

I had a great chat with some people who have one in Sheffield where it seems quite popular. Theyre all preowned property though not purpose built. Ive had discussions in the past with people about starting one in Dublin but when it came to it no one knew anything about how to approach it legally so they never got further than the dreaming stage

They have been housing co-op in Dublin, the problem is getting the land, Dublin city council offered a site for four apartment to any group who would build it as a co-op don't know how that turned out.

About NABCO


NABCO (National Association of Building Co-operatives) is Ireland’s national federation for the cooperative housing sector. Since its foundation in 1973 co-operative housing has:
• Supported the provision of approximately 5,000 homes across a mix of tenures,
• Taken responsibility for the ongoing management of nearly 1,800 homes available at affordable rents,
• Promoted the development of locally affiliated co-operative societies across Ireland,
• Provided wider community development opportunities such as Childcare and Community Services.



NABCO is a co-operative of co-operatives, currently working with seven affiliated societies in Dublin, Kildare, Galway and Munster. Our local structure means that housing services are always locally owned and locally managed.

KomradeBishop

Cheers - I'd seen the NABCO stuff, which definitely seems to be the most prominent housing co-op organization; it still seems to be relatively small though, and focused towards those in immediate need of housing (need to be on local authority housing lists).

One very notable beneficial thing that they are participating in, is they have gotten funding from the European Investment Bank, for promoting the construction of social housing:
http://www.nabco.ie/Cooperative_housing_to_benefit_from_investment_fund_for_social_housing/Default.867.html

This is a great way of getting funding with low interest rates, which can benefit the Irish economy a lot, the more of it they can secure (there should be a hell of a lot more EIB investment in this kind of thing, really, on a much bigger scale).

So ya, they are a great example - albeit focused specifically on social housing I think; it seems to be a very successful model, which helps ensure a good community, and a low cost of housing and/or rent, so I wonder again, why it is not far more common than it currently seems to be.

Just a slight minor point but housing co-op are a form of social housing.

KomradeBishop

They frequently are, yes, and this seems to be the specific purpose of NABCO, though I believe there is a greater variety of ways in which housing co-ops can be organized; not all housing co-ops are aimed towards social housing for low-income people.

KomradeBishop

KomradeBishop wrote: »

They frequently are, yes, and this seems to be the specific purpose of NABCO, though I believe there is a greater variety of ways in which housing co-ops can be organized; not all housing co-ops are aimed towards social housing for low-income people.

So basically you want a group of people to get together who could afford to buy a home as is, but they want to by pass the builders profit element of the transaction.

Th3B1tcH

Dublin City Council have tried this
http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-housing-city-architects-division/dublin-house

Marcusm

The eco village at Cloughjordan is on this basis.

Diane Selwyn

One of these featured on an episode of Grand Designs Revisited - not Ireland - possibly somewhere near Birmingham (?). I think the participants were lucky to survive the building phase but were all still happily living there a decade or so later.

KomradeBishop

mariaalice wrote: »

So basically you want a group of people to get together who could afford to buy a home as is, but they want to by pass the builders profit element of the transaction.

There are many different forms of co-ops that don't involve social housing ala prioritizing people on a waiting list; I'm looking for discussion/examples of all varieties of co-op, not anything as specific as that.

In principle though, if a co-op is setup to purchase a specific plot of land, and hire builders to develop it for the purpose of permanent living (instead of for reselling on the market), then that will provide some amount of immunity from excessive prices due to property market speculation - and seems like a good thing to encourage/fund, to depress speculation in the property market.

If there are good examples of this, then it seems like something that would be a good idea for future prospective property owners, to look into.

KomradeBishop

Marcusm wrote: »

The eco village at Cloughjordan is on this basis.

Cheers - that's a very interesting project.

KomradeBishop

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Marcusm wrote: »

The eco village at Cloughjordan is on this basis.

Cheers - that's a very interesting project.

Wow, actually - the more I look into that the more interesting it is; <Mod Snip - not within the remit of this forum.>

That village project, is also a very interesting variety of co-op, which - while it seems to leave people who buy land plots to develop it themselves - takes the approach of providing very efficient/'green' community services for homes that are developed there, and requiring home building standards to be equally up to spec.

That place is a really great idea - and would be a good template for other housing co-ops; the idea isn't really suited for adopting in a city, but there'd be a lot to learn from it for city-based co-ops.

dori_dormer

Someone was recently looking for people interested in doing one of these in north Kildare but I think they were still at the dreaming stage as they hadn't Got a group of people together and couldn't really answer any questions people had.

Honestly I think it's a great idea. We should be sharing resources and building costs. We've always dreamed of building our own house but don't want to live in the middle of nowhere and this way you'd get the community and control you'd like without the insane costs and builders profit. Going green would be a massive bonus too. You'd also essentially get to pick your neighbours .

aaronoscar

Hi everyone,

There's a Co-housing event coming up in Cloughjordan (which some of you seem keen to visit) on Thursday 29th October.
I'm a resident here myself and am working with Cultivate on Convergence, the sustainable living festival, which this event is part of.

During this, we'll be bringing together experts on housing development, building and residents from co-housing projects in the UK and will focus on the potential of housing ourselves co-operatively, shared facilities among separate living spaces and explore the potential barriers to co-housing projects.

Unfortunately I can't share a link or post the pdf with more details as I'm still a new user. But if you visit cultivate's website on cultivate.ie you'll find all the info.

<mod snip: posting email addresses is not permitted on boards>

Hope this is useful! Cheers, aaron

quadrifoglio verde

KomradeBishop wrote: »

There are many different forms of co-ops that don't involve social housing ala prioritizing people on a waiting list; I'm looking for discussion/examples of all varieties of co-op, not anything as specific as that.

In principle though, if a co-op is setup to purchase a specific plot of land, and hire builders to develop it for the purpose of permanent living (instead of for reselling on the market), then that will provide some amount of immunity from excessive prices due to property market speculation - and seems like a good thing to encourage/fund, to depress speculation in the property market.

If there are good examples of this, then it seems like something that would be a good idea for future prospective property owners, to look into.

Developer has to make profits because they're taking on the risk associated with building housing. You might lose money.
By the time you go from buying the land to selling the houses, the market could have swung completely and now the only way to sell the houses is at a loss. Planning on the land alone could take years

Good luck trying to find a group of individuals willing to take all thoses risks to save themselves a small amount of money on there home, especially when it comes to the stress involved.

riclad

See here
http://www.habitatireland.ie/renovation/
Theres charitys in the uk
which renovate old houses, usually for people on the housing list .
There have been programs about this on bbc .
As theres 1000,s of empty houses in the uk,
which need basic repairs ,insulation ,new windows .
Dublin city council owns land all over the city.
There have been episodes of grand designs where people build their own houses ,
700-1000 sq ft .Using basic materials .
Alot of the cost of a house in ireland is taxe,s ,council levys and the site cost.
Maybe buy an old house and bring it up to modern standards ,
of insulation, put in new windows ,doors etc
IN many parts of dublin a 3bed semi is 140k
less than the cost of a building a house.

JuliusCaesar

There was a co-housing group in Dublin in the late 90s/early 00s. A co-operative with a slightly different take, more like the eco village in the city

self directed learner

Hello,

I am looking for any information setting up a housing co-operative in the Wexford area. I have not approached nabco just yet but intend to. If anybody here has information on low-cost self-build co-operatives that exist or are in the process of development in Ireland, can you please share your knowledge with me? I would appreciate any advice.

I viewed the Cloughjordan website which is impressive, however I expect this type of project took considerable capital investment which is not an affordable option.

If you are aware of other smaller projects, please let me know and thank you

riclad

The housing coop on grand designs featured mainly working people
it was not aimed at people on welfare, each person had to work x amount of hours per week on a house, the houses were designed in a way that means that no expert people could build em .Eg the walls and floors used basic materials eg the layout of rooms and walls was simple ,
straight lines .no curves .
Most of the people worked in a full time job while doing the work at weekends or after 5pm.Using insulation methods makes it easy to install by anyone with
basic training.

self directed learner

Yes the Grand Designs co-operative project was and still is inspirational, as are many of the other self-builds featured. The level of commitment to the project shows the fierce determination they had to provide homes for themselves and each other with limited financial resources. It is wonderful to see that it can be done when people are prepared to work incredibly hard and as part of a team. I hope they are still enjoying their homes.

orathaic

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Developer has to make profits because they're taking on the risk associated with building housing. You might lose money.
By the time you go from buying the land to selling the houses, the market could have swung completely and now the only way to sell the houses is at a loss. Planning on the land alone could take years

Good luck trying to find a group of individuals willing to take all thoses risks to save themselves a small amount of money on there home, especially when it comes to the stress involved.

You realise that there is no such risk associated with a build to live.

It doesn't matter if the markets swing, because you're final aim is not to sell on the market but to live in the new homes.

Basically none of those risks exist, and instead you pay up front for a dwelling. Now as to what the advantages of doing it as a co-op instead of separate individuals are, i'm not entirely clear.

riclad

You save a large amount of money if the council gives you the site for free ,a charity built 20 units in ballymun for working people on low incomes .Cost 110-130k ,this is way less than the average cost of a new
house built to the latest building regs standard .
See the grand designs coop program, its probably on youtube,
on a housing cost.
Each person gets a house ,but they spend 100,s of hours building ,
its a self build project .
Theres programs on youtube about this ,coops charitys in the usa who build 1000.s
of house,s for people on low incomes .
Builders and experts help out as part of their training ,like many lawyers
do pro bono work for free to help people on low incomes .
Part of the training of an architect is to design and actually help build
a house .
IF you live in these homes you sign a contract to live there for 20 plus years and to pay a fee for basic maintenance of the common area,s
gates ,paths etc
Builders pay many fees ,vat etc which a charity can avoid .
charitys may get a site free or at a low cost.
To buy materials in bulk for 50 houses that use one design is cheaper than building
one house and the point of a charity is many people do the work for free ,
Anyone in good health can be training in painting, tiling , putting up plasterboard ,
insulation, putting up roof tiles .mixing cement,plaster .
see this old house videos on youtube .

newacc2015

I cant see how housing co-ops working on mass scale here. There is too many vested interests when it comes to housing the homeless/low income in Ireland. Look at the sheer number of homeless charities in Dublin(there is about 10 all doing the same thing) who all have massive boards with CEOs etc a lot of who are extremely well paid. A housing charity good a brand new apartment block off the Government for free and is now letting it back to DCC at market rate. These charities aka thinly veiled businesses are going to do everything in their power to undermine anything that could stop them being needed

Brioscai

Would love to know if there are any of these in the greater Dublin area. Not considered low income but love the idea of creating a community of like minded people. A Cloughjordan near Dublin would be the ideal!

Marcusm

Brioscai wrote: »

Would love to know if there are any of these in the greater Dublin area. Not considered low income but love the idea of creating a community of like minded people. A Cloughjordan near Dublin would be the ideal!

If Wicklow CoCo was willing to lift its"local" needs test for such a development, I could see a possibility. Otherwise residenta sites around Dublin would be too attractive to builders to facilitate a Cloyghjordan density.

mike_2009

There was a scheme here where you contribute to the build you all probably heard about:
https://www.thejournal.ie/housing-list-families-build-homes-3011161-Oct2016/
I'm very interested in the co-housing concept also, my Mum's even reading the book I bought on it.
Good Podcast on Lancaster Co-Housing here (took them 7 years!) - the UK council even give £35K towards development costs now
http://www.houseplanninghelp.com/hph028-how-cohousing-helps-build-a-community-with-mark-westcombe-from-lancaster-cohousing/
I hope more people become aware of this option and maybe come together to put a project together in the coming years.
The BBC had a video on a senior project that opened recently: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35480989
Let's keep our fingers crossed!

Brioscai

That project in Lancaster sounds amazing Mike.

mike_2009

FYI - found a great event on co-housing in Cloughjordan but it was for last year (2016)!!

BUT......Just found a different one for this year. Read about it here:

http://www.cooperativehousing.ie/Irish_Community_Living_Unconferences/Default.1186.html

The registration page is here:
http://irishcommunitylivingunconference.weebly.com
It's being held in Cork, Dublin and Galway. Don't miss out!!

Btw: There is another Org here that appears to be offering Co-Housing but the large numbers (376 in one development?) make me wonder though?
http://www.ocualann.ie/index.html

If anyone else hears of anything else happening on Co-Housing in Ireland please post links etc!

LirW

Bringing this up because I read the article here:

https://www.dublininquirer.com/2017/06/06/how-did-a-co-op-build-affordable-homes-in-ballymun-and-can-it-be-done-elsewhere/

It does sound very interesting and I'd love to hear some opinions on this.
I live not too far away and my son has classmates living in the Poppintree area and I know it would put a lot of potential buyers off. Nontheless I think this is a brilliant idea.

Sleepy

Seems the main reason it could work was because the council gave them the land for pennies on the pound and wrote off the development levy.

Something tells me it's the sort of scheme that a few lucky people get to benefit from and the council get to show off their "innovative thinking" and "support for the community" but that would never be rolled out en-masse because it'd bankrupt the council.

mel123

I know someone in this co-op, and its been going on years and years, many many times looked like it wasnt going ahead....just a bit of useless info :-)

LirW

That's interesting because in the article it appears that it is fairly recent. Do you know if they paid for their houses years ago or just now? Because that wouldn't mean a lot then when it says there are houses from 140k up.

mel123

LirW wrote: »

That's interesting because in the article it appears that it is fairly recent. Do you know if they paid for their houses years ago or just now? Because that wouldn't mean a lot then when it says there are houses from 140k up.

I cant be certain, i havnt been talking to him in a good while, but i imagine they are paying todays cost. The whole thing must be at least 10 years old now if not more, so when you consider waiting that long and everything thats gone on between, it probably isnt as glorious as it sounds.

Mrs OBumble

They got the land from the council with the stipulation that it be used for "co-op housing".

Will the people moving into the houses own them once they've finished paying off their mortgages, or not? Or is there some clause that the house can only be sold back to the co-op?

LirW

Article indicates that there is full ownership but a clawback clause. If the owners of a house sell within a certain time after buying (doesn't say how long exactly) they have to give half of the selling price back to the council. They implied this to make sure these homes are not used as investments and can be sold for a lot more just after a few years but people intend to stay there long term.
It also says that 70% of the people moving in are from the area.

The clawback clause made it difficult for people getting a mortgage on the place but it seems like it worked out in the end.

Sleepy

I really couldn't be more against such a model tbh. By all means, I'd be in favour of the council providing project assistance to a co-op looking to reduce their private building costs but, while there are some strings attached, each of these homeowners has effectively been gifted in excess of €50k by the tax payer.

mike_2009

One of the new owners are a couple earning 50K between them. How they can expect to find a house in their budget to own and live in Dublin by paying market prices - that day is long gone. Yet should they not have an opportunity to do just that?
Housing cooperatives set up the budget and I applaud the price this one managed to obtain....well done to them and congrats to the lucky new owners....

LirW

I get the point when it upsets people that can buy houses that cheap. But mike has a point there: People with an income of 50k don't have endless choices in Dublin. If these people plan families then it's even worse. It gives people and especially families somewhat of a perspective, because if they want to buy it would take them in the area of Portlaoise and towns in similar distances to be able to buy. Is it really a solution to push lower income families out?
These people still pay for their houses, they pay all they can afford into a mortgage. Also there is no income limitation, even as a high income earner you can buy into this. So it's not that these people are oozing from entitlement and want everything handed for free. I do feel for them because we were in a similar situation and it was really difficult.

Browney7

Sleepy wrote: »

I really couldn't be more against such a model tbh. By all means, I'd be in favour of the council providing project assistance to a co-op looking to reduce their private building costs but, while there are some strings attached, each of these homeowners has effectively been gifted in excess of €50k by the tax payer.

Or the council pays "market" rent for four years to a private landlord via HAP and that makes up the 50k instead?

Graham

Sleepy wrote: »

I really couldn't be more against such a model tbh. By all means, I'd be in favour of the council providing project assistance to a co-op looking to reduce their private building costs but, while there are some strings attached, each of these homeowners has effectively been gifted in excess of €50k by the tax payer.

I really rather like this type of model. Even though you may consider the sites are 'gifted', the recipients have to contribute in the form of hundreds of hours work.

I suspect the land used for such project had already been earmarked for social housing so this type of project must work out more cost effective for local authorities who could have otherwise spend multiples of 50k building houses only to risk them being sold off to tenants for a fraction of that amount in the future.

I can only imagine there's a great sense of community in this type of development, that's got to have significant cost/societal benefits over the long term.

Mrs OBumble

Graham wrote: »

I really rather like this type of model. Even though you may consider the sites are 'gifted', the recipients have to contribute in the form of hundreds of hours work.

I suspect the land used for such project had already been earmarked for social housing so this type of project must work out more cost effective for local authorities who could have otherwise spend multiples of 50k building houses only to risk them being sold off to tenants for a fraction of that amount in the future.

I can only imagine there's a great sense of community in this type of development, that's got to have significant cost/societal benefits over the long term.

Eh? What work do the recipients do?

Graham

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Eh? What work do the recipients do?

Sorry Mrs B, the project I'm familiar with was the Grand Designs one mentioned earlier in the thread. It looks like the Poppintree development didn't contain the sweat-equity element that I referred to.

KathleenF

For anyone looking for more detail on this, ocualann.ie is worth a look. Hugh Brennan is the head guy on this, very decent and experienced fella. First five purchasers due to move in by the end of the month I think. Great scheme for those lucky enough to get on it. Ts and Cs apply and it's not for everyone, but if it can succeed in Dublin it can succeed anywhere in the country IMO. Quality of houses is unreal, all A2 BER.

KathleenF

Graham wrote: »

Sorry Mrs B, the project I'm familiar with was the Grand Designs one mentioned earlier in the thread. It looks like the Poppintree development didn't contain the sweat-equity element that I referred to.

No it doesn't, cash equity only!

KathleenF

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

They got the land from the council with the stipulation that it be used for "co-op housing".

Will the people moving into the houses own them once they've finished paying off their mortgages, or not? Or is there some clause that the house can only be sold back to the co-op?

Yes they will and can sell them to whoever they want. Clawback expires after ten years.

Sleepy

Graham wrote: »

Sorry Mrs B, the project I'm familiar with was the Grand Designs one mentioned earlier in the thread. It looks like the Poppintree development didn't contain the sweat-equity element that I referred to.

For that form of co-op I could support the knock-down price of the site or the waiving of development levies - the home-owner will have "earned" the equity.

As KathleenF says, the clawback on these properties where no such contribution has been made, expires in ten years. That's a relatively short period of home-ownership. The lucky few that get to take advantage of it, benefit greatly and at the expense of the taxpayer: many of whom are no better off, or even worse off, than they.

This type of scheme is un-scalable. Our Local Authorities can't afford to subsidise the building of every home in their county. And to cherry pick such a small number of homeowners is inequitable in the extreme.

Had the site been sold at it's commercial value, the council would have been able to lower (or waive) development levies across a much larger number of housing units - benefitting far more of their citizens.

Now, while there's almost certainly a strategic developmental aim here (i.e. to increase home ownership levels in the greater Ballymun area and to hopefully gain the societal benefits that usually brings), it's one with an extremely narrow focus and it's quite a gamble. How many of us would be all that surprised to see the council purchasing or renting these homes to be used as social housing in 15 years time?

mike_2009

FYI - there's an event taking place in Dublin next week regarding Co-Housing...
https://soa.ie