The frustration of buying a tractor

yellow50HX

Been on the look out for a tractor for a few years now, been looking to upgrade my trusty ford 7610 for something more modern, about 100hp, one with 4wd and ideally power shuttle and loader. But finding it harder and harder to find one without spending over the odds.

Want to upgrade as while I could just replace the tractor with say a 7810 or other 25 year old 4wd tractor I'd still be paying around 10k to just come up a few years. The big worry I have would be if the digger dies a death, reckon it has over 25k hours on the clock and while it's going well it does a lot of work here and the tractor isn't suitable for feeding silage bales. So I need something that will be able to do all the loader work and tractor work, while I can semi retire the digger and squeeze a few more years old of it.

Have spent a lot of time looking and reading up on different makes and models and budget permitting I have it down to newhollands either Tl90/100 or TS90/100/110, ( really like the Ts115 but it's just a bit too big for the yard and sheds).

Have been finding that every time I scrape a few more bob to add to the budget the cost for the same tractor just goes up. I have around 15k plus my own to play with but every time I mention my yoke I get some BS that's only worth pittance for export yet I see identical machines being offered for 6-7k, which means I should be able to get something around 20k.

I did look at changing the digger and getting an older 4wd and keeping the 7610 but the price of a decent upgrade would be more then changing the tractor.

Is it just me but do dealers seem to just asking stupid money for tractors that are 15 years old. Can't justify buying new, and while nearly new ones have ok value they are still out of my price range. Can't see the logic of spending 15-20k on a 20 year old tractor with high hours. And it's like banging my head off a brick wall.

blue5000

How about changing the digger?

tomwaterford

Sell your own tractor at say 6K add to your 15 and you've around 20ish

Would ya not go well up in the years at say 40K and spread out the payments over 4-5 years on the other 20K ??

yellow50HX

blue5000 wrote: »

How about changing the digger?

Completely rebuilt digger engine a few years ago but due to the high hours on it I wouldn't get the price of that back on selling it. Would need to be going up to about 15-16k to get something in the mid to late 90's. Would still need to spend a few bob to upgrade the tractor as otherwise I'd be looking to change that in a year or too as the 2wd is holding it back a bit.

yellow50HX

tomwaterford wrote: »

Sell your own tractor at say 6K add to your 15 and you've around 20ish

Would ya not go well up in the years at say 40K and spread out the payments over 4-5 years on the other 20K ??

Wouldn't be able to sell the tractor until I had something lined up to replace it, was down this route a few years ago, had a buyer for the tractor for 6k and had agreed a price on a 7635 from a dealer only at the last moment for the dealer to say he had an other bidder and wanted another €1500 which quickly rose to 2k so I said sell it to the other lad, tractor was still in his yard a month later. Felt a bit if a prick telling the lad buying mine the deal was off but he was ok when I told him the story.

Getting newer one would be nice, but it would have to be a very good deal but with mortgage and car loan already here another one would be a stretch.

tomwaterford

yellow50HX wrote: »

Wouldn't be able to sell the tractor until I had something lined up to replace it, was down this route a few years ago, had a buyer for the tractor for 6k and had agreed a price on a 7635 from a dealer only at the last moment for the dealer to say he had an other bidder and wanted another €1500 which quickly rose to 2k so I said sell it to the other lad, tractor was still in his yard a month later. Felt a bit if a prick telling the lad buying mine the deal was off but he was ok when I told him the story.

Your as well not be dealing with the gangsters like that!!

I taught with summer coming up you'd be free with feeding etc for few weeks to give you a chance to sell your own and shop around as imo a lot of dealers do t want the hassle of putting older tractors through there hands....could you contact an exporter

yellow50HX

tomwaterford wrote: »

Your as well not be dealing with the gangsters like that!!

I taught with summer coming up you'd be free with feeding etc for few weeks to give you a chance to sell your own and shop around as imo a lot of dealers do t want the hassle of putting older tractors through there hands....could you contact an exporter

Need it for a good while yet, tractor is busiest in spring and summer, ploughing, tilling, rolling, fertilzer, spraying, topping and mowing

onyerbikepat

I know the feeling. I've been in a similar situation myself. It gets to the stage where you'd wonder if you would be better buying a new tractor altogether. The price of 20 year old, good make tractors is just madness.

Robson99

You could get a new Zetor for around 40k. Better value than overpriced 2nd hand yolks IMO

raypallas

Would totally agree, looking to get one of my own but would need at 15k to get anything decent wit a bit of power. Mad money for tractors with a lot of work done.

yellow50HX

Yeah, was seriously looking at a T5105, seriously nice tractor. To be honest it's actually a better value deal as in 5 years time I'd have a paid off tractor. If they threw in a loader I might be interested.

yellow50HX

Robson99 wrote: »

You could get a new Zetor for around 40k. Better value than overpriced 2nd hand yolks IMO

Nope no interest in one of them.

Robson99

The stigma of being a poor mans tractor is well gone from them

Reggie.

The reason second hand tractors are so expensive is because that's where all the dealers profits come from. Very little profits these days in new tractors

yellow50HX

Robson99 wrote: »

The stigma of being a poor mans tractor is well gone from them

They are not bad tractor but they are no better then a 10-15 year old NH or massey, still using dry clutches and older technology.

Count Mondego

yellow50HX wrote: »

Nope no interest in one of them.

Have one myself that the auld lad bought new three years ago. Granted, they are basic, but a new tractor is new. You have no idea what a second hand tractor has been through. You can drop 5k very quick on a 10 year old tractor. Buy the zetor and spend another 60 quid on green paint and a siren.

yellow50HX

Count Mondego wrote: »

Have one myself that the auld lad bought new three years ago. Granted, they are basic, but a new tractor is new. You have no idea what a second hand tractor has been through. You can drop 5k very quick on a 10 year old tractor. Buy the zetor and spend another 60 quid on green paint and a siren.

Neighbour has bought 2 new and raves about them, but when it came to getting a new one last year they went for a claas

onyerbikepat

Reggie. wrote: »

The reason second hand tractors are so expensive is because that's where all the dealers profits come from. Very little profits these days in new tractors

Donedeal is killing the dealers too. Farmers can sell privatey and get a better deal overall.

How about a Kubota?

blue5000

50 did you ever think of going over to cheffins auction? I know sterling is crazy at the moment, but because of it their prices might be down a bit too. A rough ballpark is £100=€150.

Any chance you could stick a pic up of your 76, maybe you could take it over to Cheffins. The very tatty ones sell badly over there, but collectors are keen for the later ones in good condition.

http://www.cheffins.co.uk/machinery/

Another (weird) option might be to buy a 4wd 76?

If you sign up to them you can view the reserves after the auction.

davidk1394

Would you think about buying a 120hp tractor ? The 100hp range are the most expensive of all the tractors. a 120 hp tractor is nearly the same price and you have the extra bit of power on tap aswell

foxy farmer

davidk1394 wrote: »

Would you think about buying a 120hp tractor ? The 100hp range are the most expensive of all the tractors. a 120 hp tractor is nearly the same price and you have the extra bit of power on tap aswell

Spot on there. Bought a JD 6400 for 25k back in 05. Was qouted a figure of 21k by secondhand dealer 2 yrs ago. Engine had been done and brakes checked. 4k drop in 8 yrs not bad.

White Clover

Robson99 wrote: »

The stigma of being a poor mans tractor is well gone from them

Couldn't agree more. While my main tractor now is a Massey, we still have an old zetor. Imo superior tractor to 168 or 5000 of same era. Absolutely reliable. The only people u would hear complaining about Zetor are lads that never had them.

Count Mondego

Are lads buying tractor too big nowdays. Who outside of a very large farmer or contractor needs a 120hp tractor. The diesel consumption of one of these must be massive. Neighbour of mine has 60 acres and a big auld JD that is at least 100hp and all he does it put out a few bales in winter and spread fertilizer in spring, absolutely no work that's above 70hp.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Count Mondego wrote: »

Are lads buying tractor too big nowdays. Who outside of a very large farmer or contractor needs a 120hp tractor. The diesel consumption of one of these must be massive. Neighbour of mine has 60 acres and a big auld JD that is at least 100hp and all he does it put out a few bales in winter and spread fertilizer in spring, absolutely no work that's above 70hp.

Slurry. You are spreading a large quantity of slurry in a limited time period with weather and closed periods to stop you.

You either have a large tank with the tractor to pull it in sometimes touch-and-go conditions or you go with a contractor with little control over when you spread.

I'm working away with 95hp and a 1600gal tanker but if i was to go to 2000gal i would want 110-120 hp to pull the tank on some of the heavier/sloped fields.

davidk1394

We're looking at a tractor ourselves. A 165 hp tractor is nearly the same price for a 130 hp machine. Thinking of spending the extra 2k for the extra bitta hp

Farmer Pudsey

davidk1394 wrote: »

Would you think about buying a 120hp tractor ? The 100hp range are the most expensive of all the tractors. a 120 hp tractor is nearly the same price and you have the extra bit of power on tap aswell

davidk1394 wrote: »

We're looking at a tractor ourselves. A 165 hp tractor is nearly the same price for a 130 hp machine. Thinking of spending the extra 2k for the extra bitta hp

Maybe you should get a 200HpP tractor.

ford 5600

davidk1394 wrote: »

We're looking at a tractor ourselves. A 165 hp tractor is nearly the same price for a 130 hp machine. Thinking of spending the extra 2k for the extra bitta hp

You are hardly going from a 70 odd hp Davy Brown to a 165 hp tractor, ?

Count Mondego

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Slurry. You are spreading a large quantity of slurry in a limited time period with weather and closed periods to stop you.

Well, fair enough depending on your circumstances. It costs me 700 for a contractor to agitate and spread 80-90k slurry. He has it all done in about five hours where with my own tank I'd be 3 days. Hard to justify that hardware for one job in my opinion.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Count Mondego wrote: »

Well, fair enough depending on your circumstances. It costs me 700 for a contractor to agitate and spread 80-90k slurry. He has it all done in about five hours where with my own tank I'd be 3 days. Hard to justify that hardware for one job in my opinion.

Yeah, thats why i have a smaller tank, just for staying ahead of the slurry when the contractor is late. I don't have that much spare time to be spreading so he can do in a day what i can do in a week.

Farmer Pudsey

Over the last 5ish years a lot of older tractors have been exported. This has allowed some farmers to upgrade on the cheap. Recently a neighbour got a mid 90's MF390 4Wd (shuttle and only 3K genuine hours) for 12K along with a an old MF 275 2wd. However this has swallowed up a huge amount of tractors in the 10-20 year 90hp bracket.

Most of these 90hp were ex dairy farmers tractors. Going beyond 90hp for most farmers costs too much in running costs and if you take on thing like slurry spreading or buying a baler you are adding a lot of extra hours to your farming week. I make bales and feed with a 60hp 2wd tractor. It runs on a whiff of diesel and if it stops usually I can get it going myself. My 4WD tractor spends most of the winter parked. It about 80HP.

I question if you really even need a 90Hp tractor for general farm work. However that would be as farm as I would go. Like a couple other posters said time consumed by spreading slurry etc is not there on most drystock farms either because of being part time or workload if full time. When you add all the cost up you are saving only 4-5 euro for ever hours work.

onyerbikepat

There's a very definite ratio between the weight of a silage bale and the demand for a certain tractor size.

I've a 65 HP tractor and I honestly can't remember when I was short of HP. Small holding, small tractor and let the contractor do the heavy work.

49801

Is there not also added protection on the finance of a a new tractor.... In that if something major goes wrong that should not of happened like transmission or engine there is more clot from the finance company to sort it out?
If it is not sorted out you can walk away having paid a lease.

Farmer Pudsey

49801 wrote: »

Is there not also added protection on the finance of a a new tractor.... In that if something major goes wrong that should not of happened like transmission or engine there is more clot from the finance company to sort it out?
If it is not sorted out you can walk away having paid a lease.

How long will a lease last 4? 5? years. You also have to remember that after 6-8 months you have more equity in the tractor than most repairs will cost.

yellow50HX

davidk1394 wrote: »

Would you think about buying a 120hp tractor ? The 100hp range are the most expensive of all the tractors. a 120 hp tractor is nearly the same price and you have the extra bit of power on tap aswell

120hp would be nice but I don't need all that power. The main power hungry jobs I have are mowing with a 9 ft mounted mower and rotovating with a 2.4m rotovator. Also do a bit of trailer work. If I had my own chopper baler then I'd look at something around 120hp.

The other thing is a 120 hp tractor would be too big as I have tight space in around the sheds, it would be fine for field work and feeding silage but I'd be screwed trying to clean out the calf pens ( use the 7610 to do this at the moment as the digger won't fit in those sheds. Had looked at 7840's and ts115's but I'd still need a smaller sized tractor for the shed work.

yellow50HX

blue5000 wrote: »

50 did you ever think of going over to cheffins auction? I know sterling is crazy at the moment, but because of it their prices might be down a bit too. A rough ballpark is £100=€150.

Any chance you could stick a pic up of your 76, maybe you could take it over to Cheffins. The very tatty ones sell badly over there, but collectors are keen for the later ones in good condition.

http://www.cheffins.co.uk/machinery/

Another (weird) option might be to buy a 4wd 76?

If you sign up to them you can view the reserves after the auction.

Was going over last year with a neighbour but his wife got sick a few days before. With the change in sterling recently finding a bargain and shipping it back wouldn't be as attractive as a few years ago.

yellow50HX

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Slurry. You are spreading a large quantity of slurry in a limited time period with weather and closed periods to stop you.

You either have a large tank with the tractor to pull it in sometimes touch-and-go conditions or you go with a contractor with little control over when you spread.

I'm working away with 95hp and a 1600gal tanker but if i was to go to 2000gal i would want 110-120 hp to pull the tank on some of the heavier/sloped fields.

Have a contractor do the slurry but if I was the get one myself then I'd get a decent sized one say 1600-2000 but would need 4wd to pull it. Neighbour has a 1100 and put it out faster with a bucket.

Buford T. Justice XIX

yellow50HX wrote: »

Have a contractor do the slurry but if I was the get one myself then I'd get a decent sized one say 1600-2000 but would need 4wd to pull it. Neighbour has a 1100 and put it out faster with a bucket.

4wd is great for the job alright. I was looking at changing mine last year but got a fright with the prices being looked for. Good luck with the search anyway.

davidk1394

ford 5600 wrote: »

You are hardly going from a 70 odd hp Davy Brown to a 165 hp tractor, ?

Well we hire in a tractor during the summer for baling dumper work and a few other jobs. You would pick up a few jobs if you went looking around

Reggie.

davidk1394 wrote: »

Well we hire in a tractor during the summer for baling dumper work and a few other jobs. You would pick up a few jobs if you went looking around

That's one option

yellow50HX

Reggie. wrote: »

That's one option

One if my neighbours does rent a 6 pot tractor to drive his baler when doing the silage, only needs it for 3-4 days a year so makes sense. His 90hp tractor will more then handle it on the hay and straw.

grazeaway

Have 2 older tractors that were there when I was a kid. Used mostly for light loader work and work in the shed, Only do about 100 hrs each for the last 15 years but allowed me to get a bigger one for everything else outside yard.

If your not going to get offered much for the 7610 then keep it and maybe get a bigger machine but maybe cheaper.

jimmy G M

I think you're making a good choice with a NH TL or TS as you have mentioned. These are generally reliable machines, reasonable to repair, engines good for over 10k hours, might need a clutch around €7k

Here's a plan;

I am not really on top of prices at the moment as we changed our tractor 3 yrs ago, but surely you could pick up a decent 15 yr old one circa €5k hours for circa €18 - €20k on a straight deal? I wouldn't worry about loader for now - you can pick up a decent one over next 18 months for €3 to 4k. HX should do in the interim.

Buy straight, this will open up opportunity of buying from a private sale. The saving on the loader and run up a 3k overdraft in the Bank for a few weeks while you sell off the 7610 privately.

Depending on your preference, you could hold long term or change again in 5 yrs, you'd still have a machine less than 20 yrs old, shouldn't loose any more than 4-5k over the 5 yrs. Unless very unlucky, no major repair bills.

To be honest, unless you have plenty of spare income, I can't see the logic of going for a new machine for a typical medium sized dairy/beef/tillage farm. Buying new @ circa €50k+ would mean borrowing say €30k over 5 yrs, prob €7k pa repayments. How much will new machine have lost in value €12k+? How much more efficient will it have been at doing your work than the 15yr old machine?

Having said all that, Jez I'd love to buy a new tractor.

Corkfarmer

Has anybody priced new tractors lately? Something like the NH T5.105 or Case equivalent?

onyerbikepat

Another reason for buying new is income tax write-off. I haven't crunched the numbers but it's what you save on income tax versus the 'real' depreciation of the tractor over the 8 years.

From an accounting point of view the tractor is worthless after 8 years but in real terms a well minded tractor will last 40 years. Our own one is 39 years old and still going strong.:D

dzer2

yellow50HX wrote: »

120hp would be nice but I don't need all that power. The main power hungry jobs I have are mowing with a 9 ft mounted mower and rotovating with a 2.4m rotovator. Also do a bit of trailer work. If I had my own chopper baler then I'd look at something around 120hp.

The other thing is a 120 hp tractor would be too big as I have tight space in around the sheds, it would be fine for field work and feeding silage but I'd be screwed trying to clean out the calf pens ( use the 7610 to do this at the moment as the digger won't fit in those sheds. Had looked at 7840's and ts115's but I'd still need a smaller sized tractor for the shed work.

Have the shed problem here too as there are 2 I had to muck out by hand. Got a skid steer for this job now. If your yard is tight I would look at skid steer and then you could pick up your bigger tractor and if the arse falls out of the digger then its not a disaster

Farmer Pudsey

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Another reason for buying new is income tax write-off. I haven't crunched the numbers but it's what you save on income tax versus the 'real' depreciation of the tractor over the 8 years.

From an accounting point of view the tractor is worthless after 8 years but in real terms a well minded tractor will last 40 years. Our own one is 39 years old and still going strong.:D

You can write down any tractor it not just new ones that depreciate.

Timmaay

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You can write down any tractor it not just new ones that depreciate.

Genuine question, you write off the full value of a tractor over 8years, then sell it and the person buying it gives you a cheque? Is that considered income and fully taxable in that year, or should you have only being writing off an amount to the actual loss in value of the tractor?

Could do with upgrading tractors here, and get a more compact 90hp 4wd with power shuttle and a loader for my dad, but again silly money to trade up for a new 2nd hand. I'd go all out and get a new 1 but hard to know if my dad will definitely get the use out of it. I've zero interest in driving tractors and would contract almost everything if my dad wasn't able to do anything, a little old 4wd DB with a loader would do me for the hr a day in the winter I'd use it ha.

Farmer Pudsey

Timmaay wrote: »

Genuine question, you write off the full value of a tractor over 8years, then sell it and the person buying it gives you a cheque? Is that considered income and fully taxable in that year, or should you have only being writing off an amount to the actual loss in value of the tractor?

Could do with upgrading tractors here, and get a more compact 90hp 4wd with power shuttle and a loader for my dad, but again silly money to trade up for a new 2nd hand. I'd go all out and get a new 1 but hard to know if my dad will definitely get the use out of it. I've zero interest in driving tractors and would contract almost everything if my dad wasn't able to do anything, a little old 4wd DB with a loader would do me for the hr a day in the winter I'd use it ha.

''That is a really good question'' as the Americans say. You would really want to talk to an accountant. Strictly speaking the amount you recieve for the old tractor is income/profit and is libal for tax. Your accountant may deal with it differently. Lakhill might be worth a PM about same.

onyerbikepat

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You can write down any tractor it not just new ones that depreciate.

I know that. I was really looking at it from the point of view of a small part time farmer who is working full-time off farm.
Say he buys a €40K tractor, that's €5k that is written off over 8 years. If he is over €5k above the 40% income tax threshold, then that's a saving of 40% x €5k every year, or a total of €16k over the 8 years.

Lets say the tractor depreciates €12k, then that's an overall saving of €4k over the 8 years.
A well minded tractor with low hours would be easily traded in again after the 8 years and the cycle is repeated.

Reggie.

Timmaay wrote: »

Genuine question, you write off the full value of a tractor over 8years, then sell it and the person buying it gives you a cheque? Is that considered income and fully taxable in that year, or should you have only being writing off an amount to the actual loss in value of the tractor?

Could do with upgrading tractors here, and get a more compact 90hp 4wd with power shuttle and a loader for my dad, but again silly money to trade up for a new 2nd hand. I'd go all out and get a new 1 but hard to know if my dad will definitely get the use out of it. I've zero interest in driving tractors and would contract almost everything if my dad wasn't able to do anything, a little old 4wd DB with a loader would do me for the hr a day in the winter I'd use it ha.

You can't write it off completely. I think it's only 80% or something like that

Reggie.

Timmaay wrote: »

Genuine question, you write off the full value of a tractor over 8years, then sell it and the person buying it gives you a cheque? Is that considered income and fully taxable in that year, or should you have only being writing off an amount to the actual loss in value of the tractor?

Could do with upgrading tractors here, and get a more compact 90hp 4wd with power shuttle and a loader for my dad, but again silly money to trade up for a new 2nd hand. I'd go all out and get a new 1 but hard to know if my dad will definitely get the use out of it. I've zero interest in driving tractors and would contract almost everything if my dad wasn't able to do anything, a little old 4wd DB with a loader would do me for the hr a day in the winter I'd use it ha.

You can't write it off completely. I think it's only 80% or something like that