Ireland without the Famine

GalwayGuy2015

I want to resurrect this post!

I'm gonna look at this from a realistic approach.

In the 1840s our population was increasing at the rate similarly seen in England, France, Spain and Denmark. If we look at it realistically, without a food shortage it would have continued.

Had the Queen at the time (a middle aged Victoria) decided that all food surplus and corn/wheat made in Ireland was to be kept in Ireland, it would have saved the Irish from a disaster.

Had this occurred it would have meant the Irish would have had little reason to resent the English (in the modern era) anything else would be faded from memory by the 20th century.

The population would have been half that of England if there was sustained food. Following the general trend of countries in Western Europe that Ireland until the famine was part of.

With a large population Dublin would have become a very influential city. Imagine 12 -15 millon around 1880. Dublin always accounting for about 30 percent the nation would would have been second in the UK to London and in the top 4 largest in Europe. Cork likely along with Belfast would have doubled in such a period of growth as industry and economic prospects drew in many. It's likely people would still have migrated to England too and the USA. But instead of 50 percent of each generation leaving it would probably be more subtle at 10-20 percent.

By 1910 Ireland would be a big political player in the union. With the exception of a still largely rural mayo and parts of North Roscommon etc, (these areas lacking large towns or cities would not see growth and remain sustainment farming areas). East Ireland and South Ireland and the area around Belfast would become more industrial and unionist. Large populations, largely happy in the union, economies strong and better employment due to more infrastructure. By WW1 Ireland would be very much a contributing to the British forces. Over half the people who fought from Ireland we're in reality it for money not pride or patriotism. In this alternate stronger Ireland, people would be more proud of a large Ireland in the union, a influential Ireland that is far more wealthy. They would join in larger numbers and less for the cash, more for the pride.

The war would play out the same. Maybe over a little earlier but probably not. Irish casualties would be higher but the country would be still strong and very populated. England's population by 1940 was about 40 million so we shall say 18-20 million for Ireland by this point. The nation would not see a 1916 style revolt. If if did less would support it as the state was successful in the union and leaving is a risk too big.

WW2 would change Ireland completely.

Dublin, Belfast and Cork (possibly a large Galway too by now) would be key targets for the German Bombers.

Dublin growing fast would have become a more Victorian City than Georgian in the late 1800s and 1910s.

These buildings would have been left to rouble in our cities. Thousands would have died. Even more in the army.. Possibly a million if as many enlisted as in Britain.

With our cities burning like in England and our soldiers dying, project green May have been attempted by Hitler (an invasion of Ireland). However it probably would fail as the British airforce which was strong in the English Chanel would be based on Irish coasts too. Germany would lose but Ireland would be in pieces like South England by 1944/45.

Following the war a mass reconstruction of the Victorian cities would occur, the steel industry would grow. The war would have created mass industrialisation even in the west due to demand for weapons.

Ireland would emerge like the rest of the UK into a boom period from 1945-1970. Our population would stay static in or around 20 million.

Without censorship by the church a 1960s/1970s Ireland would be more like the 1990s In reality. The church would dwindle in power as the young are empowered by the "flower generation".

Booms and busts would occur up until the present. Ireland would be similar to now. A mix of Anglican and Gaelic culture but a great fondness of the union it helped Build etc. Think Scotland.

I doubt we'd have the euro now, the UK would still have the pound for now. We would probably have joined the EU as the UK, but a United British isles would be more eligible to leave the EU now than a split UK at the minute.

I say united as with Ireland at around 25-28 million thanks to growth and economic success it would compete in parliament against England. Add wales and Scotland and England has little dominance politically. Why would Ireland leave when it's on an equal playing field to England. Why would Scotland try when united with its Celtic partners it can push England back. The UK is now more diverse. No English bullying in modern politics. Elections could go anyway. Unlike today when England controls them by a large percentage.

Instead of republicanism and independence in Ireland or Scotland we would probably see a wanting for a federal system. It's possibly may already exist. The royals may be reduced to the degree seen in Spain or Denmark.

Overall we'd be more populated. We'd have avoided catholic censorship and stagnation. But we'd have suffered greatly in WW1 and WW2. Independence would never have taken off as the resentment to England wouldn't be as great. Home rule would have passed instead.

People in Ireland as in Scotland would say they are Irish but also British. But would resent the idea of being English.

We'd have played a big role in the mid east also, it's possible a 7/7 style attack would have happened here too. Dublin being the second largest in the UK and rivalling Berlin as the 4th/5th biggest in Europe.

So we'd be less peaceful state globally, but more unified in the UK. We'd be a big political player and have the respect of The US as they would for England, Germany and Demark etc. (we'd supply a lot to NATO).

To end lets not forget although many would have still went to the US, far less than in reality, Italians would have made up the largest ethnic group on the east coast of the US. So they'd be credited with building these cities and Ireland would be less present as an ethnic group in the US. About the same as French and Polish or English.

How one event changed Ireland is mad.

But with our nation being successful bow things turned out great in the end anyways.

You may have been better off starting a new thread, resurrecting old ones is usually frowned upon.

anncoates

The mawkish ballad industry would have been a shadow of itself

dd972

Deleted User wrote: »

You may have been better off starting a new thread, resurrecting old ones is usually frowned upon.

Unless ones started by dd1972

Robsweezie

we'd have much less of a chip on our shoulder

Maybe the question should be "what would the rest of the world be like if such large numbers of Irish didn't emigrate?" The US would most certainly have been different, the UK also but to a lesser extent.

ALiasEX

None of us in this thread would be alive.

Nor boards.ie :eek:

catallus

We wouldn't have to live with the fact that there is barely a crossroad in this country that doesn't mark a forgotten graveyard.

Fratton Fred

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Maybe the question should be "what would the rest of the world be like if such large numbers of Irish didn't emigrate?" The US would most certainly have been different, the UK also but to a lesser extent.

There is the rather attractive possibility that the scouse accent may never have been created.

minikin

We'd have become a sorry little self-hating back water that apes the worst of British & American culture, to the detriment of it's society and peoples... oh wait...

topper75

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Thomas Nast the German American essayist and cartoonist who is known worldwide for his depiction of the Santa Claus figure (fat guy with white beard and red suit which Coca Cola later adopted) also produced the Ape like characters in tattered suits swigging from bottles of whiskey, An American portrayal of the Irish immigrants, his work was also used by Punch magazine in Britain.

He referred to the Irish as the white Negroes.

Saw one House of Pain video, and thought he knew it all.

ScumLord

GalwayGuy2015 wrote: »

Had this occurred it would have meant the Irish would have had little reason to resent the English (in the modern era) anything else would be faded from memory by the 20th century.

I doubt that, the famine was just one incident in a host of other incidents going back hundreds of years. The fact is Catholic Ireland would always be at odds with the UK. With nationalism such a popular movement at the time Ireland would still have people that wanted to make Ireland independant.

With a large population Dublin would have become a very influential city.

I don't see that happening either. The only reason Ireland has had a big population is because it was poor and Catholic. If the Dublin population sored it would simply become a big slum. There was little industry in Ireland beyond farming so there would still be the problem of people having no work, so they'd still leave. Especially with the powerhouse of the American economy pulling people into the country.

The famine caused the population to plummet. That was probably a good thing in the long run. We were more than likely over populated, I can't imagine what Ireland would have been like with such a large population. Reducing that population made life easier for those left over, if the mass exodus of people out of Ireland never happened it's likely we would be some unknown backwater. We wouldn't have built up the good will throughout the world that supported Irish desires at home.

Boom_Bap

I'm bringing new posts from a zombie thread here. Old thread is here -> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056977963

Arsemageddon

Robsweezie wrote: »

we'd have much less of a chip on our shoulder

But we couldn't have chips because the Brits stole all our spuds.

bnt

The way the population was soaring in the first half of the 1800s, in an agrarian country, it was only a matter of time before something went horribly wrong. If not the famine, then one of the other Horsemen of the Apocalypse would have dropped a load on the Emerald Isle sooner or later.

cloud493

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There is the rather attractive possibility that the scouse accent may never have been created.

Kermit.de.frog

Interesting question. Given our tendency to breed like rabbits I guess Dublin would be Tokyo-on-Liffey at this stage in terms of size whilst Cork would be a poor man's Detroit.

Limerick would probably be the size of Dublin except with more Ballymun rather than D4. Galway would be a suburb of Limerick.

Paramite Pie

Honestly I think the problems that culminated in the famine can be traced back to the Flight Of The Earls. To build industry, you need investment - and for investment you need a lot of wealthy people to do so. Governments of that era didn't provide capital like they do now, the Government tended to keep their meddling to the minimum, Laissez Faire Economics they called it.

Compared to the England, there were too few Nobility/Landowners in proportion to the lower classes Ireland. The Ascendency were too spread out and were often absentees, with little incentive to invest here. Our Agrarian Economy & infrastructure was developed to export, we were a 'food basket' for the Empire first & foremost. We needed Patrons, who developed their towns and cities, developed and funded the arts. Otherwise cities have no real culture or soul, just sprawl.

Catholic farmers didn't have the same land/tenent rights as those in the UK, as land HAD to be divided to each male heir unlike Protestant farms which could be inhereted entirely by the one heir. This is why Irish farms are often scattered in small strips and land got smaller and smaller for the Catholics. So assuming the people didn't starve and population grew, farms would've gotten even smaller and that had to bottleneck eventually!! Emigration would've still been high.

The Gaelic Revival seems to coincide with relaxation of restrictions on tennants, increases on Catholic's rights to own property and a return of many of the Ascendency to Ireland (many left to take their seats in Westminster in 1801). If the O'Neils and Co had never fled, and somehow made a deal with Britain, Ireland would have kept it's then infamous Cultural institutions like the Bardic Schools which collapsed without patrons. We'd be culturally richer as well as economically do the stronger trading links with Spain/France as well as the UK.

mikemac1

More wealth and prosperity lol, come on OP

The worse slums in Europe existed here around 1900 and many of the slumlords were on Dublin corporation

We never needed the Brits to screw us over as we're capable of doing that to each other

bb1234567

God imagine 25 million people on our island! place would be packed

bb1234567

bb1234567 wrote: »

God imagine 25 million people on our island! place would be packed

It would still be less dense than the Netherlands.

WesternZulu

bb1234567 wrote:

God imagine 25 million people on our island! place would be packed

Leitrim might even have two sets of traffic lights!

wretcheddomain

The acceleration in Irish emigration, particularly from women, came due to fundamental changes in traditional family structures rather than as a direct impact of the Great Famine - that is to say, while the Great Famine was a punctuating event, emigration continued apace prior to the Famine and after it, while the rate of this emigration was catalysed by changing family structures.

NIMAN

Thing I always think about us as a nation, is that 150yrs ago we couldn't fed ourselves and were starving to death.

Move on 100yrs to say 1950 and many rural parts of the country looked like they were still in the 19th century in terms of facilities, development, infrastructure etc.

Move on another 50 or so and we had the Celtic Tiger, when the entire nation was rich beyond its wildest dreams.

I always think of this, and wonder why those Third World countries never seem to be able to do anything like this? Why are they making no progress at all despite hundreds of millions being thrown at them? Why are they continually starving?

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

Thing I always think about us as a nation, is that 150yrs ago we couldn't fed ourselves and were starving to death.

Move on 100yrs to say 1950 and many rural parts of the country looked like they were still in the 19th century in terms of facilities, development, infrastructure etc.

Move on another 50 or so and we had the Celtic Tiger, when the entire nation was rich beyond its wildest dreams.

I always think of this, and wonder why those Third World countries never seem to be able to do anything like this? Why are they making no progress at all despite hundreds of millions being thrown at them? Why are they continually starving?

Short answer it that the Irish are far (very far) less corrupt than many of the people in those 3rd world countries, plus they don't have the favourable tax regime that attracts foreign companies here.

fatknacker

Hallowe'en and Paddy's day wouldn't have been exported to the States and fed back globally and the phrase " top of the mornin' to ye" would be non existent.

porsche959

NIMAN wrote: »

Thing I always think about us as a nation, is that 150yrs ago we couldn't fed ourselves and were starving to death.

Move on 100yrs to say 1950 and many rural parts of the country looked like they were still in the 19th century in terms of facilities, development, infrastructure etc.

Move on another 50 or so and we had the Celtic Tiger, when the entire nation was rich beyond its wildest dreams.

I always think of this, and wonder why those Third World countries never seem to be able to do anything like this? Why are they making no progress at all despite hundreds of millions being thrown at them? Why are they continually starving?

Something to help you in your researches:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy#Criticism

ScumLord

NIMAN wrote: »

I always think of this, and wonder why those Third World countries never seem to be able to do anything like this? Why are they making no progress at all despite hundreds of millions being thrown at them? Why are they continually starving?

They are slowly improving. They have a lot of problems though, large countries, isolated populations, poor infrastructure, external forces bribing corrupt politicians for resources.

The third world countries are improving though, they're just late to the party.

porsche959

ScumLord wrote: »

They are slowly improving. They have a lot of problems though, large countries, isolated populations, poor infrastructure, external forces bribing corrupt politicians for resources.

The third world countries are improving though, they're just late to the party.

All important factors, but also there is the issue of developing countries being effectively discriminated against by policies such as CAP and similar, by virtue of CAP and similar policies operated by US and Canada essentially subsidising Western famers and making it more difficult for farmers from developing countries to get a fair price. Also, NIMAN is perhaps forgetting to consider the huge financial transfers from the EU core to countries that were considered on the periphery of the EU that took place in 1970's-1990's.

porsche959

Deleted User wrote: »

Short answer it that the Irish are far (very far) less corrupt than many of the people in those 3rd world countries, plus they don't have the favourable tax regime that attracts foreign companies here.

ROTFLMAO.

circadian

I made it as far as Dublin having 12-15 million by 1880.

London has around that now but nothing like it in 1880.

bnt

Deleted User wrote: »

Short answer it that the Irish are far (very far) less corrupt than many of the people in those 3rd world countries, plus they don't have the favourable tax regime that attracts foreign companies here.

Well, real corruption requires some smarts, and around the time of the Famine the smart people were emigrating to the USA, particularly New York. The result was the Tammany Hall machine, which supported Irish immigrants after arrival, helped them become naturalized ... and used them for political power, money laundering, and muscle. (The film Gangs of New York only hints at how big the Tweed Machine would become.)

jester77

Cork would be premier league holders and playing in CL quarter finals against Porto tonight.