Motorhome out of storage today :)

Macspower

Just took my MH out of storage today. It's been 2 years since it was in action. A quick check around sees I need a new leisure battery and tyres have hairline cracks in the sidewalls. there is some mould on the front seats and steering and dash but apart from a few cobwebs all seems good..

Anyway few questions. I need a new leisure battery. Was considering this one from halfords as they are close.. opinions?

http://www.halfords.ie/motoring-travel/camping-caravanning/caravanning/halfords-leisure-battery-115-ah

Although thread looks good I'm going to change the tyres. they are 215/75 R16 C. Anywhere for good tyre deals in Kildare/Dublin/Leinster area?

Also need to get it insured and tax and doe... I was using Dolmen for the insurance.. are they still good?

thanks for help

Haha, first things I thought when I saw the title was tyres and batteries. Nah, wouldn't go near Halfords for a battery that one has a CCA rating..it's a starter battery with a caravan sticker on it.

Macspower

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Haha, first things I thought when I saw the title was tyres and batteries. Nah, wouldn't go near Halfords for a battery that one has a CCA rating..it's a starter battery with a caravan sticker on it.

I'm replacing 3 Leisure Batteries with 1 under the passenger seat for now until I get funds together to replace the others.. I've disconnected the others for now.
Any recommendations? What am I looking for in a battery? rating etc..

100Ah Ask Niloc how his are working out.

200Ah+ (2x T105)

Prices aren't listed on that website, here's the quote I got off them last year.
T105= €165.00 incl VAT each
T125= €220.00 incl VAT each
T145= €240.00 incl VAT each

Much cheaper in the UK

Macspower

Macspower wrote: »

Any recommendations? What am I looking for in a battery? rating etc..

• Weight. ~25kg per 100Ah (@12V)
• Datasheet with charge recommendations and cycle life versus DOD (not that it's necessary but demonstrates a level of product development you won't find off the likes of Numax.)
• Genuine deep cycle.
• Specific gravity 1.275 per cell.
• Open lead acid if you don't mind the hydrogen and maintenance, want the performance and have a charger that'll go to 14.7V.
• Sealed if charger max. setting 14.4v and you have a lot of hook-up time, down-time and low maintenance.
• Anything with a CCA, MCA, or starting current rating is not a deep cycle it's a starter battery.
• Life is a lot easier if all batteries on board are the same type..ie. all sealed or all open.

AGM & GEL aren't worth it imho you're just paying twice the price for a fancy electrolyte that is very finicky about it's charge requirements.

corkbuoy

Bosch/Varta recommended here http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

Aidan_M_M

I only use Numax, and they just seeM to work perfectly

A & N Caravan

I'm still sitting on the fence on the start/stop battery technology.

Biggest problem I have with Bosch batteries is they haven't published any of their lab results. I've no idea where that article got it's figures "4 times the deep cycling capability" "greater charge acceptance" etc. I'd love to see them.

I've even emailed Bosch asking for them and there was no reply.
No cycle life versus DOD, no charge efficiency exponent, only rated to c20, just slick brochures with vague claims and a high pricepoint. Pretty bloomin hard find a charge setpoint for them too. (14.4v)

So many things wrong with that article, where to begin...


Bosch's own documentation contradicts itself.

A & N Caravan wrote:

We have found the Bosch S5 has a resting voltage of around 13.1v

As have I on many a generic battery.

Bosch wrote:

A battery in a good state of charge will usually
have a load-free voltage >12.6V.

A & N Caravan wrote:

The same web page also documents the technology that contains the gas normally given off ensuring it remains inside the battery, making it 100% maintenance free and Gas tight.

Bosch wrote:

Always charge the battery according to the amount of charge needed. Prolonged charging times, especially with a constant current, could cause the battery to become overcharged, causing an unnecessary loss of water in the process.

A & N Caravan wrote:

However, if you expect any battery to last 5 years in a Motorhome environment, which is probably one of the toughest there is for a battery,

Jaysus get over yerself. Battery used 6 months a year, 3 days a week 5 years...sound familiar, or maybe high?
That's 130 cycles...what's the average battery rated to? ~ 1000 cycles

A & N Caravan wrote:

We have not seen a Battery tester yet that measures how hard a battery is to charge....

Charged power - discharged power!
Ah counter.

A & N Caravan wrote:

...and the load it places on a charger unit.

Ammeter!



3000W inverter!!! I know people with 2 tons of lead and the same size inverter. Talk about using a hammer to turn a screw. If a 90Ah S5 powered that thing at full load how long would it last to 50% DOD?
5 minutes!

A & N Caravan wrote:

Headlights, etc may all continue to operate discharging the battery considerably before the engine restarts. The car Alternator then applies a big charge into the battery

Bosch wrote:

the initial current applied to the battery should be limited to 25A

Charles Sterling never claimed the B2B charger was good for batteries, in fact he advises using cheap flooded batteries that can take the abuse. The B2B charger does what it does very well and has selectable (and programmable) tenacity; one doesn't buy a V12 when one wants a Nissan Micra.


They probably are great hybrids.

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

I only use Numax, and they just seem to work perfectly

Have you ever seen a data-sheet off them for a battery or a charger though?

Aidan_M_M

No, but I fit about 50 a year and send back maybe 1 of those on warranty. To all ages and make of MH. Couldn't care less what the numbers say, I'm just going on experience and results.

Well that certainly counts.

From my point of view if I have two battery candidates to choose from and one has a R&D department that tells you what you are buying and the other says suitable for vans I'd go for the former.

EDIT: Sorry Aidan it was a bad example, if I said Exide instead would you agree? Point is how can you tell the difference between Exide, Numax and brand X if you're not a mechanic.

Aidan_M_M

Because I buy from a reputable Irish supplier. Every one used tell me Elecsol were the doggies danglies, and I nearly lost a couple of customers over alleged drains and charging problems on campers they'd fitted these magic, and "better value" batteries from the UK.... Amazing the way the problems disappeared when I convinced them to try one of my ones.
We had woeful problems with Exide, but they were dry batteries which alternators seem to fry.

Nekarsulm

Hi guys, our MH has one of these fitted. We only bought it last year so know nothing about its age etc, but it doesn't seem to keep two interior lights going for more than 90 minutes. 12v filament bulbs.
Is it junk, worn out, or just not suitable?
Its in a Ducato Auto-Roller -5

Cheers, Nec.,

http://www.jrleisure.co.uk/diamond-xl85-leisure-battery/p373

Nekarsulm

Elecsol are the reason I have such a problem with schlick brochures and unsubstantiated claims from battery& charger manufacturers.

Nekarsulm wrote: »

...it doesn't seem to keep two interior lights going for more than 90 minutes. 12v filament bulbs.
Is it junk, worn out, or just not suitable?

My batteries last 3 weeks.

Nekarsulm

Answers that question anyway!

spaceHopper

For what it's worth I've just replaced my 4 or 5 year old halford's 70AH leisure battery with a new one from them. Been having problems with the engine battery charging and when the guy tested the alternator and both batteries it looked like the leisure battery is dead, considering the abuse I've given it I'm not surprised. They give a two year warranty and will stand over it because they were happy to replace my engine battery (also from halfords) if I wanted. You could spend hours checking prices on line, waiting for it to arrive or just go and buy one, at that price I'd be on my way to the shop. If it fails with in two years just bring it back.

moodrater

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Hi guys, our MH has one of these fitted. We only bought it last year so know nothing about its age etc, but it doesn't seem to keep two interior lights going for more than 90 minutes. 12v filament bulbs.
Is it junk, worn out, or just not suitable?
Its in a Ducato Auto-Roller -5

Cheers, Nec.,

http://www.jrleisure.co.uk/diamond-xl85-leisure-battery/p373

Those should only be 10w/20w each so you should easily get 12 hours without taxing your battery.

Usual explanations:
Fridge on 12V or other load inadvertently left on.
Battery was left flat over the winter and is now scrap.
Battery not being charged long enough on hookup (Driving around for a couple of hourse isn't enough to charge the battery).
Charger / control panel issue.

Also despite some people selling it as 85Ah the capacity @20h is 60ah which is pretty weedy. I would guess its a relabelled starter battery.

Nekarsulm

The last owner (or perhaps the one before that) had added a Wareco Perfect Power PP300 inverter to the leisure battery. Seldom use it, perhaps it causes a drain of some sort also?

http://www.best-buys.co.uk/waeco-perfect-power-pp300-inverter-300w.html

That's a tidy enough MSW, if use that to run your fridge instead of 12V you might save yer alternator some work on a longhaul.

200mA idle = 3W if you leave it turned on and doing nothing; so 5 days to 50% DOD.
It it's off then it shouldn't use anything.

wrote:

• Continuous power: 300W (30 mins)

Nekarsulm

OK, thanks, Sir L. Probably no need to disconnect it so.
Will look for a new battery.
There is a guy up our way used to sell Schnapp (?) Batteries, made in Israel, and seriously heavy, we used them in diggers etc. Must drop up to him.

Nekarsulm

Nekarsulm wrote: »

no need to disconnect it so.

I find if it's on croc clips there's a bittov krudd develops from the electrolysis between dissimilar metals on the terminals.
Easy enough clean with a wire wheel. That's the only issue I find...should be hard wired anyways imho.

Nekarsulm wrote: »

There is a guy up our way used to sell Schnapp (?) Batteries, made in Israel, and seriously heavy, we used them in diggers etc.

Silver calcium like them Bosch's. Electric mini-diggers or big diesels?

Nekarsulm

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I find if it's on croc clips there's a bittov krudd develops from the electrolysis between dissimilar metals on the terminals.
Easy enough clean with a wire wheel. That's the only issue I find...should be hard wired anyways imho.



Silver calcium like them Bosch's. Electric mini-diggers or big diesels?

663 or 664 type if I remember. I think they were a little taller than most .
Used in a 3cx etc. Must have been 30 or 40 kg.

He made a point of the fact that the Israeli Army used nothing else in their vehicles.....or so he said.

The guy selling them also builds batteries into new, old stock rubber cases, can put a 12 volt internals into one of the old cases with the bars across the top. Sells a lot to the vintage tractor guys.

Moomat

Macspower wrote: »

Anyway few questions. I need a new leisure battery. Was considering this one from halfords as they are close.. opinions?

http://www.halfords.ie/motoring-travel/camping-caravanning/caravanning/halfords-leisure-battery-115-ah

I think they're a pretty good battery for the money. The one in the image is this one with different stickers I believe http://www.yuasa.co.uk/batteries/leisure-marine-garden/leisure-batteries/l35-115-l35-115.html

Make sure if you buy one, that you get the Yuasa. I got one last year, got it home and noticed it wasn't the battery on the picture or didn't match the weight. Halfords claimed 29kg at the time, weighed it at home and it was weighing in around 21kg!!
There were a few other cosmetic differences too. Got on to customer services, bit of back and forth, they expained that they had some supply issues and had dispatched replacment batteries to stores, claimed they would perform the same regardless of weight. I didn't think this was acceptable and ended up getting to hold onto the inferior battery and have a brand new halfords branded Yuasa shipped out to me.
Fairly decent customer service in the end, just be aware!

moodrater

Moomat wrote: »

I think they're a pretty good battery for the money. The one in the image is this one with different stickers I believe http://www.yuasa.co.uk/batteries/leisure-marine-garden/leisure-batteries/l35-115-l35-115.html

Make sure if you buy one, that you get the Yuasa. I got one last year, got it home and noticed it wasn't the battery on the picture or didn't match the weight. Halfords claimed 29kg at the time, weighed it at home and it was weighing in around 21kg!!
There were a few other cosmetic differences too. Got on to customer services, bit of back and forth, they expained that they had some supply issues and had dispatched replacment batteries to stores, claimed they would perform the same regardless of weight. I didn't think this was acceptable and ended up getting to hold onto the inferior battery and have a brand new halfords branded Yuasa shipped out to me.
Fairly decent customer service in the end, just be aware!

The old halfords 29kg leisure battery was Varta I think with a low cca rating suggesting thick plates. The yuasa one now is 25.4kg 750cca interestingly an old catalogue here suggests the same model number was 29.1kg in 2009 and the marine 100a battery has shed 3.2kg in the same period .. the amazing shrinking battery trick.

Yuasa Warranty Exclusions:

"Caravans"
"Deep cycling"

Yuasa LeisureLine series:
Typically each Leisureline battery will cycle to 50% charge and back, 120 times.

...not a good sign. Their UPS batteries are far more respectable.

I've been having evil thoughts. Water yer batteries before you scrap them or if yer making a warranty claim spread the electrolyte from 1 cell into 5 and fill the empty cell with de-ionised..hey presto manufacturing fault...dead cell!

spaceHopper

The guys in the shop won't care they will just test the battery and if it's any way weak they will replace it.

moodrater

spaceHopper wrote: »

The guys in the shop won't care they will just test the battery and if it's any way weak they will replace it.

Maybe in big chains thats definitely not the way around here if in doubt the give you a loaner and wait for the supplier to confirm manufacturing defect.

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I've been having evil thoughts. Water yer batteries before you scrap them or if yer making a warranty claim spread the electrolyte from 1 cell into 5 and fill the empty cell with de-ionised..hey presto manufacturing fault...dead cell!

Mefistofelino

Apologies for piggy-backing on this but I'm in a similar (and possibly slight more complicated) position.

My motorhome is built on a 2008 Ford transit chassis. It has been fitted from new with three batteries: two Ford silver calcium 60Ah in the driver seat base and an additional "Freedom" brand 60Ah unit in the passenger seat base.

The Ford batteries appear to be wired in parallel, though I believe that there is some Ford standard trickery that uses one battery for cranking and the other to provide accessory / leisure power.

The engine refused to turn over after the winter so cue much swearing and dismantling of cab seats & swivels to get at the batteries. One of the Ford batteries is showing ~12.4V and the other two are at ~ 3 - 4V, so I reckon 2 - if not 3 - batteries need replacing.

Can anyone advise if the batteries must be replaced with silver calcium items? I believe that the silver calciums are recharged at 14.8V and this may reduce the lifespan of the replacements.

I've been offered a Banner AGM battery at a not-unreasonable price. While I appreciate that there's not much love for them around here, the sheer buggeration factor of taking out the seats to check / maintain the battery makes a lower maintenance unit attractive. However, I think that the higher silver calcium charging voltage may cause problems for an AGM.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

Mefistofelino

Mefistofelino wrote: »

Apologies for piggy-backing on this

I just feel sorry for the tyres. :P

Macspower wrote: »

Anywhere for good tyre deals in Kildare/Dublin/Leinster area?

Mefistofelino wrote: »

The Ford batteries appear to be wired in parallel, though I believe that there is some Ford standard trickery that uses one battery for cranking and the other to provide accessory / leisure power.

Engine starter battery (starter battery), auto-electrics battery (starter/deep cycle d'nay matter) and leisure battery (deep cycle).

Mefistofelino wrote: »

The engine refused to turn over after the winter so cue much swearing and dismantling of cab seats & swivels to get at the batteries. One of the Ford batteries is showing ~12.4V and the other two are at ~ 3 - 4V, so I reckon 2 - if not 3 - batteries need replacing.

2 need replacing, the one @ 12.4v might last another year.

Mefistofelino wrote: »

Can anyone advise if the batteries must be replaced with silver calcium items? I believe that the silver calciums are recharged at 14.8V and this may reduce the lifespan of the replacements.

If it's a sealed silver calcium 14.4v usually.
Not necessary go silver calcium unless you want to.
14.8V is my favourite charge threshold (for solar PV and camper alternators...14.7V temp compensated for mains chargers). It doesn't reduce the lifespan of a battery at all, quite the opposite. It performs a weak equalisation, charges quickly and more thoroughly.
Sitting idle discharging, undercharging and failing to monitor the electrolyte levels is what reduces lifespan amongst other reasons.
14.8V will gas a little, so maybe it's worth venting a battery compartment, you do have to keep an eye on the water levels. Having said that I've watered my deep cycles twice in the last year what were set to charge at 14.8V and they're overfilled now so once would have been enough.

Best check your alternator charging voltages at the battery post to verify the charging voltages. I seriously doubt you're getting 14.8V at all 3 batteries. Least then you know what you are dealing with.
You'll need serviceable batteries for this test though, those dodos will give you low readings and might be dangerous to charge.

Mefistofelino wrote: »

I've been offered a Banner AGM battery at a not-unreasonable price. While I appreciate that there's not much love for them around here,

tehehe I think it's just me that slates them...around here. If they were less than the price of a wet cell I'd consider it. They're great for aeroplanes when you want to loop-de-loop can't see a good reason to spend that kindov wedge on camper kit.

I tend to agree with Sterling.

Mefistofelino wrote: »

the sheer buggeration factor of taking out the seats to check / maintain the battery makes a lower maintenance unit attractive.

haha I know the feeling, I only discovered by accident that I could remove the bum cushion from the passenger side the day I swapped the seat for a single you couldn't. :rolleyes:

Low maintenance batteries doesn't mean a whole lot. It's just a pressure valve that encourages recombination. They won't last as long as maintained and if you were to charge an open cell at maintenance free charge set-points it'd do the exact same job.

Mefistofelino wrote: »

However, I think that the higher silver calcium charging voltage may cause problems for an AGM.

Most of them have a charge termination voltage of 14.7v temp. compensated. Banner say 14.8V. Best check your manufacturer guidelines.

Your mains charger ought to have a specific AGM setting though, I believe they have different bulk and absorption requirements to traditional wet cells.
Gels are much more sensitive.

Oops
Had a look about, wondering if there was a guide to upgrading a dual engine battery setup to a single battery. Turns out the ford charging system does require silver calcium batts be fitted as replacement for the originals.

wrote:

The system can produce up to 18 volts

Mefistofelino

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Oops
Had a look about, wondering if their was a guide to upgrading a dual engine battery setup to a single battery. Turns out the ford charging system does require silver calcium batts be fitted as replacement for the originals.

Oh well. The peculiar thing is that the factory-fit charger in the motorhome has a maximum output of 14.7V, according to the nameplate.

Mefistofelino

Mefistofelino wrote: »

Oh well. The peculiar thing is that the factory-fit charger in the motorhome has a maximum output of 14.7V, according to the nameplate.

Nothing wrong with that, has it got selectable charge profiles?
Are the engine batteries linked to the habitation charger and vice versa? Running different chemistry batteries is a nuisance, lots of lekytronic boxes needed to make things right.

Seems a bit redundant to me to have a spare engine battery and a habitation battery. I'd be tempted run on one much larger silver calcium for the engine and bridge the engine split charge relay terminals.

According to Valeo and ford forums your alternator can crank out 18V if it's sufficiently cold and low on charge.

These silver calcium batteries are quite hard to pin down. Seems they keep contradicting their own rules.

moodrater

Calcium is fine I had a yuasa professional calcium in mine for years and its still in fine fettle: http://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/silver-calcium-batteries/ I never measured more than 16.2v and that was at almost -15C with a ****e dead battery. To get 18V you'd need a cold start, artic conditions and a dead battery and even then I'm sceptical. There are issues with high voltage spiking with jump starting as the smart charge system takes time to respond to the sudden change in load/voltage.

Alphaline do Calcium/Tin range 14.4v-16v
Korean alternative to Silver.
Same concept:
More CCA, less gassing, less cycles, tin/silver alloy to prevent the calcium induced advanced grid corrosion.

Banner claim their Calcium/Calcium are suitable for transits too and 16V to reverse stratification

Mefistofelino

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Nothing wrong with that, has it got selectable charge profiles?

Yes - via a set of well-hidden dip switches. Currently set to Lead-Acid re-charge

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Are the engine batteries linked to the habitation charger and vice versa? Running different chemistry batteries is a nuisance, lots of lekytronic boxes needed to make things right.

I had always assumed that the habitation charger would top up the engine batteries but now I'm not so sure. The owners manual (Laika) is not at all clear on this and doing a bit of Googling yesterday indicated that it is quite common for the mains charger on a Laika to only charge the habitation battery, leaving the starter battery fed only from the alternator. I'm going to have to do a bit more investigating once I can move the motorhome to a mains supply


Thanks for all the help so far.

moodrater

moodrater wrote: »

I never measured more than 16.2v and that was at almost -15C

Under Trojan nuthin' fancy stalworth lead antimony temp. compensating guidelines; +5mV per cell per °C below 25°C:

14.8V baseline + 0.005V * 6cells * 40°C = 16V @ -15°C

Nekarsulm

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Under Trojan nuthin' fancy stalworth lead antimony temp. compensating guidelines; +5mV per cell per °C below 25°C:

14.8V baseline + 0.005V * 6cells * 40°C = 16V @ -15°C

Bloody hell, I understood exactly nothing in your post.
Gonna have to dig out my old Leaving Cert Physics textbook. (circa 1985!)

Nekarsulm

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Bloody hell, I understood exactly nothing in your post.

Basically the Ford smart charging system (from my basic understanding) is just an alternator with temperature compensation and suitable for open lead acids if you are prepared to water them. They're designed for sealed silver calcium because they gas so little they can still warranty them.
At the end of the day you get more cycles (~500) from a traditional motive battery treated correctly than a patented bosch/varta jobbie in a deep cycle application.

Starting motors, motormovers, cold performance, overspec-ed loads, low maintenance, long shelf life and durability against heavy loading may translate Calcium batteries to the motorhome market major as a longer lasting battery however for kWh returned per € invested as well as cycle life the old school open lead acid semi-traction deep cycle motive batteries are still King. Clear as mud?

Nekarsulm

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Basically the Ford smart charging system (from my basic understanding) is just an alternator with temperature compensation and suitable for open lead acids if you are prepared to water them. They're designed for sealed silver calcium because they gas so little they can still warranty them.
At the end of the day you get more cycles (~500) from a traditional motive battery treated correctly than a patented bosch/varta jobbie.

Starting motors, motormovers, cold performance, overspec-ed loads, low maintenance, long shelf life and durability against heavy loading may translate Calcium batteries to the motorhome market major as a longer lasting battery however for kWh returned per € invested as well as cycle life the old school open lead acid semi-traction deep cycle motive batteries are still King. Clear as mud?

I suppose batteries from a golf cart would be out of the question, so?

Sir Liamalot

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Under Trojan nuthin' fancy stalworth lead antimony temp. compensating guidelines; +5mV per cell per °C below 25°C:

14.8V baseline + 0.005V * 6cells * 40°C = 16V @ -15°C

Trojan Battery Company (makers of true deep cycle batteries with an R&D department) advise higher charging rates in colder weather to offset the increased battery internal resistance.
This translates to +1.2V in -15°C, same as what the ford smart battery charging system produces according to M.
So I speculate it's not an issue with standard lead antimony grids just sealed unmaintainable batteries.

Nekarsulm

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I suppose batteries from a golf cart would be out of the question, so?

They won't last starting engines, but they'll happily sit the other side of a split charger.

Temperature compensation applies to all batteries, just not all companies advocate it. I reckon a maintained OLA starter battery engine side could do as good a job in a Ford (but not in a start/stop system).

The Calcium batteries do give better cycling life than starter batteries, less than the motive ones so they are hybrids.

Skip to 11mins for the scoop.

Macspower

thanks for the advice guys.

Just back after a week with teh van. Great to have her back on the road,

I got an energy bull 100Ah model in the end as its what my local place had in stock.

Anyway i always had 3 batteries in the van but I've disconnected the other 2 and now just have the 1 under the passenger seat.
It seems to be charging perfectly and when running off the alternator the needle goes up ot the right a little and after a while works it's way back to the middle and from memory that is all good.

Anyway.. Few resonably cold nights last week and I set the trauma heater control to 18degrees and it purred away as normal and was snug as a bug but I would wake up at around 5 am with the clicking coming from the heater and it cutting in and out. The red light would be flashing on the heater control and the low battery light was on the control panel. A start of the van would sort the problem.

But I'm wondering if the battery is ok or have I a problem with the charging system or perhaps thats as long as it lasts??

I didn't have access to hookup but with the previous setup of 3 batteries I never had a problem. BTW my van is normally driven during the day so has a chance of full charge up from altenator.

Don't rely on an alternator to charge a deep cycled battery it's just a contributor.
Battery monitor?

Aidan_M_M

you should get 2-3 nights out of a 100ah battery . Sounds like you're not getting a proper charge into it.

This isn't a promo for a B2B charger (even though they are good). It's intended as a point of reference on the limitations of standard fitment.