Dropping out of secondary school

IDencI

I'm currently considering dropping out of school. I am just completely unmotivated and know i'm not going to do anything for the next year and a bit. I don't want to waste my time or anyone else's time.
I am aware of the implications of having no leaving cert.
Is it realistic of me to want to start an online business? I come from a programming background and my only motivation in life is programming. I have ideas for project that i would love to pursue. My parents aren't happy about me wanting to drop out and i can see why. I am wondering if it is worth doing up a business plan and showing it to parents as they believe I will do nothing if i drop out. That is not my plan. I hope to start my own business and make something of my life. Have you or anyone you know dropped out? Do you/they regret it?

MitchKoobski

Plan everything and work on it in your spare time but finish the Leaving Certificate.

There's no point trying to prove to anyone that you can dedicate yourself to a business project or starting an online business when you can't even dedicate yourself to finish the Leaving Certificate.

Penny Tration

Where will you get funding to start your business?

Who will design the website?

What happens if it fails, as many start ups do?

Unless you have realistic, workable answers to these questions, stay in school.

Ave Sodalis

Have you considered finishing your LC and then starting your business? It's a relatively short amount of time until you're finished anyway so you may just finish it. I'd also recommend finishing it and applying for a course in programming. Not just to learn stuff you may not have learned already, but to learn the life skills that come along with college. You'll also have a plan B and much more employable to other companies if your business idea falls through.

And to answer your question, anyone I know who has dropped out has regretted it.

iusedtoknow

I'll be blunt. I work in San Francisco, the land of the startups and people that have good ideas. I know a lot of people that are involved in the startup industry here. They are smart, they are educated and they are savvy.

I seriously, cannot think of one person I've met in the programming/business world that at least did not finish high school or have some university behind them. They are smart people, that know how to interact with smart people. While education does not equal smart, it does equal an achievement. It also allow you to talk at a certain level with other coders, business minds etc

I hire programmers/coders all the time - i currently have 22 working on projects that I manage between here in SF and in Czech Republic. Only 2 do not have a college education, and they are both in the process of getting it.

The other issue is that 90% of start ups fail to turn profit or even fail to see the light of day. If you fail, you need something to fall back on - sitting your leaving cert at 22 to get into college is going to be as little fun as it will be in a year.

IDencI

I see what everyone is saying but I honestly don't see the point in waiting a year and coming out the other end with a crap leaving cert.

iusedtoknow

IDencI wrote: »

I see what everyone is saying but I honestly don't see the point in waiting a year and coming out the other end with a crap leaving cert.

Well i'll tell you another story of 2 people I know that dropped out before their leaving cert

One couldn't get a job in dixons in Dublin due to no LC, the other couldn't get a job - period.

And one more question - when you talk about programming, I assume you mean honest to god coding, and not hacking. You need very good math skills - not in a algebraic/calculus (though these are important on their own) sort of way, but more in a being trained to think in algorithms, understand the principles of encryption and privacy....while you can pick things like this up a long the way, a little bit of training can go a long long way.

seventeen sheep

No recruiter I know would even look at a CV if someone didn't have a leaving cert. You may think you're good at programming, but - no offence - you've never done it at a professional level, where you'd be competing against countless people who are as skilled as you BUT with the advantage of a qualification behind them, along with several years training and practical experience. I'm sorry but you're putting yourself at a disadvantage here, and completely unnecessarily. I'd say do your LC, at the very least.

Gregor Samsa

There's a few people in this world, like Richard Branson, who dropped out of school and became incredibly successful. There's a lot more who dropped out and achieved absolutely nothing.

Where you personally would end up between these two positions is anyone's guess. But it is pretty certain that you'll have a better chance of success, and options, in life with your Leaving Cert. There was a time that it wasn't unusual for someone not to have the LC. It will certainly raise eyebrows and concerns with future employers in this day and age. You're interested in Programming. I manage a Development team in a multinational, and our company will not take anyone on that doesn't have a relevant degree - the Leaving on it's own doesn't even count for anything in employment any more, but you do usually need it to get into college (there are other ways, of course, but they're harder). You can say it's unfair, and that personal merit should trump the "piece of paper" but that's just the way it is, and it's not changing anytime soon. There's so many people looking for jobs that the bar to even have your CV read is getting higher.

Wanting to start your own company is an admirable goal, but without knowing your business plan, there's no way to know if it even has a chance of success. There's nothing about starting your own business that couldn't be done after your LC, and at least it will give you options later if the business doesn't work out.

Certainly get working on that business plan. But keep your options open. You're young, and it's natural to focus on the here and now, but life is long, and there's no telling what direction it will take you.

From personal experience, the only person I know who dropped out of school regretted it, and suffered badly from it, but his circumstances are probably nothing like yours.

LegacyUser

A crap LC is better than no LC. Or just apply yourself to your studies and get an ok one. Maybe you could consider looking into other school-leavers qualifactions like international A-levels or IB. With A levels for example you'd only have to do three subjects and there's a much broader choice. However, depending on where you live and finance etc, this may not at all be realistic.

If you're determined to drop out then nobody's going to convince you otherwise, but for what it's worth I know several people who did it. They bummed around for a few year or two and then went back to school/adult education.

Gregor Samsa

IDencI wrote: »

I see what everyone is saying but I honestly don't see the point in waiting a year and coming out the other end with a crap leaving cert.

Why not put some effort in for the next year and a bit, and end up with a good Leaving Cert? You have to put effort in to make it in any field in life. Being interested in programming won't make you successful in business. Business skills are totally different to programing skills, and you'll have to put in a lot of non programming work to make it happen (along with the coding if you're doing it all on your own). Saying "there's no point, I'll just fail anyway" won't get you anywhere in business. But the good thing is that you can change that attitude, and now is the time to do it.

ahnow

If you have another year to go, literally just doing all of your homework and then cramming in the two weeks before you do the leaving will get you decent marks.
You could opt for business studies and it'd help you along for your start up.
I think it would be a monumental mistake to drop out of school...monumental! You could then go on to college and do programming/business and be flying with your start up. But jesus with no leaving cert even, the whole thing just looks a bit bleak. Dont make this mistake!

Fudge You

seventeen sheep wrote: »

No recruiter I know would even look at a CV if someone didn't have a leaving cert.

What recruiter actually asks to see your leaving certificate???
Ive never been asked in jobs interviews or by a recruitment agency

Stavro Mueller

Fudge You wrote: »

What recruiter actually asks to see your leaving certificate??? I've never been asked in jobs interviews or by a recruitment agency

A recruiter won't be asking for your leaving cert but they will look at your CV and see what your qualifications are. Especially if you're a young person starting out and don't have a lot of work experience under your belt.

OP, by dropping out of school you are limiting your options. You'd better hope and pray your online business works out because if you have to start jobhunting you'll soon find that your lack of qualifications will come against you. That you couldn't commit to even doing your leaving cert would be a red flag for a lot of employers. What employers also look for when interviewing candidates is evidence that they'll be a reliable employee. Someone who'll turn up for work every day, finish out the jobs of work they're given etc. Quite frankly, someone who couldn't be arsed doing the leaving cert is on the back foot from the get go.

iusedtoknow

Fudge You wrote: »

What recruiter actually asks to see your leaving certificate???
Ive never been asked in jobs interviews or by a recruitment agency

I'm 10 years into my career, have a a BA, MSc and countless certificates and am midway through an MBA and still have leaving certificate as the first thing I achieved. It doesn't matter at this point in my career, but it signals the jumping off point for me professionally. In fact, my BA doesn't matter at this point either, but i still have it on there.

Spunge

IDencI wrote: »

I see what everyone is saying but I honestly don't see the point in waiting a year and coming out the other end with a crap leaving cert.

PLC in computer programming -> gets you into college like DIT -> get degree in computer science. Can do that with a ****ty leaving cert it just takes an extra year for the PLC.

did it myself and been programmer for 2 years since grad

WeHaveToGoBack

As others have said, you'd be a fool to not do the LC. If you're into programming, there are courses around the country where you can get into colleges with as little as 150 points; which is easily obtainable if you even just do half your homework; never mind study.

Then, once you've a course on your sheet of paper the LC doesn't matter.

But even if you don't go to college, not doing the LC is a mistake.

IlmoNT4

OP finish school....If your a smart guy and good at coding then you should already realize that a successful business is not going to happen because of your coding ability. Plenty of amazing ideas never make it....

Just get the LC out of the way, then its done. You can start your business or head of to college.

You will not get a job without your LC any where.... And we are in the middle of a recession. You have to clever about these things..think about it. You apply for a job, or funding for your business
Theres you: Couldnt even commit to finishing the LC
Someone else: Completed LC, Completed University course
Who do you think they will pick

Its good to have a plan, its fantastic...but you want to be boxing clever and thats making sure you are doing everything you can to make sure that your future is going to be a success.

Honestly, if you cant be bothered finishing your LC, then you havent thought out your future plans very well.

Is there any other reason why you might not want to do your LC?
Whats your home life like?

deaddonkey15

Stay in school. The more you know, the further you go.

muddle84

Out of all my friends and people i went to school with that didnt do the leaving cert, which there would be about 10 i can think of off the top of my head, only one of them didnt go back and do it at some stage to carry on into into third level education. The one that didnt is running his own business in construction and has done very well. But all the others that went into other industries found they had to go back to do the leaving cert to get a third level education. It opens doors.
Stick with it. A year and a bit seems like an eternity at that age. But when you look back in ten years you will wonder why you were so bothered about it.

sashbash

I would finish the leaving cert and take a year out. In that year, you could practice with code even more and maybe set up a group of programmers to work with. You could regret not finishing the leaving while you had the chance. Use your programming as a hobbie to switch off if you find it stressful, but ultimately if you ever decided to go and do a course, most of them require at least leaving cert and you will be glad you finished it. It's great that you have a passion, so keep at it.

orthsquel

I don't think a business plan is really going to convince your parents of anything. They want to see that you are going to be doing something productive in the sense that if you are not going to do a LC that you do something else that keeps you in education, even if that is something practical.
If you are unmotivated in school, firstly why is that? secondly, what if you do drop out and you do up a business plan and have some objectives and goals for your project and then get unmotivated? Or distracted? Or you change your mind? Or you meet a girl/boy? Will you still be adamant that setting up a business is exactly what you want to do?
If you are JC level - stay in school and do TY and you will have time to work on this project for yourself; if you are already in 4th year/TY the same applies and use the time to work away at it and give yourself time; if you are in 5th year then you have pretty much already done all the work for the LC and you should stick it out and it still gives you a chance to motivate yourself with studying to get a decent LC to get into a PLC to pursue it. You can keep the project for summer, or a project for a PLC course.
Think of it this way: those Young Scientists over the last few years, especially those who have been successful in setting up a business with an online product or app were actually in school when they developed it. If you started it up in school you probably will get access to more support and expertise outside of your family background that can give you assistance. Outside of school if you were to approach say, Enterprise Ireland you'll be going solo and without support that might otherwise have promoted you or assisted you in a way that could secure funding.
Even if you think that by dropping out this is definitely what you are going to do, there is no guarantee that it will turn out that way, it's a massive gamble and you might have to face the reality that what you want to do with that project might not work out and you have to have a back up plan in place, as in, what options are there for you then educationally, will you be able to go back to the same school and start 5th year again, will you have to repeat 5th year, will you have to go to the Dept of Social Protection or PLCs and apply to get into a LC course specific to someone who dropped out?

Shrap

I'm not surprised that you're completely unmotivated considering that probably none of your interests are on the curriculum. My eldest felt the same as you and is in his LC year now. In fact, 2 weeks ago, he did drop out and is doing the LC from home now (with the support of the school) which suits him much better.

I took him along to a counsellor to make sure that he knew what he was letting himself (and me) in for, and that this was going to make a positive difference for him. I know your situation is not the same, in that my son realises he needs the LC in order to get out of here, go to college and head for the career he wants, but the lack of motivation sounds similar.

What came up at that session was the most useful thing I've heard in a long time. An ambition is not an ambition unless you have a clear plan written down and are following it. Until then, it's an aspiration - pie in the sky stuff. The counsellor told him to write down his long term plan and what he needs to get there - write down every step of the way, and bring it back down to how you are going to use every year/month/week/day/hour in the short term.

Taking your example:

*Your long term plan = Successful online business person. So, how do you intend to become that? Sitting in your bedroom with a dream is not going to cut it I'm afraid, but write down your dream. It will help you focus on why you are making/following a plan (motivation).

*So you need a medium term plan in order to become well trained enough to a) start a business and b) make it successful. How are you going to achieve that? Write it down (note: realistically, this will involve learning from some experts, ie. college).

*To get to put your medium term plan in action, what do you have to do? Make a short term plan which will probably mean getting your leaving cert, unless you have some brainwave that is eluding the rest of us here. How are you going to do that with no motivation eh? Motivate yourself with your own future.

What I'm trying to say to you here is that your motivation at the moment is all about your long term goal, but you have no plan to get there and you are seeing the LC as a demotivating factor instead of a step along the road towards your dream. These things take time, and effort. There are few short cuts. Take it from me, my eldest detests school with a passion, but he has since realised that he is going to have to do this work FOR HIMSELF. So that he CAN pursue his interests and not be holding himself back with his distaste for the curriculum. It's a means to an end, and thanks be to christ he's just copped on to that in the nick of time.

Every step along that plan, starting with the LC (starting now actually, with your decision here), you will open up more freedom for yourself to make different choices. Right now, you have very limited choices and yes, that sucks. Feels really crappy, right? I bet you'd hate to have these limited choices for many more years so don't limit yourself even further by dropping out, is my advice to you.

On your behalf, I also hate that you have little choice right now, as I hate it for my own son. But you have to earn your freedom of choice. You earn more power over your future by taking decisions (even now) that will allow you to realistically get what you want, and that's what gets you out of your room and into your successful business. Best of luck with it all.

Sorry, very long post

IDencI

Thanks for the advice everyone. I've been thinking and I think I'll try stick it out. I'm going to try to motivate myself and hopefully pursue my dreams in the future

Shrap

IDencI wrote: »

Thanks for the advice everyone. I've been thinking and I think I'll try stick it out. I'm going to try to motivate myself and hopefully pursue my dreams in the future

Write them down bud. You'd be surprised at how good they'll look on paper! My son has his room plastered with his ambitions now, and they're not aspirations anymore since he made a plan of action. :cool:

IDencI

Thanks shrap, some very helpful info in your post. Think I might just stick with it, best of luck to your son, I know how he feels!

Shrap

Cheers. I know he'd wish you the same Go for it.

Stavro Mueller

Good for you. View the Leaving Cert as a means to an end or, if you prefer, a necessary evil. You're still young - you've got plenty of time to pursue your dreams. There's no point cutting off your nose to spite your face. There's nothing to stop you thinking about what it is you'd like to achieve and how you want to go about it. Having the Leaving Cert might just grease those wheels, especially if you find you need it to do a course.

Glinda

Maybe look at it as a test of character OP - to see whether you can grit your teeth, get your head down and stick at something you don't like for eighteen months despite everything.

To be honest, I've always been prouder of those achievements that were really tough than those that came easily to me. Successful people can do the really hard stuff as well as the things that come easily and naturally. Anybody can do the easy things!

Think of the next year and a half as one of those tough times where you'll have to show grit and determination, because nothing else will get you through.

Then at the end of it all you'll have done something really difficult and achieved something few people can manage - to stay a hard course.

Best of luck with it all.

Eric Cartman

IDencI wrote: »

I see what everyone is saying but I honestly don't see the point in waiting a year and coming out the other end with a crap leaving cert.

I got a crap leaving cert (failed maths and didn't do super well on points) and dropped out of college after a year.

Im now an IT consultant running a company for almost 11 years , finish your leaving cert mate, nobody will care about points the week after you get it , but not having one at all will keep you out of a lot of the jobs you need to do to build up experience and a business reputation.

Butterface

My advice is to stick it out. I was in the exact same place as you were about 10+ years ago. I was completely unmotivated by the school curriculum and I was adamant that I could make it in the world without the LC.

At the beginning of 6th year I couldn't take it anymore and asked to leave the school. I spent a month or so at home dwelling on it and managed to get myself a job. After Christmas I had changed my mind, and decided to sit the Leaving that June. With my parent's permission I studied at home and sat the Leaving as an external candidate that June. I am so happy I managed to turn it around, and while my results weren't as good as they would have been if I had stayed on in school, I still managed to do well.

My first attempt at college didn't work out because I didn't know what I wanted to do, just followed the usual route. A few years later and with a bit more life experience I went and completed my degree.

Take your time OP. Study as best you can, as much as you can and sit your Leaving Cert. Then take a while to consider what you want to do. Best of luck buddy, I'm sure it will all turn out good for you.

Hollister11

iusedtoknow wrote: »

Well i'll tell you another story of 2 people I know that dropped out before their leaving cert

One couldn't get a job in dixons in Dublin due to no LC, the other couldn't get a job - period.

And one more question - when you talk about programming, I assume you mean honest to god coding, and not hacking. You need very good math skills - not in a algebraic/calculus (though these are important on their own) sort of way, but more in a being trained to think in algorithms, understand the principles of encryption and privacy....while you can pick things like this up a long the way, a little bit of training can go a long long way.

You don't don't need much more then a decent leaving cert maths level to program. Its more logic, and getting your head around what should happen when a event occurs.

Est28

Hey OP,
I won't blme you for WANTING to pack in the Leaving Cert but if it's worth anything I'll throw in my 2c.

- I HATED school. Mainly as someone else said.. most things just didn't interest me. I also taught myself lots of programming from about 12 years old onwards. I love that.
- I stuck it out and went to college. Even part of college were boring but some was awesome, pick subjects you like.
- While I was programming for years, when you go into the professional world you realize you know NOTHING. That's not a put down at all. I was in the same boat. Doing home projects and stuff it great to have the foundations but I'm about 6/7 years into my career now and really only really established myself as a real player in the company lately.
- If you prefer to work for yourself or freelance that is AWESOME! But I work near Boston, another startup hub. For every Zuckerberg who grab lightening in a bottle... I see a ridiculous amount of even Harvard grads who think they'll skip the corporate route and go to market with some cool app idea. It's not even that the idea is bad, but they can't get backing, or they have no personal connection, personal skills and no marketing ability, etc, etc, etc... there's SO much to making it big.
- If you DO want to do that, again, that's awesome but my advice from being in the industry would be get your LC in a year, decide if you're going to college or not or go working. But build the business on the side. Yes, that's a RIDICULOUS amount of time you'll need to invest to literally work or study and then get the business going on the side. But that's how successful people work. The people around here who work on these startups hardly sleep. It's insane but longterm they're hoping it pays off. If you half ass it or don't have REAL plans... it's not something you can live off of.
- Taking all the above into account. Research and research more. Marketing and selling your skills, product, ability is often more important than the actual skills you have. Sounds lame but it's often true. If you ca talk your self into jobs, you'll earn more than silenting being reall good at your job... just the way of the world.

Hope some of that helps. Not meant to discourage you, but have the right plan.

amdublin

IDencI wrote: »

Thanks shrap, some very helpful info in your post. Think I might just stick with it, best of luck to your son, I know how he feels!

Good for you! Stick it out. Do your homework and concentrate when in school. Bit of focussed stufy. And you'll be grand.

It'll fly by and you will have it behind you plus have it written on your cv.

Best of luck op!

LegacyUser

Go back and finish your leaving cert.
Your rationale for dropping out is not strong enough.
Go, build your business after your LC, but get the LC out of the way first.
If you were my teenager you'd be getting a kick in the h0le for your defeatist attitude regarding the LC. Nobody relishes state exams, but sitting them at least shows some credibility. Grow up. If you can't be bothered to do the minimum, then no one will have confidence in your future, not even you.

Melisandre121

Hi OP, when I was nearing the end of 5th year I decided I was going to drop out of school and focus on working because I was feeling unmotivated, like you. Now I look back and thing thank GOD I didn't. A year and a half seems like a long time now but trust me, in the grand scheme of things its nothing. Stay in school, you will definitely regret it if you don't.