RTE Long Wave 252 off-air

petronius

I notice RTE Radio One on Longwave 252 is off air this morning.

Harry Palmr

It was on earlier (was listening prior to 10 am)

petronius

Yes it was on earlier prior to 9am but was off air there about an hour ago.

turbocab

Algeria coming in quite well on 252 kHz now ,rte should move to 261 kHz to avoid the interference from Algeria,or else switch off

SimonMaher

From RTE:

"The service on Longwave 252 will be unavailable from 10 am on Monday 23rd March until 5.30pm on Wednesday 25th March.

This is due to essential maintenance of the transmitter. RTÉ apologies for any inconvenience caused."

Simon

petronius

That explains it, wonder if the work on the transmitter will mean it will be back up to full power (from back in the Atlantic 252 days).
Are they considering moving the frequency? Since you do get interference from that Algerian station especially in the south of england and northern france.

L1011

petronius wrote: »

That explains it, wonder if the work on the transmitter will mean it will be back up to full power (from back in the Atlantic 252 days).

Power consumption reasons mean this is extremely unlikely.

petronius wrote: »

Are they considering moving the frequency? Since you do get interference from that Algerian station especially in the south of england and northern france.

They'd need ITU clearance for this, so no.

Nokia 2630

petronius wrote: »

That explains it, wonder if the work on the transmitter will mean it will be back up to full power (from back in the Atlantic 252 days).
Are they considering moving the frequency? Since you do get interference from that Algerian station especially in the south of england and northern france.

No it is closing down for good in 2017, and next year 2016 it will operate from 7am - 7pm only.

Nokia 2630

The funny thing is, RTE gave lots of notice about this outage with top of the hour transmission messages running for the last week, yet the people on the savertelw252 facebook page say they heard nothing about it until today.

byte

Nokia 2630 wrote: »

The funny thing is, RTE gave lots of notice about this outage with top of the hour transmission messages running for the last week, yet the people on the savertelw252 facebook page say they heard nothing about it until today.

Shows how much they listen!

SPDUB

Nokia 2630 wrote: »

The funny thing is, RTE gave lots of notice about this outage with top of the hour transmission messages running for the last week, yet the people on the savertelw252 facebook page say they heard nothing about it until today.

The funny thing is RTE don't use one of their favourite spots that they had last year , presumably because it gets one of the biggest audiences , namely at the start and during Morning Ireland .

petronius

It is probably not the facebook generation who use the Long Wave service, but an older age profile, who listen in Britain and in parts of the North and west where FM (or DAB) is not available to them.

Antenna

RTE on 252 was noted going back on air yesterday just before 6PM, a slightly later return (30 mins) than planned.

Nokia 2630 wrote: »

No it is closing down for good in 2017, and next year 2016 it will operate from 7am - 7pm only.

Is the 7am to 7pm operation supposed to be starting at January 1st 2016, or sometime during 2016?

What did the' maintenance' this week involve, was it the actual transmitter etc or the mast ?

Nokia 2630

Antenna wrote: »

RTE on 252 was noted going back on air yesterday just before 6PM, a slightly later return (30 mins) than planned.



Is the 7am to 7pm operation supposed to be starting at January 1st 2016, or sometime during 2016?

No date has been specified for the reduced hours in 2016 however the full shutdown date is monday may 1 2017.

Greenman

That Algerian fella is really murdering RTE LW in Belgium. Move of channel would be nice.

This is worth a read if you have some time.

https://www.change.org/p/rte-don-t-cut-off-the-irish-in-britain/u/10184571?tk=FOqXwKRaKuJgQYNJ8jGgMhU0OPq9nIyfvyxtqegcfDs&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email

Antenna

turbocab wrote: »

Algeria coming in quite well on 252 kHz now ,rte should move to 261 kHz to avoid the interference from Algeria,or else switch off

As can be seen here:

http://www.hermanboel.eu/en-emwg-lw.htm

there is no one in Europe at all using 261, whilst 261's upper adjacent channel (270) is only used in Czechoslovakia, too far for adjacent channel use to cause problems around the intended coverage areas.

So if EITHER Ireland or Algeria moved up to 261 it would be mutually beneficial. The Algeria station no doubt wants to be heard by their large ex-pat community in France without impact from RTE, just as RTE is listened to in the UK on LW.
People around Dublin might not realise, but the Algerian interference is not just an issue outside this country, areas of this country where there are some genuine FM blackspots are also affected. In the south of the country Algeria is in the background by day (not at an annoying level) but at night the interference is serious

Its notable that Algeria has 3 LW frequencies in use, but it is only 252 which travels well in our direction due to its location on the north coast of Algeria. BBC R4 on 198kHz in Southern Ireland is unaffected at night by another Algerian transmitter on the same channel.

There is no good reason to me why either station couldn't at least temporarily move up 9kHz with international agreement (and agree to move back to 252 if any issues arise in the future) ?

Greenman wrote: »

That Algerian fella is really murdering RTE LW in Belgium. Move of channel would be nice.

Ireland's now only licenced MW transmitter- Spirit Radio's 549kHz from Monaghan, is also 'murdered' at night by a highpower Algerian music station in areas of the country where it would otherwise be audible. One has to ask the question could they ask to move up 18kHz to the clearer 567kHz channel, allocated to Ireland but idle since 2008, on the understanding they move off it again if RTE ever decide to reactivate 567kHz!?

Infoanon

The relatively low power that both 252LW and 549MW are operated does not help either, Algeria 252 is 2000kw while RTE are believed to be operating at 100kw if not lower.
549 is at 25kw afaik and is only used so that Spirit fulfilled their licencing agreement - in its previous guise as a pirate 549 was 25kw which tells you a lot about Spirits commitment to AM broadcasting.

John Joe Jones

Off air for maintenance again today. The site sure gets alot more maintenance from RTENl/2rn than it got from.Atlantic and Teamtalk http://www.rte.ie/aertel/desktopxhtml/169-6.html

Fuzzy Clam

Infoanon wrote: »

The relatively low power that both 252LW and 549MW are operated does not help either, Algeria 252 is 2000kw while RTE are believed to be operating at 100kw if not lower.
549 is at 25kw afaik and is only used so that Spirit fulfilled their licencing agreement - in its previous guise as a pirate 549 was 25kw which tells you a lot about Spirits commitment to AM broadcasting.

25 kW?
Divide by 2 and divide that by 2 again

Infoanon

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

25 kW?
Divide by 2 and divide that by 2 again

Think the last time that rig saw 25kw was in the UCB days.....

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly

Its easier said than done for a high power LW station to "move up a channel"

Legally the move would have to be agreed to by every country in Europe with an allocation (even if theyre not using it) on either the proposed or the (9KHz) adjacent channels. Technically the entire transmitter ATU and the aerial system would need a complete retune/overhaul.

Antenna wrote: »

(270) is only used in Czechoslovakia

surely you mean Austro-Hungary :-)

Ive always thought its time the LW/MW frequency plan was updated. The current plan was drawn up in 1975 and was only intended to remain in force until 1989 Many of the allocations havent been used in years (some never have been) many countries which recieved allocations in 1975 no longer exist (GDR, Yugoslavia USSR and the aforementioned Czechslovakia).

petronius

RTE LW 252 seems to be off air again this morning?
Are RTE trying to sabotage this service?

John Joe Jones

I saw a van up at the site at lunchtime so there probably is some kind of job being done.

petronius

They seem to do a lot more maintenance on this of late? Atlantic 252 and TeamTalk seemed to be better at keeping it on air than 2rn / RTE NL?
It would be interesting to see what they were actually doing, and see if this justified bringing the service off air.

RTE Say the service will be back on at 17:00

L1011

The mast is a decade older than when Atlantic and Teamtalk were on it. RTENL were doing the work then just as they are now.

Antenna

I remember Atlantic 252 going off after midnight a few occasions for maintenance, but never during the day.

BTW In Co. Cork, Crosshaven relay FMs (88.2, 90.4, 92.6, 100.0 and 101.8) were off for several hours last Tuesday during daytime. With it off I briefly tuned around some adjacent frequencies for any unusual DX, a French station floated over the weak BBC R4 on 92.5 for a few seconds then disappeared.

Antenna

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly wrote: »

Its easier said than done for a high power LW station to "move up a channel"

Legally the move would have to be agreed to by every country in Europe with an allocation (even if theyre not using it) on either the proposed or the (9KHz) adjacent channels. Technically the entire transmitter ATU and the aerial system would need a complete retune/overhaul.

Many of the high power LW stations in Europe you are thinking of are (or 'were' if now closed) directional using more than one radiating mast.
In the case of a non-directional, a single mast radiator, its much less technically challenging to move frequency to an adjacent channel. RTE's 252 is non-directional
The relatively new transmitter should be easy to move to 261kHz.
There would be no need to do anything with the mast itself, ATU changes would adjust for the change of aerial impedance.


Former RTE engineer Enda O'Kane has raised this issue (moving to 261kHz or on page below 'The Longwave slot next door to RTE LW252 is not being used')
I'm not aware if RTE (or 2rn) have replied to it ?

http://savertelongwaveradio.com/uk-media/

A cheap, inexpensive answer to the problem of Algerian interference on RTÉ’s 252 LW frequency is readily available and right under everyone’s noses, according to one of the engineers involved in originally establishing the Irish state broadcaster’s long wave service......

John Joe Jones

RTE should never have put Radio 1 on LW in the first place, they should have leased it to one of the many people who wanted it back in 2002 - 2003. This would have resulted in them never closing 567 which was alot more useful for sports opt outs.

total former

Antenna wrote: »

Former RTE engineer Enda O'Kane has raised this issue (moving to 261kHz or on page below 'The Longwave slot next door to RTE LW252 is not being used')
I'm not aware if RTE (or 2rn) have replied to it

Why would they reply? RTE are closing the LW service, not looking for ways to sink more money into it.

L1011

Antenna wrote: »

I remember Atlantic 252 going off after midnight a few occasions for maintenance, but never during the day.

Far more commercial reasons to do the Mx work during lower listenership periods back then than now.

petronius

RTE Radio 1 on longwave 252 was off air again this morning?

Welsh Megaman

petronius wrote: »

RTE Radio 1 on longwave 252 was off air again this morning?

Yep, back on now though

Antenna

off air last night (Monday) - for how long?? .. checked for it around 10PM last night and no sign of it, just Algeria... Tried again a couple of hours later and it was back

recent newspaper report about survey:
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/concerns-over-rte-longwave-future-31355854.html

turbocab

Antenna wrote: »

off air last night (Monday) - for how long?? .. checked for it around 10PM last night and no sign of it, just Algeria... Tried again a couple of hours later and it was back

recent newspaper report about survey:
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/concerns-over-rte-longwave-future-31355854.html

rte were not saying it was outdated when they bought the new drm lw transmitter only a few years back,that transmitter would have a useful lifespan of at least 25 years,of which it only around 10 years old,as for the frequency of 252 it is unusable in the uk now with algeria hammering it night and day,a move to 261khz would make a lot of sense since its a clear channel with nobody using it,

L1011

turbocab wrote: »

rte were not saying it was outdated when they bought the new drm lw transmitter only a few years back,that transmitter would have a useful lifespan of at least 25 years,of which it only around 10 years old,as for the frequency of 252 it is unusable in the uk now with algeria hammering it night and day,a move to 261khz would make a lot of sense since its a clear channel with nobody using it,

The new transmitter was bought assuming that DRM would take off. It hasn't and it won't. Its age is not an argument for keeping the service.

The tower is now rather old and requires far more costly maintenance as every year goes by.

Sports Bra

I think its a disgrace that this govenment are wasting money on pointless longwave research on the same week that they have put the children of working single parents into poverty. If the government want 252 lw to continue for elderly irish in England, why don't they remove the shackles put on RTE that prevents it from removing rte jr from rte 2 and having ads on rte news now ? Removing these shackles alone would bring in an extra 5 million per year in income, some of which could be ring fenced for minority taste services like lw.

turbocab

L1011 wrote: »

The new transmitter was bought assuming that DRM would take off. It hasn't and it won't. Its age is not an argument for keeping the service.

The tower is now rather old and requires far more costly maintenance as every year goes by.

the tower is rather old I think not ,the radio 4 tower on 198khz longwave is of 1930s vintage and still in service today,while the 252 tower is from the late 1980s

Fuzzy Clam

I think the BBC and presumably also RTE have a set period when the masts undergo major maintainence. Tullamore was done after approx 30 years IIRC so Summerhill may have 3 or 4 years left. Even with the current extension of 252, I can't see it carrying on after this.

L1011

turbocab wrote: »

the tower is rather old I think not ,the radio 4 tower on 198khz longwave is of 1930s vintage and still in service today,while the 252 tower is from the late 1980s

It is rather old. That there's an older tower (that requires ridiculously expensive maintenance work) is irrelevant

2RN has replaced pretty much all their pre-1980s towers at this stage. This would mean that they would likely consider that tower to have a decade left at most before they'd replace it.

Its pretty much the same as a car or a house in many ways - a 1930s house is liveable in with expensive upgrades and far higher ongoing expenses than a 1980s house is but they're both far dearer to keep going than a new one.

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

The new transmitter was bought assuming that DRM would take off. It hasn't and it won't. Its age is not an argument for keeping the service.

it is . along with others all ready done to death.

end of the road

Sports Bra wrote: »

I think its a disgrace that this govenment are wasting money on pointless longwave research on the same week that they have put the children of working single parents into poverty. If the government want 252 lw to continue for elderly irish in England, why don't they remove the shackles put on RTE that prevents it from removing rte jr from rte 2 and having ads on rte news now ? Removing these shackles alone would bring in an extra 5 million per year in income, some of which could be ring fenced for minority taste services like lw.

how would it bring in extra income, and where are you getting the 5000000 from? oh, wait

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

It is rather old. That there's an older tower (that requires ridiculously expensive maintenance work) is irrelevant

its not irrelevant. its relevant

Fuzzy Clam

L1011 wrote: »

It is rather old. That there's an older tower (that requires ridiculously expensive maintenance work) is irrelevant

2RN has replaced pretty much all their pre-1980s towers at this stage. This would mean that they would likely consider that tower to have a decade left at most before they'd replace it.

Its pretty much the same as a car or a house in many ways - a 1930s house is liveable in with expensive upgrades and far higher ongoing expenses than a 1980s house is but they're both far dearer to keep going than a new one.

The masts that have been replaced are mostly, if not all, mountain top masts. These are populated with a large number of different antennae. The wind loading would be much greater than the 252 mast. Athlone remaining mast is 85 years old, Tullamore 40.
Periodic replacement of insulators and it will outlive both of us.

L1011

end of the road wrote: »

its not irrelevant. its relevant

Stating your opinion as fact without even a cursory attempt to justify it does not make it fact. This applies to both your replies to me.

L1011

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

The masts that have been replaced are mostly, if not all, mountain top masts. These are populated with a large number of different antennae. The wind loading would be much greater than the 252 mast. Athlone remaining mast is 85 years old, Tullamore 40.
Periodic replacement of insulators and it will outlive both of us.

Athlone and Tullamore are out of use.

Replacement if components is not free - the costs of keeping the mast in use will only rise as it ages

Fuzzy Clam

L1011 wrote: »

Athlone and Tullamore are out of use.

Replacement if components is not free - the costs of keeping the mast in use will only rise as it ages

So what. They still are maintained.

Athlone is used anyway.

Your points about older masts not being maintained is factually wrong.

John Joe Jones

I wonder what will be the outcome of the survey ?

L1011

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

So what. They still are maintained.

Athlone is used anyway.

Your points about older masts not being maintained is factually wrong.

What is athlone used for?

What maintenance is done to them?

Clarkestown would likely be scrapped if 252 closed as its of no other use. Rising ongoing maintenance costs must be taken in to account - the handwaving on here by anoraks wanting to retain it is ridiculous

Fuzzy Clam

L1011 wrote: »

What is athlone used for?

What maintenance is done to them?

Clarkestown would likely be scrapped if 252 closed as its of no other use. Rising ongoing maintenance costs must be taken in to account - the handwaving on here by anoraks wanting to retain it is ridiculous

The remaining mast has comms and phone stuff on it.
I agree that it would make most sense to scrap the 252 mast rather than maintain it should the LW not continue and no use can be found for it. This, I guess, will not be an issue for a few years yet.

total former

John Joe Jones wrote: »

I wonder what will be the outcome of the survey ?

Depends whether it's published before or after the election...

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

What is athlone used for?

What maintenance is done to them?

Clarkestown would likely be scrapped if 252 closed as its of no other use. Rising ongoing maintenance costs must be taken in to account - the handwaving on here by anoraks wanting to retain it is ridiculous

there is no "handwaving" by "anoraqs" in this thread. the only people who want to keep it is those who know this vital transmitter is of benefit to elderly irish residents in the uk who left the homeland years ago for a better life but who need and want a vital link to the motherland, and those here in ireland who cannot get fm reception.