Right of way M50

DvB

Quick one guys,

Driving along the M50 yesterday afternoon, in the driving lane motoring comfortably at 100km/h cars all around moving at the same pace, bit of a gap behind me, coming past a slip road onto the M50 when a car entering from the slip road came alongside & tried to basically force me out into the middle lane which I couldn't do as it was full of cars matching my speed... anyway, they eventually braked & moved in behind me & blasted the horn repeatedly whilst flashing lights & a quick glance back in my rear view mirror showed a quite angry driver giving me the finger & the w*nker gesture whilst looking like a heart attack about to happen... this ranting etc. continued until they roared past me on the inside which I was happy to let happen (despite the fact they clipped my side mirror), as I really don't need that kind of grief.

Thing is, was I in the right to hold my line and not brake in order to let them into my lane, i.e. had I right of way as I was already in lane or had they the right of way entering? I always understood that the slip roads don't have right of way but must admit I second guessed myself afterwards. No doubt boardies will be able to help here.... would rather know for sure going forward.

uck51js9zml2yt

Coming to a slip road you should always move to the middle lane to allow cars to come onto the motorway.

bucketybuck

You had right of way, its up to him to merge safely.

You said he passed you on the "inside", do you mean he passed you on your right or left? I've always taken inside to mean on the left, but you say you were in the left hand lane?

bucketybuck

Kohen Pitiful Voyager wrote: »

Coming to a slip road you should always move to the middle lane to allow cars to come onto the motorway.

Its good practice but thats not the question asked. There is no obligation for the OP to move to the middle lane.

K.O.Kiki

The other driver sounds like a headcase.
I'll never understand how people get so angry while driving.

cruizer101

Ok I know rules of road aren't the letter of the law but the say when joining a motorway to "Give way to traffic already on the Motorway" so yes you were in the right.

Secondly if you have his reg I'd be reporting him, getting angry and clipping a mirror on the motorway is a recipe for a much worse accident.

godtabh

Its a regular occurrence on the M50 (and I am sure other motorways). If I can I move into the farside lane coming to a merge but it isnt always possible. If it isnt possible to person doing the merge is meant to do so safely.

*Kol*

The cars on the road already have right of way but it is good practice to move out into the middle lane to allow merging. What would have been good practice in the OP's case was to adjust their speed slightly to allow that car to merge in front or behind them. It's a case of basic observance by both parties TBH. The angry man that was merging should have seen the scenario too and adjusted his speed to merge in before or after the OP too.

BMJD

I would move lane if possible, if not I do my best to give them a gap to slot into. After that it's up to them to figure out how to make a perfectly simple and logical manoeuvre.

Caliden

It's up to the merging car to adjust their speed to merge safely. Some people feel as though it's not their responsibility to slow down slightly to merge.

Pinch Flat

In other countries, people have generally grasped the concept of joining a motorway. The key principle is that people already on the motorway have right of way.

In Ireland, however,, there is a sizable majority that struggle. From Section 11 of the ROTR:

"Joining the motorway

When entering the motorway, be careful and pay attention, and let traffic already on the motorway pass. You must follow the steps below when joining a motorway.

Use the acceleration lane to build up your speed before merging into traffic on the motorway.

Signal early to other motorists that you intend to merge.

As you approach on the slip road, check in your mirrors and your blind spot for a safe gap in traffic in the left-hand lane of the motorway.

Obey road signs and road markings.

Do not drive on hatch markings before merging into traffic on the motorway.

Give way to traffic already on the motorway.

Adjust your speed as you join the motorway so you match, as near as possible, the general speed of traffic in that lane.

Treat each lane change as a seperate manoeuvre. Stay in the left-hand lane long enough to adjust to the speed of traffic before attempting to
overtake."

Guy joining the motorway was a total ar$e and in the wrong, but as someone said above for some reasons driving makes some people really angry. This combined with the neanderthal instinct on the roads can make them unduly dangerous.

hardCopy

Pinch Flat wrote: »

In other countries, people have generally grasped the concept of joining a motorway. The key principle is that people already on the motorway have right of way.

In Ireland, however,, there is a sizable majority that struggle. From Section 11 of the ROTR:

"Joining the motorway

When entering the motorway, be careful and pay attention, and let traffic already on the motorway pass. You must follow the steps below when joining a motorway.

Use the acceleration lane to build up your speed before merging into traffic on the motorway.

Signal early to other motorists that you intend to merge.

As you approach on the slip road, check in your mirrors and your blind spot for a safe gap in traffic in the left-hand lane of the motorway.

Obey road signs and road markings.

Do not drive on hatch markings before merging into traffic on the motorway.

Give way to traffic already on the motorway.

Adjust your speed as you join the motorway so you match, as near as possible, the general speed of traffic in that lane.

Treat each lane change as a seperate manoeuvre. Stay in the left-hand lane long enough to adjust to the speed of traffic before attempting to
overtake."

Guy joining the motorway was a total ar$e and in the wrong, but as someone said above for some reasons driving makes some people really angry. This combined with the neanderthal instinct on the roads can make them unduly dangerous.

All of the above steps assume a gap exists. If nobody leaves a gap for joining vehicles then everyone would have to jam on at the end of the slip and wait for a gap, there would be carnage.

I always try to leave a gap if I can see someone coming down the slip, if they can't see the opportunity and accelerate to fill the gap then they can't be helped.

doolox

The merger had two choices. Either slow down and pull in behind the car already on the left lane or speed up and pull in ahead of the car in the left lane.

This always requires the standard 2 second spacing of cars on the motorway which is not observed a lot of the time, to the frustration and consternation of many drivers attempting to join the motorway especially at rush hours.

Its a question of give and take, while on the motorway you should be checking to see that the 2 second gap is present between you and the car ahead to allow for lane changers, mergers etc.

hi5

You were correct OP, it's up to the guy joining to merge correctly.

AndyBoBandy

It's this sort of behaviour that is dictating that I get a 2nd dash cam so I will be able to not only record whats in front of me, but whats behind me as well.

Special Circumstances

Kohen Pitiful Voyager wrote: »

Coming to a slip road you should always move to the middle lane to allow cars to come onto the motorway.

If I move right it's because I always assume that people will join the main road at 40kmph below the flow, and with no regard for their blind spot.

You are under no obligation to move. If there happens to be a group of cars flying by on the outside - do you multiply the stupidity of the crap slip road merger by dawdling out in front of cars to your right?

Move by all means if you can without adding to the problem. Otherwise just be prepared for somone who always changes up at 2k rpm to trundle out in front of you.

omega666

You had right of way OP, but it's common courtesy/sense to allow someone to safely merge if traffic is heavy.

If someone is trying to merge beside me or slightly in front of me i will ease off the accelerator and allow them.
If they are slightly behind me i will speed up a little bit to give them room.

DvB

omega666 wrote: »

You had right of way OP, but it's common courtesy/sense to allow someone to safely merge if traffic is heavy.

I agree 100% & that would be my normal practice, however, in this instance I had nowhere to go as the lane to my right was full of traffic & there was simply no gap to move into. Hence driving at a steady speed attempting to making it easier for traffic entering to judge the speeds etc.

FTR when the car passed me on the inside (i.e. to my left) they were in what was the furthest left 'slip' lane that continues on to join the next slip road leaving the M50

bucketybuck

DvB wrote: »

FTR when the car passed me on the inside (i.e. to my left) they were in what was the furthest left 'slip' lane that continues on to join the next slip road leaving the M50

So he moved in behind you, and then moved back into a slip lane to pass you on your left? At the next junction?

Pinch Flat

hardCopy wrote: »

All of the above steps assume a gap exists. If nobody leaves a gap for joining vehicles then everyone would have to jam on at the end of the slip and wait for a gap, there would be carnage.

I always try to leave a gap if I can see someone coming down the slip if they can't see the opportunity and accelerate to fill the gap then they can't be helped.

Yeah problem is if you do make a gap, by slowing down, you'll get someone who's unable to merge or lack the confidence to do so. So while you're waiting for them to join, they can in some cases stop dead on the slip road.

I drove about 800km from north to south France in a day a couple of years ago - it was on the 7th July which is apparently the busiest day on the motorways (kids finish school and everyone hits the road). It was extremely;y busy on the roads.

Almost universally at every junction, people would move out from the slip road, allow cars to merge, them move back in again. Not one single piece of aggro in 10 hours odd of driving. As I said, they've grasped this years ago but in Ireland there's still a culture that's a mix of ignorance, entitlement and shear dopey headed carry on that creates that situations that are mostly avoidable.

DvB

bucketybuck wrote: »

So he moved in behind you, and then moved back into a slip lane to pass you on your left? At the next junction?

Pretty much straight after he joined my lane, he had his rant & rave & decided he wanted past me ASAP so with the lane to the right full of traffic he decided to undertake me in the slip lane to my left, then took off at speed & moved back into the lane a few hundred metres further up.... he then shot across all 3 lanes to the lane furthest right & raced off pretty sharpish...

I'll not lie, it shook me a tad as I had my wife & 2 young kids in the car with me, I think the fact I was driving my wifes car with 'L' plates up may have something to do with it, I've noticed when driving her car I get treated 'differently' on the roads.

Either way, thanks for the feedback folks, much appreciated.

Pinch Flat

It's was obviously an emergency situation or his journey was more important than yours. Usually I'll find people pull these moves in these situations, particularly on a Sunday.

Guy sounds like he's an accident waiting to happen.

You should remove your L plates (if you're a qualified driver) when driving on the motorway. Learner drivers are generally treated with compempt, because we all know that the vast majority of people are born already knowing how to drive a car.

It's illegal to drive on a motorway as a learner.

DvB

Pinch Flat wrote: »

It's was obviously an emergency situation or his journey was more important than yours. Usually I'll find people pull these moves in these situations, particularly on a Sunday.

Guy sounds like he's an accident waiting to happen.

You should remove your L plates when driving on the motorway.

Truth be told it was the clear level of aggression that shook me, the driver had serious anger issues.... gas thing is if you met the same person face to face I'd bet they backed down pretty quickly. Amazing what being sat behind a steering wheel does to some folk.

FTR I've a full licence, I was the driver purely because we were on the motorway & my wife (provisional licence holder) couldn't drive on it without a full licence.
As for removing the 'L' plates, given the way they're stuck to the window thats impractical, but maybe worth looking into given the different reactions to when I'm driving in my own car.

Ciano35

DvB wrote: »

Pretty much straight after he joined my lane, he had his rant & rave & decided he wanted past me ASAP so with the lane to the right full of traffic he decided to undertake me in the slip lane to my left, then took off at speed & moved back into the lane a few hundred metres further up.... he then shot across all 3 lanes to the lane furthest right & raced off pretty sharpish...

I'll not lie, it shook me a tad as I had my wife & 2 young kids in the car with me, I think the fact I was driving my wifes car with 'L' plates up may have something to do with it, I've noticed when driving her car I get treated 'differently' on the roads.

Either way, thanks for the feedback folks, much appreciated.

That is shocking driving, what a pr!ck. I'd say just don't worry about it as it's obvious he was just a tool.

Markcheese

*Kol* wrote: »

The cars on the road already have right of way but it is good practice to move out into the middle lane to allow merging. What would have been good practice in the OP's case was to adjust their speed slightly to allow that car to merge in front or behind them. It's a case of basic observance by both parties TBH. The angry man that was merging should have seen the scenario too and adjusted his speed to merge in before or after the OP too.

If the op had speeded up or slowed down to accomadate the joining car - wouldn't it just lead to traffic just second guessing each other.. Or you slow down to let one car join - a second car on the slip speeds up to get ahead -forcing you to slow more -
Of course it doesn't help having slip roads of different lengths and formats ( even on the same stretch of motorway/ dc)

Happens all the time Northbound in the evenings with drivers flying down the slip at Ballymount into the slow moving traffic on the motorway.

Part of the reason there is such a slow down around Ballymount and the red cow is the mass exodus of lane 1 into 2 and 3 because of cars intimidating people out of the driving lane.

Guy:Incognito

*Kol* wrote: »

The cars on the road already have right of way but it is good practice to move out into the middle lane to allow merging. What would have been good practice in the OP's case was to adjust their speed slightly to allow that car to merge in front or behind them. It's a case of basic observance by both parties TBH. The angry man that was merging should have seen the scenario too and adjusted his speed to merge in before or after the OP too.

The person on the slip is the one who should adjust their speed to merge. People on the motorway should maintain their speed as much as possible to avoid things like concertina traffic build ups.

The Op is perfectly fine doing as they were doing . If people are driving with proper gaps theres no need for anyone to move lanes at all. People just merge in to the gaps. Outside of an emergency situation, you should never have to brake on a motorway.

hardCopy wrote: »

All of the above steps assume a gap exists. If nobody leaves a gap for joining vehicles then everyone would have to jam on at the end of the slip and wait for a gap, there would be carnage.
.

I find the problem is usually with the people merging. They all congregate in the right lane of the slip that ends with a gap of about 20 metres to join the motorway. They come down in a tight group and all assume they can merge together in a clump, with a nice big empty lane to their left that continues all the way to the next junction where they could merge at their leisure.
People on the motorway need to leave gaps as well as those looking to merge. As it is, neither group are doing it right.

People here seem to have an aversion to left lanes of all types. Funnily enough, bus lanes seem to be the exception......

biko

DvB wrote: »

Quick one guys

You were right, he was wrong.

Guy:Incognito

hardCopy wrote: »

I always try to leave a gap if I can see someone coming down the slip if they can't see the opportunity and accelerate to fill the gap then they can't be helped.

BMJD wrote: »

I would move lane if possible, if not I do my best to give them a gap to slot into. After that it's up to them to figure out how to make a perfectly simple and logical manoeuvre.

I may be taking this up wrong but are you not driving with a proper gap the whole time? Whether someone is coming down to merge is irrelevant .

Jesus.

DvB wrote: »

I think the fact I was driving my wifes car with 'L' plates up may have something to do with it, I've noticed when driving her car I get treated 'differently' on the roads.

I think you could be right there. There are bullies aplenty on the roads and if they see a learner driver they like to act like w*nkers towards them.

Jesus.

Pinch Flat wrote: »

in Ireland there's still a culture that's a mix of ignorance, entitlement and shear dopey headed carry on that creates that situations that are mostly avoidable.

You're right there mate. I will admit that until I started reading this Forum I was one of those eejits who didn't merge properly. I used to come up/down the slip at say 50mph and rather than speed up I thought I had to give way to those on the Motorway and try and get in that way rather than match the speed of the traffic and get in ahead of people. Looking back now, I don't know how I could have thought this way as it now seems so obvious...............and stupid. Now I get up to speed asap and pull out in front of someone or just after they've got past.

The only thing I can think of for the reason for me not knowing this is that when I trained and did the test etc there was no Motorway driving involved so I guess I took the rules of the secondary roads out onto the Motorway, IE letting people go past before I joined a bigger road. Still, better late than never I suppose

ardmacha

One major aspect of bad driving here is people tailgating on the slip road. One person can zip merge into the traffic, but if there are 4 or 5 they cannot do so. On a slip road you should be well away from the car in front in order to merge into the traffic in any sort of sensible way, but you still get cnuts driving up your bumper.

biko

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I may be taking this up wrong but are you not driving with a proper gap the whole time? Whether someone is coming down to merge is irrelevant .

A gap between two cars may not be big enough to fit a third in safely, hence it's better to slow a little when you see people coming down the slip so they can see the big gap.

Boskowski

I got my license in Germany and we were taught that while people were encouraged (both) to facilitate the merging of traffic from slip roads by adjusting speed we were not allowed to change lanes to make room for the joiners. I never fully grasped the reason behind that. Maybe to stop people making hasty lane changes causing havoc but if its safe to do so I thought it was a good idea. Any ideas from the fellow Irish motorists what that German rule is all about?

As for the question at hand. You have the right of way. The joiner has to try and merge. If they can't they may even have to come to a full stop.

whiskeyman

Boskowski wrote: »

I got my license in Germany and we were taught that while people were encouraged (both) to facilitate the merging of traffic from slip roads by adjusting speed we were not allowed to change lanes to make room for the joiners. I never fully grasped the reason behind that. Maybe to stop people making hasty lane changes causing havoc but if its safe to do so I thought it was a good idea. Any ideas from the fellow Irish motorists what that German rule is all about?

As for the question at hand. You have the right of way. The joiner has to try and merge. If they can't they may even have to come to a full stop.

In a typical German reasoning, I'd reckon it's because it really shouldn't be required, and it may increase the likelihood of an accident.
The onus is on the driver merging to adjust their speed accordingly and make the manoeuvre.
A huge problem is the lack of early observation by the driver approaching the driving lane.
So many drivers just speed up until far too late as they are about to merge in, but then try to force their way in.
You should be observing the driving lanes at the earliest opportunity, and have adequate time to adjust your speed to merge in safely.

It's the same situation so many drivers have when approaching roundabouts... they always speed up and break upon entering, then wait for the right moment.
You really should keep a constant speed well prior to entering, and observing as early as possible in order to join with minimal need for such a change in speed if you've timed it well.

Boskowski

Agreed. So many motorists seem to live in a cocoon that stretches no more than 20 years ahead of them. Looking out to 3 cars ahead of them or to the next traffic light or observing roundabouts from 100 or 50 yards out is absolutely beyond them

ironclaw

Boskowski wrote: »

Agreed. So many motorists seem to live in a cocoon that stretches no more than 20 years ahead of them. Looking out to 3 cars ahead of them or to the next traffic light or observing roundabouts from 100 or 50 yards out is absolutely beyond them

Probably doesn't help that Ireland has zero motorway education to boot

Pinch Flat

ironclaw wrote: »

Probably doesn't help that Ireland has zero motorway education to boot

I got my test in the UK and it was the same there - Motorway driving is excluded from the test, and it was recommended that you take advanced lessons before driving on a motorway. Not sure what the situation is in other EU countries.

Rules of the Road have a whole section dedicated to motorways, so the information about the basics is out there.

creedp

Boskowski wrote: »

I got my license in Germany and we were taught that while people were encouraged (both) to facilitate the merging of traffic from slip roads by adjusting speed we were not allowed to change lanes to make room for the joiners. I never fully grasped the reason behind that. Maybe to stop people making hasty lane changes causing havoc but if its safe to do so I thought it was a good idea. Any ideas from the fellow Irish motorists what that German rule is all about?

As for the question at hand. You have the right of way. The joiner has to try and merge. If they can't they may even have to come to a full stop.

Would agree with the rule in general .. nearly involved in an accident this morning on M2 as overtaking a car which suddenly without warning swerved across in front of me and then obviously seeing me in his mirror swerved back in again. Only reason I could see was that there was a merging lane 500m up ahead. In any case he then continued on past the merging lane in the left lane.

IMO a rule which forced people in left lane to move to right lane at a merging point gives priority to traffic entering a motorway which is counter intitutive. The real issue is people not leaving enough space between the car in front in the left lane particularly coming up to a merging point.

*Kol*

Markcheese wrote: »

If the op had speeded up or slowed down to accomadate the joining car - wouldn't it just lead to traffic just second guessing each other.. Or you slow down to let one car join - a second car on the slip speeds up to get ahead -forcing you to slow more -
Of course it doesn't help having slip roads of different lengths and formats ( even on the same stretch of motorway/ dc)

On the M50 it's not really a surprise to have somebody merging from a slip road given the volume of traffic on it. Its a matter of moving the accelerator a fraction either way. The OP and angry man must have seen that they were heading for the same bit of road.

It's like those situations where you can see that someone in the left lane wants to pull out into the right hand lane in front of you but they are nervous that they haven't enough space to do so safely or that they will illicit an angry man reaction if they pull out. An experienced driver will see this and give them a quick flash of their lights to signal them to pull out.

smeal

Came off slip road from Santry last weekend onto the M1. There is very little road space between the slip road and the hard shouler merge to allow you time to pull out on to the motorway and bare in mind you have the traffic coming out of the Port Tunnel just behind you. Anyways, driving along looking to pull out but there was two massive lorries on the inside lane just after coming out of the Port Tunnel. Because of the speed and length of the lorries I couldn't have possibly pulled out or would have ended up almost having to come to a halt which was far too dangerous with other traffic behind me. Ended up being pushed into the hard shoulder on the left hand side. Bit shaken after it to be honest! In that particular situation, the lorries should have seen me coming down the left and pulled into the middle lane but instead let me go straight on to the hard shoulder!

freddieot

By all accounts the lorries did nothing wrong by the sound of it. What makes you so sure it was safe for them to pull into the other lane to make space for you ? I assume they neither speeded up or slowed down. Probably never noticed you as they were paying attention to the road ahead.

It's your responsibility to merge safely. If you ended up on the hard shoulder it was because you misjudged the manoeuvre, don't blame other drivers that were apparently minding the own business, for a mistake you made.

650Ginge

Kohen Pitiful Voyager wrote: »

Coming to a slip road you should always move to the middle lane to allow cars to come onto the motorway.

This is bull.

hardCopy

I've just remembered this was discussed recently as part of another thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93185946&postcount=74

Guy:Incognito

biko wrote: »

A gap between two cars may not be big enough to fit a third in safely, hence it's better to slow a little when you see people coming down the slip so they can see the big gap.

Proper distances at motorway speed is plenty for a car to get in to. If theres not enough room between you and the car in front for another car to merge in to, you're too close.

kona

Saw the same situation last Wednesday on the airport slip onto m1 city bound.

Woman in 206 basically closed her eyes to merge doing 60, a petrol tanker on the inside lane doin at least 100, she pulled infront of it oblivious to it. I honest to god thought I was about to witness a serious collision to the stage I jammed on to stay away from the carnage.

Truck braked so hard there was blue smoke everywhere.

How people ain't killed merging I've no idea, I blame the truck personally , there's two outside lanes here, stupidity being in 1st lane when there's merging traffic.
You have to expect every driver is as thick as the 206 driver.

Jesus.

kona wrote: »

Woman in 206 basically closed her eyes to merge doing 60, a petrol tanker on the inside lane doin at least 100.

I haven't seen a Tanker doing 100 since Mad Max!

Special Circumstances

kona wrote: »

You have to expect every driver is as thick as the 206 driver.

Fit all trucks with cow catchers... void insurance for anyone pulling onto a motorway at a speed too slow to escape a truck

Special Circumstances

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Proper distances at motorway speed is plenty for a car to get in to. If theres not enough room between you and the car in front for another car to merge in to, you're too close.

Yup.
Some people are very attached to that space, freaking out if someone dives into "their" space. If the space was bug enough first day what's the big deal? Ease off 2kmph and you have it back again.
(Now, someone merging in at at least 2kmph less than you is an annoyance in fairness)

kona

Jesus. wrote: »

I haven't seen a Tanker doing 100 since Mad Max!

Well I was doing 80 and he passed me quick enough.

kona

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Fit all trucks with cow catchers... void insurance for anyone pulling onto a motorway at a speed too slow to escape a truck

What are you on about?