Fiat 500 oil consumption.

Toyotafanboi

Just noticed as mams 500 pulled away today, when she first started it she got quite a cloud of blue smoke from it, so i said i'd dip it for oil when she got home.

dipped it as the manual said, on level ground approximately 5 minutes after the engine has been turned off. the dipstick was dry. the bottom of the dipstick below the minimum mark didn't even get wet. dipped it again after 15 minutes, still dry.

we bought it last October with 13k kms on it, full serviced (or so we were told) from a fiat dealer, there is just gone 17k kms on it now. obviously we may pay the dealer a visit tomorrow, i'm just wondering should i top it up before i go?

i understand that i should top it up, but if i turn up complaining of finding the car has used all it's oil and then they check it and it's full, then i'd look a bit stupid and it would start a long drawn out measuring consumption process. Whereas if i turn up with a dry sump and they were they last people to service it 4k km's ago, then it's clear cut.

the manual states no more than 400ml per 1k km is acceptable, so i think we are well across that threshold.

Atlantic Dawn

Did you ever check the oil in it? Could give idea of the burn rate if you knew how many kms since last check. I wouldn't drive the car if dip stick is dry, you will risk destroying the engine.

Toyotafanboi

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Did you ever check the oil in it? Could give idea of the burn rate if you knew how many kms since last check. I wouldn't drive the car if dip stick is dry, you will risk destroying the engine.

tbh no, i checked it the day we got the car just to please myself that it had been serviced as we took collection of the car the day after it came into stock and i suspected they may have done a rush job on prepping it for us, so it was full 4k ago but no checks in the meantime.

i know that is a big time frame to not check the oil for, but most of us would assume that a virtually new car could do more than 4k kms without running dry would we not?

i may put enough in it just to bring it to the minimum level before bringing it over, maybe that would be best.

f140

could you take a video of the blue smoke. this wouldn't be normal in a new car. make sure you don't drive it any further until you put a bit of oil in it.

tobothehobo

Probably not the issue but 400ml per 1000km is a fair bit of consumption. I definitely would definitely not start the car without putting oil in. I'm assuming the 500 only takes 3 to 3.5 litres but don't know. If I was you I'd find out exactly it takes and then fill it checking on the dipstick and record how much you put in the difference is how much it burned. Check for leaks and then go back to where you bought it. I know you don't want a long drawn out process of diagnosis but to be honest that's what your going to have unless there is an obvious leak there is no way any dealer is going to strip the head of to check valve seals or piston rings without checking the exact consumption over a period of time.

Renegade Mechanic

You've done 4,000 km to n a car that consumes 400ml every thousand k. Thats 1.6 litres. Most dipsticks go "dry" once they've lost one. Tbh, depending on the engine, it may only take around three litres from service so it may not actually be a problem as such. What engine do you have, op?

MuppetCheck

The blue smoke would worry me on a fresh car tbh - it shouldn't be there. It's quite possible that a dry dipstick isn't all that much oil in the whole scheme of things but they might use that as an excuse quoting the usage per thousand km.

If it was me I'd be topping it up and seeing how much it takes. Then work out if it's over the allowed amount and go in with a complaint that it's using a lot of oil, and there's blue smoke.

zizou_

+1 ^^^^^^^.

I would be very nervous returning a car burning oil with an empty dipstick. Assuming it takes 1l between min and max on dipstick the dealer can claim owner negligence for not checking the oil in 4k km (based on max acceptable oil consumption).

There is often a clause in the owners manual about checking the oil frequently e.g. Every second time refuelling car to cover dealer/manufacturer.

Toyotafanboi

just for those who don't know, because i didn't mention it, the car is a 141 1.2 500. we bought it in October last year, it was registered in April 14, so i assume it was a hire drive for it's first 6 months. 13k on it when we bought it from the Fiat dealer, just gone 17k this week.

f140 wrote: »

could you take a video of the blue smoke. this wouldn't be normal in a new car. make sure you don't drive it any further until you put a bit of oil in it.

the cloud was large. the sort of thing you'd see on a TV advert as a joke... a very large, heavily blue cloud just as the engine started and was cleared after 2-3 seconds.

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

You've done 4,000 km to n a car that consumes 400ml every thousand k. Thats 1.6 litres. Most dipsticks go "dry" once they've lost one. Tbh, depending on the engine, it may only take around three litres from service so it may not actually be a problem as such. What engine do you have, op?

well, the manual says that the maximum acceptable consumption is 400ml per 1k kms, my expectation would be that a virtually new car wouldn't come quite so close to this threshold but i could be wrong.

MuppetCheck wrote: »

The blue smoke would worry me on a fresh car tbh - it shouldn't be there. It's quite possible that a dry dipstick isn't all that much oil in the whole scheme of things but they might use that as an excuse quoting the usage per thousand km.

If it was me I'd be topping it up and seeing how much it takes. Then work out if it's over the allowed amount and go in with a complaint that it's using a lot of oil, and there's blue smoke.

i just checked the manual, a full sump in the 1.2 8v is only 2.5 liters :eek:

zizou_ wrote: »

+1 ^^^^^^^.
I would be very nervous returning a car burning oil with an empty dipstick. Assuming it takes 1l between min and max on dipstick the dealer can claim owner negligence for not checking the oil in 4k km (based on max acceptable oil consumption).

There is often a clause in the owners manual about checking the oil frequently e.g. Every second time refuelling car to cover dealer/manufacturer.

i see your point, but i feel the best way to now approach this would be to drain the sump and see what is in there now, subtract that number from 2.5 and then divide the remainder by 4, to see what the consumption per 1k kms is. the dealership were the last people to fill it, so it would be apt for them to quantify it again now, if it weren't for the risk of driving it there.

MuppetCheck

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

i just checked the manual, a full sump in the 1.2 8v is only 2.5 liters :eek:

Dipstick is most likely relative. 2.5 litres doesn't give much breathing space mind!

Renegade Mechanic

2.5 liters? Jesus :eek:
The older 1.2s at least took over 3 iirc. In that case the oil could, theoretically run out in just 6,250 km and be acceptable according to the book!! Which, of course it clearly wouldnt.

The only thing with such a small amount of oil is that the amount of oil loss, in order to fall off the dipstick would probably be less than a liter which, even at half the oil consumption, would still add up. (0.2L per 1000km).

Now, that aside, big blue clouds upon startup are the big problem here. That's obviously unacceptable and requires immediate attention by the garage. If the blue smoke is continuous, it could be something serious, requiring engine dismantling. But if it's just on start up, it could be something much simpler, say, a problem with the crank case ventilation system (system to take oil vapours and burn them off without taking the oil. Sometimes the baffles can fail..)

Either way, its definitely a job for the place of purchase.

Special Circumstances

Big blue clouds on startup and clearing after a few seconds remind me of an old old mazda I had - but it seems unlikely that valve stem seals would be that bad already on the fiat.

When you described it first I pictured a little puff, but "tv advert as a joke" = yikes.

Toyotafanboi

So, went to the dealers service department today just to casually enquire was it serviced, ever. The service guy happily told me that the bonnet had never been lifted since the car rolled off the assembly line, hoping to get a booking.

So when we bought the car with 14k on it at 6 months old, it had never been serviced. Fiats recommended service interval on these cars is 30k kms which even the service guy said was excessive and that they recommend 20k kms.

I guess this is my answer. The car wasn't serviced when it was bought and it has done 17k without a change or even a top up so imo the oil must have just been worn out and burnt off. The service guy didn't want to know. I know it was only at half the recommended interval, but i think it was bad form not do an oil change or a check over before they sold it or at least warn her of the crazy long service intervals.

ba_barabus

I'd be fcuking fuming over that tbh

Renegade Mechanic

Poor form imo. Should have been serviced before being sold on. Wouldn't have killed them to replace the ageing oil. Oil would lose its thickness and clingyness after a while. I wouldn't go much over 20,000 km myself. And that's provided you do it within the year. Regardless of mileage, Id change it once the year has passed.

166man

I'd be extremely annoyed over something like that. That is extremely poor form, for the measly cost of €20 they could have changed the oil.

That's very poor TFB. I'd nearly be handing the car back to them, who knows what long term damage could be done...

MuppetCheck

If they said it was serviced and it wasn't I'd be expecting them to do it immediately. Get onto the sales guy as the service won't want to know.

Bpmull

Did you not check the service book to see if it had been done. It would have been the first thing I would have checked when buying it not that the book proves it was definitely serviced. But if it wasn't even stamped or filled out then it shows it definitely wasn't done. Poor form to lie to you about it being serviced. I hate them salesmen that tell you a load of bullsh!t that they think you want to hear. It wouldn't have cost them that much to do a basic oil change or at least tell you it wasn't due.

ShaunieVW

This is the third time I have heard this regarding no oil in the 500's Fiat are crazy to think that a car that holds 2.5l of oil to go 30000km without bring changed.

walus

ShaunieVW wrote: »

This is the third time I have heard this regarding no oil in the 500's Fiat are crazy to think that a car that holds 2.5l of oil to go 30000km without bring changed.

Agree with that statement completely. Personally I would not run the car or longer intervals than 10k kilometres.
I bought a second hand car of a dealer once. The salesman promised it was serviced, valeted etc. before sale. I collected the car and went home. As a general rule however I always do a full service to every car I buy (I'm yet to buy new). Took it to my mechanic who clearly pointed out a few things that indicated that service was long overdue - engine oil level low and black, coolant leak on the top hose, pads and disks in poor condition etc. this really got under my skin and I talked to the owner of the dealership right away. The car got a full service two weeks later at the expense of a dealership. Salesman would tell you anything to shift car. It may not necessarily be truth though. That is what I learned from this story.
The OP situation here is obviously worse. I would say that the oil is after partially evaporating and partially breaking down. I would try using an engine flush to clean the engine completely before putting in fresh lube. Otherwise get at the dealer and tell them to sort it out. After all the car is still under warranty I pressume.

Toyotafanboi

Good to see i'm not alone in my thoughts. I wasn't there when she bought the car so i don't know exactly what was discussed so i cant dispute too much.

I would like to push the issue with the salesman as, even if the service technically wasn't due, after 14k an oil change and a check over wouldn't have went astray. However mam doesn't want to cause a fuss, particularly as the first service comes in at just €95 so she's just going to get it serviced.

A proposed 30k on 2.5 liters i can't see being good for the longevity of the engine.

alias no.9

Was this a rental before you got it, 141 reg back on the market before the end of the year? Long service life is usually dependant on specific grades of fully synthetic oil, could be that the the rental company were topping it up with 10w40 semi synthetic which is smoking away.
Change the oil to the recommended grade and see how it goes.

9935452

alias no.9 wrote: »

Was this a rental before you got it, 141 reg back on the market before the end of the year? Long service life is usually dependant on specific grades of fully synthetic oil, could be that the the rental company were topping it up with 10w40 semi synthetic which is smoking away.
Change the oil to the recommended grade and see how it goes.

Thats good advice, Its most likely what happened . Plus being a hire car it probably had a hard life in its short mileage.
The fiat dealer could claim damage was done because the car was driven with the oil level low
Reading on another forum http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/archive/index.php/t-11412.html 1/2 litre will bring the level to the bottom of the dipstick.
(I also know this forum was regarding a fiat abarth 500)