Blind runner not allowed run with guide in WMM

gerard_65

http://www.the42.ie/visually-impaired-runner-womens-mini-marathon-1986440-Mar2015/

SINEAD KANE, WHO has just 5% vision in both eyes, has been told she cannot take part in this year’s Women’s Mini Marathon because her guide is a man...

ultraman1

gerard_65 wrote: »

http://www.the42.ie/visually-impaired-runner-womens-mini-marathon-1986440-Mar2015/

prob deserves a thread if its own...

Ososlo

gerard_65 wrote: »

http://www.the42.ie/visually-impaired-runner-womens-mini-marathon-1986440-Mar2015/

That is truly unbelievable. I'm really taken aback after reading that...
Definitely deserves a thread of its own.
Fcuking disgraceful.

robinph

Daft decision from the WMM.

kit3

The WMM is acting in contravention of the Equal Status Acts - for the purpose of this run her guide would not be seen as a runner but rather as an aid. It is discriminatory not to allow her this aid. Disability is one of the nine protected grounds under the Equality legislation - very straightforward imo - she should talk to the Irish Human Rights & Equality Authority for advice on how to proceed

PaulieYifter

Words fail me

Ososlo

I think anyone thinking of doing that race should boycott it.

gerard_65

I'd imagine it'll be over-turned very quickly. Someone was told 'no male entries will be accepted' but didn't understand what a guide runner does. Already comments criticising the decision on the wwm facebook page.

annapr

Sickening. And ridiculous, when men run it in drag, etc. Are they even allowed to stop men entering?

kit3

annapr wrote: »

Sickening. And ridiculous, when men run it in drag, etc. Are they even allowed to stop men entering?

Interesting question - gender discrimination - also one of the protected grounds !

rovers_runner

Womens Mini Marathon limited is a company only concerned with generating money for DSDAC.
The fact the event has taken on a life of it's own is down to the people who run it year on year and not the people with their eye on the bottom line...

They only see the euros adding up, which is surprising given they already bought that site on the bottom of the mountains two years back....

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/from-the-stands-dundrum-club-snap-up-bargain-new-home-29637648.html

menoscemo

I was waiting for the annual 'can me run the WMM' thread but this is a bit different.
Having seen how John and Sinead teamed up at the Donadea 50k, I am not surprised she deosn't want to run with another guide.

kit3

menoscemo wrote: »

I was waiting for the annual 'can me run the WMM' thread but this is a bit different.
Having seen how John and Sinead teamed up at the Donadea 50k, I am not surprised she deosn't want to run with another guide.

Agreed, and reading his blog about Donadea reinforces this

I'm genuinely disgusted by this.

I don't know what else to say really.

kit3

Would be interesting to see what the sponsors of the event think - no company likes to be associated with bad publicity

robinph

The Facebook feed for the event has been bombarded with criticism over the last couple of hours. Wonder if they will have a change of heart by the morning?

kit3

robinph wrote: »

The Facebook feed for the event has been bombarded with criticism over the last couple of hours. Wonder if they will have a change of heart by the morning?

If they have any sense they will - would have to do something special to sort this I would think

Ososlo

In a statement issued to The42 late Wednesday evening, the organisers of the Women’s Mini Marathon said:
“We are reviewing the individual case that has been flagged and we will do everything we can to find a solution that works for the athlete in question.”
Originally published at 8.40pm.

I'd tell them where to go if I was her.

Women, please tell your friends/family etc not to do this race.
Stinks....

Clearlier

It would be a hilariously bad decision if it weren't for the impact on the runner. Even in the paralympics blind female runners are permitted male guides.

Having done a bit of guiding I'm not entirely sure that I buy the need for an experienced guide but it's irrelevant as a guide is not generally considered to be a competitor and should automatically have been included.

I imagine that the organisers will claim that offering a female guide is a reasonable adjustment. It would be a misunderstanding of the reasonable adjustment guideline though IMO.

WMM need to very quickly take their finger out, say that they were wrong, apologise and rewrite their policy to ensure this kind of screw up never happens again.

Hard Worker

kit3 wrote: »

The WMM is acting in contravention of the Equal Status Acts - for the purpose of this run her guide would not be seen as a runner but rather as an aid. It is discriminatory not to allow her this aid. Disability is one of the nine protected grounds under the Equality legislation - very straightforward imo - she should talk to the Irish Human Rights & Equality Authority for advice on how to proceed

Doesn't apply in this case.
However, under the rules of competition, Sinead is quite entitled to have a male guide if she so wishes. This will be overturned in the morning I'd imagine. They don't have a choice.

RayCun

joined the chorus of posts on the facebook page and sent in an email.

Far too early I think to talk about boycotting the race or complaining to sponsors, the organisers still have time to rethink their decision.

RayCun

RayCun wrote: »

joined the chorus of posts on the facebook page and sent in an email.

Far too early I think to talk about boycotting the race or complaining to sponsors, the organisers still have time to rethink their decision.

I've done the same.

I think that the talk of boycotting is if they don't reverse their decision. Which is fair enough.

Peterx

In the spirit of the event it would be cool if a former winner could do the guiding instead of John. Assuming a former winner is available et cetera..

And in the spirit of all publicity being good publicity maybe it will help reduce the amount of dragsters as well.

Chivito550

Talk of boycotting such a large event is silly. It won't make any sort of difference, as they can fill their 40.000 slots with ease.

Bombarding the facebook page until the decision is reversed (which no doubt it will) is a far more productive way to deal with this.

ultraman1

Today fm at 9:15....

plodder

Wow. That escalated quickly. The guide was interviewed in Morning Ireland just there, and made a good case. There seemed to be signs that the WMM were relenting, but he wants the rule changed rather than an exception made. I can understand where the WMM are coming from. They want to keep the women only vibe, which is what makes it unique. Every year, there are men on here, wanting to assist their girlfriends, partners etc. But, they should be more on top of what the sport already permits.

Pherekydes

Peterx wrote: »

In the spirit of the event it would be cool if a former winner could do the guiding instead of John.

It would be cooler if Sinead could have her regular guide guide her. By far the simplest solution.

Peterx

Pherekydes wrote: »

It would be cooler if Sinead could have her regular guide guide her. By far the simplest solution.

Yes of course.
I do like the idea of a strong female role model doing the guiding in a woman's only event though.

kit3

Pherekydes wrote: »

It would be cooler if Sinead could have her regular guide guide her. By far the simplest solution.

+1 - if you read John O'Regan's blog about Donadea (can't link on the phone) there's quite a bit involved and they have this work already done in terms of trust, signals, knowing how each other works & what is needed. She shouldn't have to change guides just because he's male.

Peterx

Peterx wrote: »

Yes of course.
I do like the idea of a strong female role model doing the guiding in a woman's only event though.

Sinead can be that strong female role model.

walshb

What's the big deal? The race has rules, and the runner doesn't fit the rules. A replacement was offered. If so, then a female guide is needed.

Pherekydes

walshb wrote: »

What's the big deal? The race has rules, and the runner doesn't fit the rules. A replacement was offered. I am assuming that the sex of the guide is the rule infringement? If so, then a female guide is needed.

Under paralympic rules, a blind athlete's guide is not actually part of the competition. Male sprinters can guide blind female sprinters, as they do in the paralympics. So, there is no rule infringement. As mentioned above, it's not simply a matter of turning up on the day. Guides have to gain the trust of their blind runners.

The situation is totally unacceptable.

robinph

walshb wrote: »

What's the big deal? The race has rules, and the runner doesn't fit the rules. A replacement was offered. I am assuming that the sex of the guide is the rule infringement? If so, then a female guide is needed.

Except the gender of the guide isn't breaking the rules of the women only event as they are not a competitor, they are just a guide.


There are similarities with this and the world records for Paula Radcliffe when the IAAF cancelled her runs due to male pacemakers. There is not sufficient depth in womens running for there to be enough female pace makers or guide runners that can run fast enough. Male guides are allowed in female only races right to the top of the sport.


I can't see a single female guide runner in this Google image search:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=paralympic+guide+runners&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=d2EBVdShMZPTaPHUgdAP&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1145&bih=720

hollypink

I heard Sinead and John on todayfm just now. I understand why she would want the guide she has developed a relationship with; I can imagine it requires a lot of trust as well, because it's your safety that's at stake. I also think the offer that was made of picking a female guide for her from social media is very patronising. I don't understand why there would be any problem with this; they have both made it clear that he will be there as a guide, not a competitor.

Pherekydes

Common sense prevails:

The Women’s Mini Marathon Limited has reviewed its policy relating to visually impaired and wheelchair entrants.To preserve the female character of the event only females can enter. However, we appreciate that some visually impaired or wheelchair entrants need assistance. We have changed our policy in this respect and will welcome both male and female assistants for these entrants. Male assistants will be given a special permit to allow access, while female assistants can either enter the event or receive a special permit.

Clearlier

walshb wrote: »

What's the big deal? The race has rules, and the runner doesn't fit the rules. A replacement was offered. I am assuming that the sex of the guide is the rule infringement? If so, then a female guide is needed.

The deal is that she's confident working with a particular guide and it's not reasonable to ask her to run with a different one. A guide isn't a participant in a race and their attempt to exclude him suggests that their rules are incomplete and/or discriminatory.

robinph

ultraman1 wrote: »

Today fm at 9:15....

Got a link to the audio by any chance?

walshb

Ok, bend the rules for one athlete. Problem solved. It's a WMM. It's for women, and women only. As mentioned by a previous poster there are men on here who are wanting to compete in it. Ridiculous. F all this equal rights nonsense. This is a race for women and created for women. Let them have it. The organizers are not disqualifying her from competing. They have offered her the choice to get a female. Whether or not she has built up a relationship with a male has nothing to do with the race organizers. If she wants to compete then build up a relationship with a female guide.

Post 35 ends this! Maybe common sense. Not necessarily.
BTW, the guide is part of the race. He is directly assisting a competitor. Like it or not that makes him part of the race, or part of her race!

sydthebeat

walshb wrote: »

Ok, bend the rules for one athlete. Problem solved. It's a WMM. It's for women, and women only. As mentioned by a previous poster there are men on here who are wanting to compete in it. Ridiculous. F all this equal rights nonsense. This is a race for women and created for women. Let them have it. The organizers are not disqualifying her from competing. They have offered her the choice to get a female. Whether or not she has built up a relationship with a male has nothing to do with the race organizers. If she wants to compete then build up a relationship with a female guide.

the guide isnt an athelete, hes the guide.

if its good enough for the olympics, it should be good enough for a little amateur race such as the WMM

Pherekydes

Read post #35, Walshy. They've changed their shortsighted (ahem) policy.

There's no reason for anyone to change their guide for one race.

walshb

sydthebeat wrote: »

the guide isnt an athelete, hes the guide.

if its good enough for the olympics, it should be good enough for a little amateur race such as the WMM

Olympics and other events have nothing to do with this. This is the WMM, and they have their guidelines and rules. End of. I never said he was an athlete!

Clearlier

walshb wrote: »

Post 35 ends this! Maybe common sense. Not necessarily.
BTW, the guide is part of the race. He is directly assisting a competitor. Like it or not that makes him part of the race.

Whether it's common or not is open to question but it's certainly sensible. This is as basic as providing a wheelchair access into a building.

walshb

Pherekydes wrote: »

Read post #35, Walshy. They've changed their shortsighted (ahem) policy.

.

I read it. My post above yours reflects this.

walshb

Clearlier wrote: »

Whether it's common or not is open to question but it's certainly sensible. This is as basic as providing a ramp into a building so that a wheelchair user can access it.

No, it's not the same!

robinph

walshb wrote: »

Ok, bend the rules for one athlete. Problem solved. It's a WMM. It's for women, and women only. As mentioned by a previous poster there are men on here who are wanting to compete in it. Ridiculous. F all this equal rights nonsense. This is a race for women and created for women. Let them have it. The organizers are not disqualifying her from competing. They have offered her the choice to get a female. Whether or not she has built up a relationship with a male has nothing to do with the race organizers. If she wants to compete then build up a relationship with a female guide.

Post 35 ends this!

It is not a case of needing the WMM to bend the rules, it is needing them to follow the rules. The guide is a guide, not a competitor. They were disqualifying her from competing as in order for her to compete she requires the assistance of her own guide. This is not something that you just pick anyone for.

Would be like requiring people to leave their own guide dog behind, and just pick a random untrained dog off the street and expect them to perform the same role.

kit3

walshb wrote: »

Ok, bend the rules for one athlete. Problem solved. It's a WMM. It's for women, and women only. As mentioned by a previous poster there are men on here who are wanting to compete in it. Ridiculous. F all this equal rights nonsense. This is a race for women and created for women. Let them have it. The organizers are not disqualifying her from competing. They have offered her the choice to get a female. Whether or not she has built up a relationship with a male has nothing to do with the race organizers. If she wants to compete then build up a relationship with a female guide.

Post 35 ends this! Maybe common sense. Not necessarily.
BTW, the guide is part of the race. He is directly assisting a competitor. Like it or not that makes him part of the race, or part of her race!

Not bending, changing - can't really believe you don't see the necessity for equal rights - hope this is partly stirring (if not, I hope you never get to be a dictator )

Clearlier

walshb wrote: »

No, it's not the same!

It really is. It's about equality of opportunity.

eviltwin

walshb wrote: »

Olympics and other events have nothing to do with this. This is the WMM, and they have their guidelines and rules. End of. I never said he was an athlete!

Where is the harm? He's not competing. I don't think anyone who is competing would have a problem with it. She shouldn't be excluded just for having a male guide.

walshb

kit3 wrote: »

Not bending, changing - can't really believe you don't see the necessity for equal rights - hope this is partly stirring (if not, I hope you never get to be a dictator )

Equal rights are very important, but that doesn't mean I have to agree in all cases, or all enactments/proposals. For example: There are gyms where ladies have a room or area that is labeled ladies only. I don't agree that men have the equal right to gain access and use it. If the gym want that area/room to be for ladies then that is their right.

kit3

Clearlier wrote: »

It really is. It's about equality of opportunity.

+1 and it's also about accessibility

walshb

eviltwin wrote: »

Where is the harm? He's not competing. I don't think anyone who is competing would have a problem with it. She shouldn't be excluded just for having a male guide.

He is involved and assisting. He is male. The WMM is a women's only event. They offered a female guide. That should have been the end of it. Apply the rule across the board without exceptions. Anyone entering the event has to be female, and anyone wanting assassinate during the race has to have a female assistant. Couldn't be simpler.