Now Ye're Talking - To an Equine Worker

Dav

It's Cheltenham Festival week. If, like me, you don't know anything about horses but you'll occasionally allow yourself to be conned into having a flutter, you might find yourself wondering about the people behind the trade and who are working to make things like Cheltenham happen.

Boardsie sup_dude is here to answer some of your questions (but they don't have any tips ) on the equine industry.

Liam McPoyle

Hello!

What section / area do you work in?

What would you say to people that say horse racing is cruel and cite the Grand National as an example for fatalities in horses?

Why do you think Irish trainers & jockies have been so successful?

Whats the hardest part of your day?

Ave Sodalis

Business Cat wrote: »

Hello!

What section / area do you work in?

What would you say to people that say horse racing is cruel and cite the Grand National as an example for fatalities in horses?

Why do you think Irish trainers & jockies have been so successful?

Whats the hardest part of your day?

Hi!

I've mainly spent most of my time breaking and schooling young horses and not so young horses and ponies that need reschooling (which is basically just training). I've also spent some time in international show-jumping yards and various other yards. However, I've dabbled in most things and experienced nearly everything except Western.

There are some cruel elements to it which I wouldn't mind seeing go but overall, it's not as bad as some people think it is. A lot of those horses get treated better than people. In terms of the Grand National, well it's a long race and yes, there are fatalities. Many use the height of the fences as the cause but if the fences were lower, the horses would be running faster (although, as far as I'm aware, they have been lowered). I would personally consider a lack of adequate training as a bigger factor than the actual race.

Some say it's bred into us We're not sure. Irish horse people in general are well respected globally. For jockeys, we have a great training programme, we have support for kids who want to gain experience, we have some of the best horses in the world and some of the toughest people. Watching youngsters, not just young jockey's but in other disciplines too, makes you realise that we have very talented people in this country. Why that is, I couldn't tell you for sure but I'd imagine it's due to mindset.

At the moment, I'm in college studying Equine Science so I would have to say it's making sense of my FYP But in a general working day, the hardest would probably be just the hours. Unfortunately, there's a high level of unacknowledged abuse of yard staff. In racing, it's not as bad. In other disciplines, it can get tough.

Liam McPoyle

sup_dude wrote: »

Unfortunately, there's a high level of unacknowledged abuse of yard staff. In racing, it's not as bad. In other disciplines, it can get tough.

Can you elaborate?

eviltwin

What happens to horses once they retire or if the younger ones who aren't good enough to race?

Ave Sodalis

Business Cat wrote: »

Can you elaborate?

Take one of the yards I worked in for example. I was working 70-100 hours a week of very intensive physical work. I wasn't getting paid except accommodation on site. I came in and fell asleep every day and after 3 months, I stopped being able to open my hands and was nearly hospitalised due to exhaustion. You're expected to do everything quickly, and to do it perfectly so there's a lot of pressure. I had to have two weeks off due to my hands but I was refused this. Ended up dropping something important and couldn't hold onto a horse a few days later and was essentially fired. The girl I was working with broke her back and did end up in hospital. The person who owned the yard asked me how that could possibly be bad enough to warrant going to hospital.
A friend of mine worked in another yard and had worse hours (though a bigger team so less intensive). He was in at 7am, worked until 10pm and had to get up around 2am as well to check on horses. Also no pay.

There's a very high rate of staff turn over for yards. Those that are lucky enough to get into a nice one, tend to stay there so they're rarely hiring. Pay is usually accommodation and horse boarding. People can get food and on occassion, a small wage on top of it but the vast majority aren't getting paid minimum wage. We have no union (racing do, which is why they aren't as bad though still not great) and there's nobody to really complain to because nobody really cares or knows. Most staff are too tired to have the energy to pursue it and would be homeless if they lost their job. Grooms are really just there to be run into the ground and tossed aside when they're useless in a lot of places (Not all, but a lot. May even be majority).

This isn't an Irish thing alone though, it's really a world wide problem.

Ave Sodalis

eviltwin wrote: »

What happens to horses once they retire or if the younger ones who aren't good enough to race?

There's several options. Many get rehomed and reschooled to do different disciplines. Young, fast thoroughbreds (if they have a jump) are good for eventing where speed over obstacles is important. Some get schooled for general riding horses. Some retired horses get retrained into showing and there's even a class in the RDS Dublin Horse Show (the biggest in Ireland and one of the major world shows) for Racehorse to Riding Horses. Some go out to a field to live out the rest of its days with a companion horse. Some go into stud work if they had good enough genes to pass on. Some get PTS.

Lisha

Hi sup dude.

Given what you've said in the post above about long harsh working hrs with little or no pay, do you think working with horses is more of a vocation than a job?

The horse community seems to be very close with people helping each other as needed. It must be a small world especially in Ireland.
Is this a blessing or a curse?

How prevalent is cruelty to horses? Is there some people you would prefer never to be left in charge of animals ?

Cookie_Monster

sup_dude wrote: »

Unfortunately, there's a high level of unacknowledged abuse of yard staff. In racing, it's not as bad.

So why does the Working Time Directive not apply?

Ave Sodalis

Lisha wrote: »

Hi sup dude.

Given what you've said in the post above about long harsh working hrs with little or no pay, do you think working with horses is more of a vocation than a job?

The horse community seems to be very close with people helping each other as needed. It must be a small world especially in Ireland.
Is this a blessing or a curse?

How prevalent is cruelty to horses? Is there some people you would prefer never to be left in charge of animals ?

It is and it isn't. I mean, I love horses but there's no way would I put up with those working conditions again. Some people, it's all they do; jumping from yard to yard, travelling the world. Many of these people have funds behind them to do that, and have no other commitments. It has the potential to be a great job, if employment laws were actually enforced. However, people take advantage of the fact that the job is never going to have strict hours due to its nature and make you work long hours anyway. "Working student" also has a part to play in it not really being a great job.

Yeah, it's quite small but it's also quite tiered. There's people at the top, riding and producing for the country all the way down to just a person who owns a pony they get on every so often, or the farmer who bought a few for herd numbers. Generally, these tiers are quite seperate from eachother. The different disciplines are quite seperate too, with racing being considered a different sport to sport horses (with seperate governing bodies). It is a blessing and a curse. Everyone knows everyone, which may or may not be a good thing, depending on where you stand

Not very prevalent but at the same time, the fact it exists is too much for my liking. There are certain people more prone to it that others and I would prefer if they didn't have them. I've also met a few people who should never own a horse. For the most part though, it's usually down to ignorance of the way a horse works and I think my course has made me more sensitive to that.

Ave Sodalis

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So why does the Working Time Directive not apply?

I'm not sure of the exact reason but I'd imagine it's a mix of several things. Staff work long long hours with usually only one day off a week, which is normally spent sleeping. Sometimes, they don't even get a day off a week. Nobody really has much time or energy to deal with putting in a complaint.

Also, like I said in the previous post, everyone knows everyone within tiers. Putting a complaint in about one person may mean you never get a job as a groom again because they could turn around and say you weren't able to handle the work.

Most grooms and staff aren't registered either or weren't given a contract to sign so owners can just turn around and say they never employed anyone. And most staff are looking for references so they stay quiet.

I would love to set up a union but I just don't have the time at the moment.

Senna

Is breaking horses not a skill that can be handsomely rewarded for, I know of someone who stuck with that job for years because of the money, but left ultimately because of the constant danger.

KKkitty

A brother of mine is a former jockey turned trainer so obviously knows a good horse when he sees it. What makes a good horse as far as your concerned and would you back horses yourself?

Ave Sodalis

Senna wrote: »

Is breaking horses not a skill that can be handsomely rewarded for, I know of someone who stuck with that job for years because of the money, but left ultimately because of the constant danger.

It's more of a personal reward than anything. It takes a lot of time and patience to do it right and although a lot of horses are just handed in for two months to be broken, training really starts from when they're foals. However, it's a great feeling when they finally learn something correctly. It is a dangerous job though, especially if you're stuck for time and have to speed things up a bit. Some horses, no matter how slowly you take it, are going to buck with you on them. They're just more nervous than others. Each have their own personality. It is something that's more suited to younger people though, because you can expect to be sitting on the ground on occasion. Since it's usually done in teams though, an experienced older person on the ground is often very useful.

KKkitty wrote: »

A brother of mine is a former jockey turned trainer so obviously knows a good horse when he sees it. What makes a good horse as far as your concerned and would you back horses yourself?

Do you mean a good horse in terms of Thoroughbreds and betting? Or a good horse in terms of what I would buy tomorrow?

Backing also has two meanings here too, is it in terms of breaking or in terms of betting?

GLaDOS

What do you think of cloning horses for breeding purposes, as seen here?

The article states cloning of racehorses is banned, why racehorses but not other disciplines?

One eyed Jack

Hi sup dude,

This AMA I'm really interested in because I know virtually nothing of the equine industry, but I have a couple of questions if that's ok?

You mentioned a bit already about injuries in training horses and having been trampled by a horse as a child myself at one stage, I'm just wondering have you ever had any serious injuries or do you literally just get back up on the horse again after you fall off?

What actually got you interested in horses and studying equine science?

You mentioned earlier that you were involved in programmes with young people, have you ever been involved in teaching adults to ride horses?

(I think horses are a beautiful animal to look at, but I'm afraid of my life to go near them, but I'd still love to learn how to ride a horse )

And finally, I dunno if you're comfortable name dropping, but have you met anyone well known to most people like JP McManus, Ted or Ruby Walsh, etc?

You've mentioned some of the negatives of the industry, but is it an industry you would actually recommend to young people or encourage them to try, or is it a career you'd have to be coming from an equine background to really understand it?


Sorry about all the questions, feel free to skip over any or whatever

Ave Sodalis

ScienceNerd wrote: »

What do you think of cloning horses for breeding purposes, as seen here?

The article states cloning of racehorses is banned, why racehorses but not other disciplines?

I think, especially in terms of Cruising, that it's an awful idea. Maybe for mares, since they can only get pregnant once but for stallions, they can have 100 coverings in one season. Cruising was, in my opinion, overbred already. Adding not one, but two more of him is going to mess up the diversity of horses we have, especially since we're such a small island. Unless the owners show more restraint (unlikely since there's two), then I don't think it's going to be a great idea.

Racehorse breeding is quite traditional. All mares are taken to the stallions and the stallions are flown all over the world. Artificial Insemination is banned too, so I'm not really surprised cloning is.

Ave Sodalis

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Hi sup dude,

This AMA I'm really interested in because I know virtually nothing of the equine industry, but I have a couple of questions if that's ok?

You mentioned a bit already about injuries in training horses and having been trampled by a horse as a child myself at one stage, I'm just wondering have you ever had any serious injuries or do you literally just get back up on the horse again after you fall off?

What actually got you interested in horses and studying equine science?

You mentioned earlier that you were involved in programmes with young people, have you ever been involved in teaching adults to ride horses?

(I think horses are a beautiful animal to look at, but I'm afraid of my life to go near them, but I'd still love to learn how to ride a horse )

And finally, I dunno if you're comfortable name dropping, but have you met anyone well known to most people like JP McManus, Ted or Ruby Walsh, etc?

You've mentioned some of the negatives of the industry, but is it an industry you would actually recommend to young people or encourage them to try, or is it a career you'd have to be coming from an equine background to really understand it?


Sorry about all the questions, feel free to skip over any or whatever

Ask away! The more the merrier!

My more serious injuries actually happened on the ground but I've never had a very serious injury. One was getting my hand trapped between a horse's head and the stable doorframe and doing a fair bit of damage. Didn't go to the hospital until that night though. I just stuck a bit of ice on it once I regained consciousness.
Another was getting a kick. That only happened because it was when I was exhausted. I didn't even realise I had been kicked. I heard a massive bang and looked around the place, wondering if it was from the foals in the stable beside the one I was in. Took a step forward to go check on them and then realised what had actually happened.
Another was a fall. The only one I didn't get back on afterwards and I still have the scar on my hip. To be honest though, in 10 years, that's not bad. Most of the time I just hop back on again. Same with most people. Horses are unpredicatable at times and people are going to fall off. That's a given. There's a saying that it takes 7 falls to make a rider. The vast majority of the time, it doesn't even hurt, it's just an inconvience.

To be honest, I thought I'd go get some lessons with some confirmation money I had and never stopped after that. It's one of those things that hooks you or it doesn't.

I have taught one adult, at her request. I'm not a qualified instructor though, so I can't teach full lessons. However, this adult was a functioning autistic and was stuggling to find an instructor she liked. I was recommended to her and she stayed for a few months before deciding to find another hobby but such was the nature of her autism.

You should! Most horses are quiet, especially the school horses. They'll just plod along, usually following the person leading them. Some might have some funny habits and some know it's a beginner on their back so be stubborn though. Any of the "wilder" ones, you usually choose to put yourself in that situation.

Not in the racing world. In the sport horse world, I've met and worked for a few (I'll not name drop here since I was talking about working conditions) but since I go to the Dublin Horse Show every year, you're bound to find one or two of the top riders having a look around the stalls.

I would definitely recommend it because it becomes more than just a hobby. It really is a lifestyle. The negatives are mostly just in the grooming world but you don't have to be a groom. I'm hoping (funding dependent) on going on to do animal physio after this year. It's not something you need to have a background in horses to do. I didn't. None of my family keep or like horses. I got a helmet and a pair of boots as a present and bar a few lessons, that's really all the money I spent on it, so it's not a rich person's sport either (unless you intend to buy a top horse). I come from a broke background. I was just lucky enough that there was a blind man who ran a yard who was looking for some help and I've worked there since and gained all the experience I needed.

KKkitty

Meant can you tell just by watching a horse if it's a future winner of races. Do you gamble now and again?

Vojera

You mentioned above that mares can only be bred from once. Why is that? Is it a welfare thing or are there other reasons?

Is there a single horse that you've broken that you're particularly proud of? Perhaps one with a poor temperament, etc.?

Ave Sodalis

KKkitty wrote: »

Meant can you tell just by watching a horse if it's a future winner of races. Do you gamble now and again?

Personally, I wouldn't consider myself an expert with racehorses and there's a lot more at play that just watching a horse. Knowing its history, breeding, owners, training etc is just as important and to be honest, I wouldn't have enough interest to check all these things up. I can tell if a horse has a good conformation or not, or a good walk etc but that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to win the race. Look at Annie Power. She was flying it during that race on Tuesday but ended up on her nose over the last fence.

Nope, I don't gamble at all

Vojera wrote: »

You mentioned above that mares can only be bred from once. Why is that? Is it a welfare thing or are there other reasons?

Is there a single horse that you've broken that you're particularly proud of? Perhaps one with a poor temperament, etc.?

I meant once a season, sorry. A mare's gestation lasts about 11 months or so. A stallion could have 50 offspring during one season.

Um, kinda. It's been mostly proud moments and horses that I get on well with so I'd have a certain bias towards. One of the first ponies I got to ride was... special. No idea what happened to her but she would take random fits of crazy. She either liked you or she didn't. If she didn't like you, you could not go anywhere near her. If she did, most of the time you could go near her. I got on well with her, better than most and took her out to competitions and around the place. She would take notions that something she was very used to was suddenly extremely scarey and would take off. She would take random notions that she disliked you on a particular day, even if she would usually like you. The guy that owned her got pinned between her and a wall when she decided she didn't like him and had to wrap himself around her to stop her kicks from having too much power. But I still got on well with her and could handle her so I guess I'm proud of that.
There was also this cob I rode, he was morbidly obese and had barely anything done with him but he was so honest that I was proud of everything he did. First time in a forest, he canter about as happy as can be, same with the first time on the neach and the first time jumping him. He loved it and even when he was afraid of something, he trusted me enough to do it anyway just because I was asking him to. He reminded me of the dog out of Up.
But mostly, it's just moments such as splashing in water they were jumping out of five minutes before, going past a car that was very scary, understanding that they don't need to charge off when moving up a pace, or that pressure on the reins means stop. Stuff like that more so than a horse in particular.