Landlord's Apt in Receivership - Lease expired end of Jan

CaoimheSquee

Hi Folks,

So I know mostly the deal with receiverships; we got the dreaded letter last night and are currently putting together what they have asked for. The conversation with the landlord was hopeful (mostly in that she at least is in communication), she is visiting her solicitor today and will call us after.
My feeling though is once this road has started that myself and my partner moving out is a given eventuality and best done sooner rather than later, however we have some concerns.

1) Whereabouts of our deposit. This we will establish today hopefully. It was paid to a letting agent who acted on behalf of landlord to source tenants but did and do not manage it, that is and was all directly with landlord. We paid by bank draft made out to agency and also would have received receipt. Hopefully this is all in our favour if it happens it is an issue.

2) The Lease. This is where I really need your help. The lease was up the very end of Jan and we met with landlord at apartment in December where she carried out inspection and we all agreed were happy to stay on. However a new lease was never done up or signed. What position does that leave us in?

Thanks in advance.

CaoimheSquee

Also, it doesn't look like our tenancy is registered with PRTB

gaius c

2) Provided you have been there at least 6 months (almost certain), you acquire part 4 tenancy rights. These are in addition to rights conferred by a lease. So having no lease means you still have part 4 rights. Having a lease means you have "lease rights" in addition to part 4 rights. The landlord is only allowed to terminate the lease for a limited number of reasons and selling the property is one of them.

Pay attention to the notice periods required. The longer you are in the property, the longer a notice period you or the landlord must give if either of you wishes to terminate the tenancy.

The bit you need to be careful of is that your contract is between the landlord and yourself. The bank are not party to this and are not bound by it's terms. Apparently they could tell you to vacate next week but in practice, they are being relatively flexible.

1) If the landlord does not have the resoures to pay the mortgage, it would be reasonable to assume that your deposit is at risk. Talk to him about this ASAP. The deposit is his responsibility, not the banks.

spaceHopper

Sounds like you have part 4 tenancy now you have an automatic 4 year lease an can only be asked to move is you break the terms of the lease, the LL want's it for themselves or a direct family member or are selling it or renovating it.

If the receiver want's to sell it then you will have to leave other than that you should be fine. Also the receiver is obliged to act for the back, if they kick you out then the rent isn't going onto the mortgage and the LL would not be responsible for it. Till they sell it they will want you there as long as possible. Be firm with them about the deposit.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html

CaoimheSquee

Thank you so much gaius_c, that is most helpful.
The understanding is that once landlord meets with solicitor today we will all know the extent of the financial problems.

My biggest fear is that the bank comes along and tells us to get out and gives us 7 days notices or something like that so I wanted to establish if that Part IV tenancy did actually apply to us. We are there almost 14 months so it would be clear it does. From my brief reading up on this I understand banks are bound by the property laws also and would only have power to terminate a tenancy early with a court order which would be rather rare.

Again, many thanks.

CaoimheSquee

And spacehopper, thanks so much. A bit f clarity on it all is great. I was just getting so bogged down in links and leaflets last night!

goz83

If your only real concern is the deposit, assuming it is one months rent, you could always forego the final month rent if it is expected to be an issue. If you have contact with the LL and there is a decent relationship, you should be ok. Its not usually something i would agree with, but the circumstances are a bit messy here.

The LL doesnt appear to be in a position to offer another lease term at this time. How long have you been renting where you are? You may have part 4 tenancy in place, which is just fine in most cases.nsomeone with more knowledge will answer your questions im sure.

CaoimheSquee

I'd prefer not go down route of with holding rent though and before thinking about that try and establish where it is and that it is safe (hopeful I know). However it goes without saying we will be open with landlord, she has always been at the end of the phone or email to help and is a genuinely lovely lady. In that we are very lucky so I really want to make sure all is done openly and fairly.

Sun in Capri

Despite your best intentions towards the LL, you should have the discussion about the deposit asap with the LL, and start looking for a new place to live. A friend ended up in the same situation and did not get their deposit back. They were given a couple of weeks to vacate the property.

MarkAnthony

You really need to get proper legal advice, no one really knows the legalities of this as, AFAIK, it's not been tested yet.

Ref the deposit, I'd hold back a months rent and move out. Of course have a nice wad of cash on inspection day and distribute it as required for any damages, but you're almost certainly going to have to resort to self help.

The problem with a receiver is the dynamic, they generally don't have liability for their actions (unless agreed otherwise) as they're an agent for the person that owns the property (no I do mean that, not the bank - it's an odd dynamic).

Mods sorry if this crosses the line, please delete it if you feel it does.

The_Morrigan

Folks, many of you are here a long time and know full well that any advice that encourages a breach of the RTA 2004 is against the charter.
Telling the OP to withhold rent is not acceptable, never has and never will be.

Cut it out.

CaoimheSquee

Yikes having two weeks to go, along with the deposit being gone is our worst nightmare. Legally, we should really be entitled to the 42 days.

We have been advised consistently to put our rent aside for this month before our position is established so I really am going to have to start listening to that!

Agreed re the deposit, we need to clarify this ASAP. The letting agent we paid it to has done up a letter for us to confirm our payment to them and the forwarding of our payment to landlord by them.

Landlord met solicitor yesterday, i think if we haven't been able to get her by this afternoon we need to start making our moves to liaise with receiver.

But both of us are pretty much just resigned to finding another place and have already started looking, tis a pity but trying to find the positives. The place we have isn't perfect for us and we mainly stayed because of such good relationship with landlord as it was such a huge thing to have someone so helpful and well, human to deal with. However, I think there are a few lessons to be learned in all of this!

It really has dawned on me now from talking to people how COMMON this has become. I have rented on and off the last 15 years and this is just not something that one would worry about.

CaoimheSquee

Well the place is to be sold. Landlord has advised and accepted all rent is to be paid to receiver.
Receiver contact need to "check with colleagues" over our deposit.
We have put the foot down in that we will not allow estate agents to start arriving for valuations and inspections until we get some guarantees over deposit and notice.

I understand the landlord has had her life pulled apart but this is such an intrusion on people who have just been paying rent and living somewhere in good faith and quite upsetting and frankly, over talking to a handful of people over the last few days it is happening all over the place.

Also, there is bugger all out there!

The_Morrigan

CaoimheSquee wrote: »

Well the place is to be sold. Landlord has advised and accepted all rent is to be paid to receiver.
Receiver contact need to "check with colleagues" over our deposit.
We have put the foot down in that we will not allow estate agents to start arriving for valuations and inspections until we get some guarantees over deposit and notice.

I understand the landlord has had her life pulled apart but this is such an intrusion on people who have just been paying rent and living somewhere in good faith and quite upsetting and frankly, over talking to a handful of people over the last few days it is happening all over the place.

Also, there is bugger all out there!

The receiver is not responsible for your deposit, the landlord is.

CaoimheSquee

But is the receiver not effectively our landlord now?
We shall discuss it with landlord too of course but either way I am not hopeful at all.

Absolutely gutted by the whole thing I have to say.

The_Morrigan

CaoimheSquee wrote: »

But is the receiver not effectively our landlord now?
We shall discuss it with landlord too of course but either way I am not hopeful at all.

Absolutely gutted by the whole thing I have to say.

The receiver takes over some obligations of the landlord, but not all.

Private tenancies and receivership
If your landlord’s mortgage is in arrears and the mortgage lender has appointed a receiver, you must pay the rent to the receiver, but it is the landlord who remains legally responsible for matters such as returning your deposits. The receiver may arrange for repairs to be carried out, but it is unclear whether the receiver is required to do this or whether the receiver takes on any of the responsibilities of a landlord.

Possible changes to the law are being explored in order to provide more clarity for private tenants whose homes are put into receivership.

Read more in Banking and Payments Federation Ireland’s Residential Tenant’s Guide to Receivership and in Threshold’s tips for tenants when a property is in receivership (pdf).

Tax issues

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/tenants_rights_and_obligations.html#lca76f

The landlord is responsible for the deposit, there has never been any doubt about that since receivers started to be appointed to rental properties.

CaoimheSquee

Ok, apologies that was something I missed.
Well that is who we shall have to focus on taking it up with. Thanks

MarkAnthony

CaoimheSquee wrote: »

But is the receiver not effectively our landlord now?
We shall discuss it with landlord too of course but either way I am not hopeful at all.

Absolutely gutted by the whole thing I have to say.

It's very important to note that it's not how it works.

Receivers in this context are slightly different but a receiver is an agent of the company. Lets say I make widgets and I want to buy a new widget machine; I approach a bank and the bank gives me a loan. The debenture will provide that should I default a receiver will come in and ensure the bank is paid, probably by selling my widget making machine. The business remains operational and the directors are still liable for their obligations.

In this situation the directors are replaced with the landlord. The only asset of the 'company' in this case is your home. The landlord remains responsible for all the obligations under the lease, deposit, upkeep etc. The receiver collects the rent and disposes of the property.

It's not an ideal system is putting it somewhat mildly. Contact FLAC or Threshold and get some proper advice.

CaoimheSquee

Thanks again folks. What a mess.

CaoimheSquee

Thanks again folks. What a mess.
I must say again though the help here has been invaluable.

gaius c

Morrigan is correct. You pay your rent to the receiver but the responsibility for returning your deposit lies with the landlord.
Get onto them asap.

unklerosco

We're in the same situation, slightly different as we still have just under 3 years left on our lease. Our plan was to buy the house but it's all gone pete tong. You end up in limbo, we've been like this since last November now and have found it to be pretty damn stressful.. From what I can see knowone seems to know were we stand and I don't think anyone will until someone takes a case for a tennant. We had hoped to buy the house we're in but after 5 months of asking we still don't know what the asking price is! It's meant to be going on the market on Monday and even the auctioneer doesn't know the asking price... All fun and games, especially when you've a 4 week old baby and the threat of eviction looming over you.