What species native to Ireland are fast growing ?

Big Davey

I found this video very interesting.
Do any of the professional people on this forum disagree with this man ?
He seems to talk a lot of sense on biodiversity.
http://youtu.be/7l7ebAPXFKg

Capercaillie

Big Davey wrote: »

I found this video very interesting.
Do any of the professional people on this forum disagree with this man ?
He seems to talk a lot of sense on biodiversity.

Sitka Spruce mono-cultures have destroyed the biodiversity of the Irish uplands.

Big Davey

Capercaillie wrote: »

Sitka Spruce mono-cultures have destroyed the biodiversity of the Irish uplands.

It certainly looks that way.

Birdnuts

Willow and Ash in the right places have impressive growth rates in this country.

Effects

I recently had a meeting with a forestry adviser. He seemed to say sitka spruce was the only option to give me any return in the future.

SILVAMAN

Big Davey wrote: »

I found this video very interesting.
Do any of the professional people on this forum disagree with this man ?
He seems to talk a lot of sense on biodiversity.
http://youtu.be/7l7ebAPXFKg

I felt nauseated listing to that guy.
The first stika spruce sent to these islands was by plant collector David Douglas in the 1830s and it was planted in Curraghmore Co.Waterford. It is still there and the size of the tree bears no relation to the cropped Sitka that are harvested each year.
He refers to the Irish landscape and its apparent destruction by Sitka-that's a highly subjective point of view. The same argument can be made of anything that man puts on the land be it roads, houses or wind turbines-ultimately it's all in the eye of the beholder.
The reason SS is so successful is due to a number of factors:
1. It has a relatively low nutrient demand.
2. The land available for initial afforestation in Ireland tended to be marginal for agriculture and carried no trees save perhaps the occasional sally bush or stunted thorn.
3.SS tolerates exposure extremely well. Most other trees including native trees cannot grow properly on exposed sites.
4.Broadleaves such as Oak and Ash do best on the finest soils which are currently underagriculture. Can one seriously expect people to grow trees on sites unsuited to them, and in theprocess produce an inferior product?
5. The native genetic pool of broadleaves is questionable, with crooked stems. Why? The best trees were in olden times used and the rubbish trees left.

There are trials under way aimed at producing trees of better form-Ellen O'Connor of Teagasc has promising trials of improved birch under-way and some will be available for sale next year.
The widespread planting has facilitated the revival and spread of out native pine marten, and as a consequence, it now preys on the non-native grey squirrel which adversely affects the native red squirrel. Young sitka plantations provide cover for many birds and are a favourite hunting ground of the hen harrier.
There has to be more attention to diversifying species, especially because of the huge risk of disease. Our native tree list is tiny and not sustainable for forestry. The aim should be to use alder birch and willow to protect our floodplains and waterways. Sitka should remain the main wood producer, but western red cedar, scots pine(native tree) and tsuga ought to be more widely planted. Spruce plantations ought to be thinned more heavily and earlier to facilitate light entry thereby promoting a ground layer, and large areas of birch and mountain ash and hazel ought to be established to facilitate the spread of these trees which will then occupy these spaces created within the thinned forest plantations. Heavily thinned conifer plantations are superb habitat for woodcock, and woodpecker is spreading westwards due to the increased forest cover. Red squirrel also eat spruce seed, and the forests facilitate the spread of deer.
We ought to augment our native broadleaves with more broadleaves, particularly those in Britain such as hornbeam and lime. Bear in mind that the purists would also demand the removal of beech and sycamore from Ireland...imagine the landscape change then. It is worth noting that sycamore accounts for 60% of the nectar gathered in Europe by bees for honey production.
This social scientist and planner Haughton clearly has no concept of what forestry entails-it's not all black and white. Some mistakes have been made, but huge progress too, and many Forest Service Inspectors and staff ought to be commended for slowly changing forestry and it is also up to the registered foresters to thoughtfully design plantations to something other than SS/Larch with 3 rows of birch around the edges, and the landowner ought to accept that perhaps 10% of the plantation ought to be regarded as a long term biodiverse and self sustaining unit.
I'll say no more on this-we all understand people's right to freedom of expression, but Haughton clearly does not understand the subject.

Birdnuts

SILVAMAN wrote: »

I felt nauseated listing to that guy.
The first stika spruce sent to these islands was by plant collector David Douglas in the 1830s and it was planted in Curraghmore Co.Waterford. It is still there and the size of the tree bears no relation to the cropped Sitka that are harvested each year.
He refers to the Irish landscape and its apparent destruction by Sitka-that's a highly subjective point of view. The same argument can be made of anything that man puts on the land be it roads, houses or wind turbines-ultimately it's all in the eye of the beholder.
The reason SS is so successful is due to a number of factors:
1. It has a relatively low nutrient demand.
2. The land available for initial afforestation in Ireland tended to be marginal for agriculture and carried no trees save perhaps the occasional sally bush or stunted thorn.
3.SS tolerates exposure extremely well. Most other trees including native trees cannot grow properly on exposed sites.
4.Broadleaves such as Oak and Ash do best on the finest soils which are currently underagriculture. Can one seriously expect people to grow trees on sites unsuited to them, and in theprocess produce an inferior product?
5. The native genetic pool of broadleaves is questionable, with crooked stems. Why? The best trees were in olden times used and the rubbish trees left.

There are trials under way aimed at producing trees of better form-Ellen O'Connor of Teagasc has promising trials of improved birch under-way and some will be available for sale next year.
The widespread planting has facilitated the revival and spread of out native pine marten, and as a consequence, it now preys on the non-native grey squirrel which adversely affects the native red squirrel. Young sitka plantations provide cover for many birds and are a favourite hunting ground of the hen harrier.
There has to be more attention to diversifying species, especially because of the huge risk of disease. Our native tree list is tiny and not sustainable for forestry. The aim should be to use alder birch and willow to protect our floodplains and waterways. Sitka should remain the main wood producer, but western red cedar, scots pine(native tree) and tsuga ought to be more widely planted. Spruce plantations ought to be thinned more heavily and earlier to facilitate light entry thereby promoting a ground layer, and large areas of birch and mountain ash and hazel ought to be established to facilitate the spread of these trees which will then occupy these spaces created within the thinned forest plantations. Heavily thinned conifer plantations are superb habitat for woodcock, and woodpecker is spreading westwards due to the increased forest cover. Red squirrel also eat spruce seed, and the forests facilitate the spread of deer.
We ought to augment our native broadleaves with more broadleaves, particularly those in Britain such as hornbeam and lime. Bear in mind that the purists would also demand the removal of beech and sycamore from Ireland...imagine the landscape change then. It is worth noting that sycamore accounts for 60% of the nectar gathered in Europe by bees for honey production.
This social scientist and planner Haughton clearly has no concept of what forestry entails-it's not all black and white. Some mistakes have been made, but huge progress too, and many Forest Service Inspectors and staff ought to be commended for slowly changing forestry and it is also up to the registered foresters to thoughtfully design plantations to something other than SS/Larch with 3 rows of birch around the edges, and the landowner ought to accept that perhaps 10% of the plantation ought to be regarded as a long term biodiverse and self sustaining unit.
I'll say no more on this-we all understand people's right to freedom of expression, but Haughton clearly does not understand the subject.

I take you point on a lot of that but the standard of many SS plantations in the country is poor to say the least(and I include Coillte efforts here too).Both in outputs and management. Also issues with planting in catchments that are sensitive to acidification which has serious implications for game fisheries. We are told that Ireland now only produces FSC standard wood. I would question such statements given the reality on the ground in many parts of the country. A lot more work needs to be done in this country when it comes to sustaineable forestry practices and the development of markets for other species.The fact that we now import so much ash for Hurley making being a case in point.

Birdnuts

Effects wrote: »

I recently had a meeting with a forestry adviser. He seemed to say sitka spruce was the only option to give me any return in the future.

The new forestry schemes announced by the government seem to promote a greater mix of species. Makes sense since putting all ones eggs in one basket when it comes to crops rarely ends well.

Effects

Birdnuts wrote: »

The new forestry schemes announced by the government seem to promote a greater mix of species. Makes sense since putting all ones eggs in one basket when it comes to crops rarely ends well.

The planner I met with seemed to be focussed on the money making aspect, hence why he was suggesting mainly SS. He couldn't really grasp when I told him I didn't care about getting a long term return within my lifetime. I wanted to plant the likes of beech, birch, sycamore and oak.
Think I'll have to go through details of the new schemes more carefully myself.

Capercaillie

SILVAMAN wrote: »

He refers to the Irish landscape and its apparent destruction by Sitka-that's a highly subjective point of view. The same argument can be made of anything that man puts on the land be it roads, houses or wind turbines-ultimately it's all in the eye of the beholder.



The widespread planting has facilitated the revival and spread of out native pine marten, and as a consequence, it now preys on the non-native grey squirrel which adversely affects the native red squirrel. Young sitka plantations provide cover for many birds and are a favourite hunting ground of the hen harrier.
There has to be more attention to diversifying species, especially because of the huge risk of disease. Our native tree list is tiny and not sustainable for forestry. The aim should be to use alder birch and willow to protect our floodplains and waterways. Sitka should remain the main wood producer, but western red cedar, scots pine(native tree) and tsuga ought to be more widely planted. Spruce plantations ought to be thinned more heavily and earlier to facilitate light entry thereby promoting a ground layer, and large areas of birch and mountain ash and hazel ought to be established to facilitate the spread of these trees which will then occupy these spaces created within the thinned forest plantations. Heavily thinned conifer plantations are superb habitat for woodcock, and woodpecker is spreading westwards due to the increased forest cover. Red squirrel also eat spruce seed, and the forests facilitate the spread of deer.
.

Young sitka spruce plantations are used by Hen Harrier for foraging, but when the canopy closes they become worthless to Hen Harrier. The maturation of sitka spruce mono-cultures has lend to declines in Hen Harrier in important SPA sites. Forestry companies are advocating more forestry planting in the SPA's, which will lead to Hen Harrier extinction.

Great spotted woodpeckers are increasing in range by spreading through mature hardwood forests/Parks and not through sitka spruce plantations.

The widespread planting of Uplands with sitka spruce mono-cultures with resultant fragmentation of habitat and increase in generalist predators has lead to huge declines in species like Curlew (breeding), Red Grouse, Golden Plover (breeding), Dunlin (breeding)

Big Davey

What about the comments on pesticides ?
Cancer causing and polluting rivers when the trees are cut down ?
Is there a need to use pesticides on native species ?
I know nothing about forestry so I am simply asking questions.
It will probably be a year maybe two before I get ground and start planting so I am doing my homework now.
I like the idea of cashing in on a forest in about 30 years I also like the idea of helping the environment and doing what is good for this country and its native species whether it is trees, birds, animals etc
Can I do both ?

Nekarsulm

Not a forester, but I think that this country is trying to create a Forestry culture in an accelerated timeframe.
Most European and Nordic countries have a long history of Silvaculture, and over generations have reached an equilibrium between profit and sustained forestry.
Here we want to plant a farm and have a payday all in a quarter century, and then wonder what to do with the clearfell area. Forestry is a much longer term project, and a short term grant scheme hardly creates a long term success story.
I was struck by an article I heard recently on a radio show, concerning the creation of the canal network in this country. It transpires that the canal builders, as well as building a lock-keepers cottage at each set of lock gates, would also plant two Oak trees. Knowing that by the time the new lock gates were in need of replacement, in about 150 years, the Oak's would be ready to provide the necessary timber.
Now that's forward planning.

timfromtang

In response to the question in Bold "What species native to Ireland are fast growing ?"


Aspen / Populus tremula
Alder / Alnus glutinosa
Birch / Betula pendula

are three which grow very fast indeed.
Poplar would be my choice, perhaps we ought again to manufacture matches in Ireland.
timfromtang

wayoutwest

According to souvenirsfromholland.com, a twenty year old poplar tree can yield 1.5 cubic metres of wood -which is enough to make 60 pairs of adult sized CLOGS.Apparently, the Dutch have twenty factories that use 12,000 poplar trees a year to produce 1 million pairs for footwear, and a further 2 million for souvenirs/gifts/toys.
Timfromtang - If a box of matches had a volume of, say,15 cm3 then a twenty year old tree(1.5 M3) should be enough to make 1000 boxes......handmade matches would be a good complementary product along side your solar kiln dried kindling.

SILVAMAN

One issue in Ireland is that forestry is rarely seen as an integral part of landscape/farm enterprise-it's always the bad part of the farm that gets afforested en bloc, and the concept of integration throughout the farm is alien to most people.
In the UK/Europe you notice wood lots in field corners or between fields and blocks of forest within the farm. Edge/hedgerow trees perform a dual function of aesthetic and ultimately timber production.
By adopting this holistic view/approach to forestry it will promote birdlife and free up smaller parts of quality land which is necessary to grow the broadleaves that so many people would like to see.
While I support forestry aimed at timber production, people need to view it as a multiple use asset-environmental, industrial, aesthetic and recreational.

wayoutwest

With miles of forest paths, tree walks and zip slides, Lough Key forest park is the 'jewel' of Roscommon which attracts a huge amount of visitors to the area.It's the mixture of large oaks, pine, scrub, willow as well as unusual specimens, like giant cedars that makes it such a special and interesting place.
I've noticed that alot of farms in the u.k use their woodland for zip slides, mountain biking,camping/glamping, greenwood workshops ,pheasant shooting, wild boar rearing, as away of generating extra income.out of the trees without clearfelling.

timfromtang

SILVAMAN wrote: »

One issue in Ireland is that forestry is rarely seen as an integral part of landscape/farm enterprise-it's always the bad part of the farm that gets afforested en bloc, and the concept of integration throughout the farm is alien to most people.
In the UK/Europe you notice wood lots in field corners or between fields and blocks of forest within the farm. Edge/hedgerow trees perform a dual function of aesthetic and ultimately timber production.
By adopting this holistic view/approach to forestry it will promote birdlife and free up smaller parts of quality land which is necessary to grow the broadleaves that so many people would like to see.
While I support forestry aimed at timber production, people need to view it as a multiple use asset-environmental, industrial, aesthetic and recreational.

Hi silvaman, I concur, in fact this is a mission of mine, to begin to promote the multiplicity of benefits from farm forestry, free fence posts from your own farm, how about timber for cladding and building sheds, hazelnuts to eat in the winter, cherries to pick in the summer, and the wildlife benefits are huge. Quite apart from the comfort of working in the forest (except perhaps in the rain sometimes) it is usually warmer in the forest when it is cold, more sheltered in the wind, and cooler in the summers heat.

tim

timfromtang

wayoutwest wrote: »

According to souvenirsfromholland.com, a twenty year old poplar tree can yield 1.5 cubic metres of wood -which is enough to make 60 pairs of adult sized CLOGS.Apparently, the Dutch have twenty factories that use 12,000 poplar trees a year to produce 1 million pairs for footwear, and a further 2 million for souvenirs/gifts/toys.
Timfromtang - If a box of matches had a volume of, say,15 cm3 then a twenty year old tree(1.5 M3) should be enough to make 1000 boxes......handmade matches would be a good complementary product along side your solar kiln dried kindling.

Hi Wayoutwest,
with the best of intentions i'd suggest your sums are a bit on the conservative side, a box of matches, 45mm long matches in a bundle 30mm wide, and 10mm deep (a standard box) I have just measured one.
so .045x.030x.010=0.0000135 M cubed
1.5/0.0000135=111111 boxes of matches
conservatively allowing for 33% waste should yield a fantastic 74074 boxes of matches, @ a wholesale price of 15c each 11,111 euro of turnover WOOHOOO from just 1.5 Metres cubed of Poplar.

Now i know these are silly sums, as the infrastructure required is extensive, and there is a need for wax impregnation of the match wood, and some pretty nasty chemicals for the striking head, but food for thought nevertheless.

Our solar kiln is coming along nicely, we have our tunnell purchased, and i have made "legs" and brackets to bolt it down to our silage slab and raise it off the ground for a bigger volume and to protect the fragile palstic walls. We hope to be up and drying timber before the end of the month.

Thank you for your helpful posts on my firewood and kindling kiln thread (you are responsible for the raised walls idea) many thanks.

tim