When a student complains....

Rua88

So I'm covering a sick leave at the moment and a student complained about me working too quickly in class and not covering what they want- I think their parent actually rang in. They are in 5th year ordinary Irish and last teacher has the poetry and stories covered completely so I'm doing Oral and revising the others with them, with a mix of tape. I've given them a revision plan, worksheets for homework (half the time these are left behind, or in this student case rolled in a ball and thrown on the floor).

I wouldn't mind but the student in particular does nothing in class only insist on playing with her phone. She never has a copy in, disrupts class regularly and treats me like ****- smart comments etc back at me. I can't understand why she would complain. I showed the principal all my class notes on behaviour and discipline and the seating plan but he didnt want to see them- actually totally disregarded them.

so he called up to my room to speak to me about it after class on friday and turns out he'll be dropping in and out of my classes for the next while "inspecting me". In all the schools I've been in, this has never happened. I hate the feeling of someone just dropping me, its like being on teaching practice all over again.

Another girl that started with me had two students complain about her not teaching like their other teacher and he's sitting in inspecting her as well. We'll have a review and feedback session afterwards and he'll decide if he needs to call again. Turns out there are a few of us in the same boat. Every one of us runs an extracurricular and does loads for the school- stuff that other older teachers arent interested in at all.

I think this is going to really undermine me as a professional in front of the class. I'm actually working off the other teachers scheme and plans. It's ruined my weekend and as someone with anxiety, this is pretty hard to deal with.

I hate the school I am in for other reasons as well- no communication between management, no discipline procedures being followed through with. Six of us being outcasted for being newbies and subjected to these inspections when no other teacher ever was, whether they got a complaint or not. One of the Maths teachers died laughing when we said it to him.

I came back home Friday and said to my partner that I would happily walk away from the job and never look back only we need the money at the moment.

I think I'm done with secondary teaching. Roll on May.

Windorah

You poor thing!! That sounds absolutely horrible!!

It sounds to me like the principal is just playing into the parents hands. Little darling complained, parents rang all guns blazing and he sweet talked them and assured them he would take charge.

I'm not a secondary teacher so there isn't much constructive advice I can give unfortunately but just work towards the Easter holidays and then it's the home straight till summer!

Fear_an_tarbh

That's a really horrible situation and an unprofessional response from your principal.
Document everything (behaviour/work not completed/worksheet balled up etc.) and request a sit-down meeting with the principal. He has to agree to this.
You could request the year head for that year attend too. Explain that you want to discuss the complaint against you and hand him a paper copy addressed to him of all the points you want to make, where you are in the syllabus/ anything else relevant and make sure he takes it.

I'd request a meeting with the parent and principal/year head too maybe, complaints without right-to-reply should not lead to a principal taking action, Parents love to rant over the phone, but its often a different story sitting down with someone who has the cold hard facts about the situation and their child's behaviour.

Don't be disheartened, issues like this are part & parcel of teaching these days :cool:, it won't be the last bit of bull**** you deal with!
Your principal will respect you more for standing up for yourself and defending yourself professionally.

thickhead

Thickhead by name / Thickhead by nature

Member Banned

Mod

MouseTail

I'm surprised at the fact students are allowed to be on their phones during class. Is there not a policy not phone usage?

endacl

thickhead wrote: »

snipped stupid comment

Superbly apt username...

:rolleyes:

mick kk

Hi
This is an awkward situation but all you can do is your best.

Be fully prepared for class and enforce/change your seating plan. These are the things that you can control.

You cannot control a number of items
1. the lack of a proper discipline structure in the school [I am guessing that if they are whipping out the phones in class, there are serious problems in the school which you will not be able to solve]
2. the lack of a proper support structure/induction structure for new/young teachers
3. a student's total refusal to engage

As you are teaching Irish, you are well positioned to move on next year [depending on your location]

I would also try to not rely on another teacher's notes...why not do your own thing for a lesson or two to see how you get on? You don't have to be that other teacher. Try a different approach.

Turn the principal's visit to your advantage and put the spotlight on him/her when they are in your room.....e.g. thanks Mr. X for visiting my class...you came at a perfect time....Mary there is texting on her phone, Peter has no book/copy and is unprepared for class contrary to the code of behaviour etc.....then let him/her deal with it seeing as they are so concerned.

evolving_doors

Sorry to hear that OP. It's a bit of an affront if you ask me, esp. as you have documented everything that has gone on. It's ironic that the principal has the time to be wasting appeasing idiots but wont follow through on the behavior issues!

The only saving grace is if the principal agrees to report back to the parents that there's nothing wrong with your teaching what so ever. I wouldn;t hold my breath though.

I'd say just keep the head down, if you are following the plan then fair play to you. It's not easy to step into another teacher's shoes. Just think of it from the perspective of doing your best for the other students. Keep a record of everything (even record comments made straight away after class).. also notes in the journal if they are not participating in the class (even keep the rolled up worksheet).

But of course there's always the 'teacher obviously has it in for me' the more you make a point of trying to stay on top of the discipline. There's some students that just thrive of this, the twisted logic is that by them not engaging then their resultant failure will be 'proof' of their claims.

If you are up for a bit of psychological warfare you could try the 'smothering with kindness'. Get to know the likes and dislikes of the whole class (pets/hobbies) then try and make a point of showing interest in their interests. Salute them in the corridor. Talk to as many teachers as you can who have this student, eventually you will come across another teacher who had the same issue but used a different approach.

But that's teaching though, with some students you have to bide your time. I remember one student pulled the wool over my eyes in 2nd year... they had the 'smirk' and fake greeting every time they met me for 4 years... caught them rotten breaking the rules in 6th year though. Although there was another horrible group (really high blood pressure sneaky stuff) which in the end I just had to accept that they'd be gone and forgotten about in a few years so there was no point in letting them get to me. Just put on the professional face and go in and do what you can.

HAve you tried contacting the parents yourself? Just to air your concerns!

Similarly with the principal.. kill him with confidence. If the class are generally getting through the workload then you're doing your job in a tricky environment. I think if it were the UK then multi-observations would be par for the course for new teachers. As much as I'd hate that you still have to go into teacher mode and go on the offensive.

seavill

mick kk wrote: »

Hi
This is an awkward situation but all you can do is your best.

Be fully prepared for class and enforce/change your seating plan. These are the things that you can control.

You cannot control a number of items
1. the lack of a proper discipline structure in the school [I am guessing that if they are whipping out the phones in class, there are serious problems in the school which you will not be able to solve]
2. the lack of a proper support structure/induction structure for new/young teachers
3. a student's total refusal to engage

As you are teaching Irish, you are well positioned to move on next year [depending on your location]

I would also try to not rely on another teacher's notes...why not do your own thing for a lesson or two to see how you get on? You don't have to be that other teacher. Try a different approach.

Turn the principal's visit to your advantage and put the spotlight on him/her when they are in your room.....e.g. thanks Mr. X for visiting my class...you came at a perfect time....Mary there is texting on her phone, Peter has no book/copy and is unprepared for class contrary to the code of behaviour etc.....then let him/her deal with it seeing as they are so concerned.

Excellent idea

You could look at it a different way, as hard as it may seem that the other 20 or so haven't complained.
As others have said you don't have to be the other teacher, obviously try to follow the scheme but in your own individual way. If it is oral work, I would throw the straith pictiur out the window (clearly by my spelling i don't teach Irish) and just get them talking about the weekend, the sports, fashion whatever it is engages them and go from there, eventually get back to the real work once you have them on side.

In relation to lack of discipline overall in the school, personally (and often this is just me), but I would enforce the rules in your room regardless of whether or not the rest of the school do. If the rule is no phones in class (which it is in 90% of schools) then enforce that. If it is points or whatever give it to them. If the year head etc. does nothing about it afterwards then that is their problem but let the kids see you will enforce the rules regardless in your room. Despite what they like to think kids, especially the bold ones, love to know where they stand, they will push the boundaries until they find the line. They will end up respecting you more for it eventually.

In relation to the principal coming in, if the kids see it effects you they will use it against you when he is not there. Like the poster above said use it to show them up. You have said it is happening to 6 or so of you so the principal coming in won't be as big a deal for them as yo think it will be. It will only be a big deal if you let it be a big deal. I wouldn't put on a show for the principal continue showing what you normally do but point out things that need to change

bduffy

I've little experience with this age group except for a brief 4 month stint but are staff allowed to use a camcorder or equivalent to record the class for the purposes of studying student engagement? Trying out different teaching methods etc. (Or as a means of keeping students on their toes)
I've found that when students are being 'studied' then they tend to smarten up.
Of course there are downsides to the suggestion (complaints from students) but in this case I think using logic and plans are lost causes if they spot an opportunity to disrupt the class.
May be a complete non runner but I found that discipline comes first and education will follow.
B

evolving_doors

bduffy wrote: »

I've little experience with this age group except for a brief 4 month stint but are staff allowed to use a camcorder or equivalent to record the class for the purposes of studying student engagement? Trying out different teaching methods etc. (Or as a means of keeping students on their toes)
I've found that when students are being 'studied' then they tend to smarten up.
Of course there are downsides to the suggestion (complaints from students) but in this case I think using logic and plans are lost causes if they spot an opportunity to disrupt the class.
May be a complete non runner but I found that discipline comes first and education will follow.
B

I suppose with consent of parents and school. Although is the camera on the students or the teacher?
It then raises more difficulties (obviously parents would be entitled to copies).
"You never answered my son's question on 2 occasions", "you talk to fast", "the expression on their faces show they dont understand","you picked on my child 3 times this week,","another child is getting all the attention", "i have a friend who gives driving lessons and he says your teaching methods are terrible", "you started the class five minutes late"...

I think it would substantially change the nature of teaching as you would have to justify every little thing you do to non-professionals, nobody has the time nor patience for that.

Maybe if the parents were told to check the students phone records!

evolving_doors

I think the solution is in the title OP.

One student complained. others are not complaining.

The principal is appeasing one idiot... although maybe to be fair he is doing a review of all new teachers! This will be par for the course when the NQT mentoring comes in.

prettygurrly

Unfortunately, the way students are mollified in secondary - and it sounds like your principal is acting unprofessionally, I'd talk to your union rep and if you don't have one then join one - is now leading into ridiculous attitudes at 3rd level. If any students complain it's immediately my fault rather than the student not doing the reading I set that might help them understand the concept I've introduced in lectures. I'm also beholden to other modules who aren't fulfilling the number of contact hours that we are contracted to do, and as a consequence I'm teaching concepts to fourth years that I would regard as 1st year work but they were never taught in the first place. A similar problem for you OP as you are trying to fill shoes of a teacher that maybe didn't push the students - one (and I'm surprised only one) is now complaining...stay strong and think of the long game and that you are trying to do the best by the students whether that one student likes it or not.

I agree with other posters too - I have other lecturers come in to observe me and see if it's on my side that students are complaining - I take it as an opportunity to prove them wrong. In fact, I'd welcome the principal in...if you're doing your job correctly then you've nothing to hide and everything to show off.

evolving_doors

prettygurrly wrote: »

Unfortunately, the way students are mollified in secondary - and it sounds like your principal is acting unprofessionally, I'd talk to your union rep and if you don't have one then join one - is now leading into ridiculous attitudes at 3rd level. If any students complain it's immediately my fault rather than the student not doing the reading I set that might help them understand the concept I've introduced in lectures. I'm also beholden to other modules who aren't fulfilling the number of contact hours that we are contracted to do, and as a consequence I'm teaching concepts to fourth years that I would regard as 1st year work but they were never taught in the first place. A similar problem for you OP as you are trying to fill shoes of a teacher that maybe didn't push the students - one (and I'm surprised only one) is now complaining...stay strong and think of the long game and that you are trying to do the best by the students whether that one student likes it or not.

I agree with other posters too - I have other lecturers come in to observe me and see if it's on my side that students are complaining - I take it as an opportunity to prove them wrong. In fact, I'd welcome the principal in...if you're doing your job correctly then you've nothing to hide and everything to show off.

I think what's irking the OP the most was that this student has track record that hasn;t been conveyed to the parents by the principal. Also the OP has documented all the incidents but due process isn;t being supported by management. So by giving the parents the benefit of the doubt is really undermining the teacher. What happens when other students see the principal in ... (" oh the principal is in cos she's no good compared to the other teacher, maybe the other student was right making a complain").. mightntn be the whole class but once one student knows there's a gap in the fence and room for messing then the system breaks down.

prettygurrly

The students only know what you tell them. If the teacher welcomes the Principal into the classroom that puts him in a position of power...

I did say that I thought the principal was acting unprofessionally - I'm just trying to give the OP some solidarity and to know that they're not the only one. I have classes of 120 students and I have one complaint and I end up having a chat with my manager. Even though 119 other students haven't had any problems...

man_no_plan

I don't doubt that the OP is getting through the work and is well capable of doing the job.

The principal has a job to do and has to lists to parents when they call. Unfortunately they don't have the luxury of being able to say they're in class and avoid phone calls!!

The point in making is that we live in the age of accountability and if people have concerns the buck stops with the principal. It is very difficult when you're talking to an upset parent who genuinely feels that their child isn't getting the best out of school.

The problems in this school seem to be systemic though really. And in the absence of a system of reporting and follow up the principal is at a remove from what os going on. Personally, and I'm only the deputy, I would always listen to parents and take note of their concerns before I finish the call I say that I will talk to the teacher and remind them that neither of us are in the classroom and that there are two sides to every story.

The next stage is to say it to the teacher. Theirs records will often show a student who is disengaged and causing trouble, I would find that the teacher has usually been in touch with home and with the year head. This is an easy one.

But you do get the calls where the student is spot on and a teacher isn't getting on with a class and we can deal with that too in a supportive way.

The ones that are hardest are the cases where the teacher isn't upfront and blames everything under the sun, often starting with how useless I am and how the previous deputy was great and
125 years teaching they have never been so insulted!

I think OP that your principal is being a bit ott given its the first call he has had, I think you have been given good advice from others here, particularly seavill, you're the boss in your class. Keep a firm line and a high standard. Nobody can argue with numbers, corrected for talking 3 times, no homework on x occassions and a list of the work done. You shouldn't have to defend yourself like this but if it comes to it you need to have your facts straight. Then meet the parents and make your case.

katydid

mick kk wrote: »

Turn the principal's visit to your advantage and put the spotlight on him/her when they are in your room.....e.g. thanks Mr. X for visiting my class...you came at a perfect time....Mary there is texting on her phone, Peter has no book/copy and is unprepared for class contrary to the code of behaviour etc...

Except that when the principal is in the room, they will be as good as gold.

seavill

katydid wrote: »

Except that when the principal is in the room, they will be as good as gold.

Not necessarily true. As he walks into the room they won't be prepared for it. And you can simply then go "take out your copies, the sheet I gave you yesterday etc. etc." and catch them out that way. If they then do turn good well great thats the point

Rua88

To be honest I'm just sick of the crap that we've had to put up with in the school, we were also asked to mark the mocks for the people who hadn't paid for them to be corrected- not the teachers that actually had the students. I don't have history hours but was asked to correct them free of charge as a favour to the kids I didn't teach. Vice Principal had a word with me but I refused. Apparently its a right of passage in the school. A student who wasn't in my class, did one of my exams by mistake at Christmas and I gave it to the correct teacher with my scheme and it was thrown back at me to correct. I refused to do it and left it in his letter box and he sent it back to me. I didn't correct it and left it on his lunch table with a note and he apparently just threw it in the bin and gave the student an average mark.

Vice Principal also asked me about it as well but he is also useless for support. I mean I don't teach the student or know anything about them, their own teacher should correct a term test for them. I think I've just reached the edge of it now. I love teaching and I trained for a hell of a long time to be one. I never EVER intended to teach in this school (I had heard from other NQTs who didn't last as long as this) and more or less did it as a favour because I know the teacher on sick leave and nobody applied for the job. I was "interviewed" for about 5 minutes 5 weeks into the job. The advice I was given by other teachers was to not go near either the principal or VP for discipline issues to just go to year heads or other teachers to deal with students because they have other stuff to worry about.

The kids in that class are a pain in the arse and have made my life hell. They were good for the first 2 weeks and then all hell broke loose when 4 new students arrived in (adding to the 28 I had already) and it just turned to crowd control. 60% of the class are brilliant and I have just resolved to teaching them. The student in particular to be honest was good at the start and now she refuses to do anything. I tried to take her phone one day, had it in my hand and she got up and took my iPad off my desk and told me she would be holding onto it until she got her phone back. I reported it and she was given one detention class then waltzed back in the next day with a big how are ya miss and a smile on her face. VP told me to let it go!

I was told by principal to stick strictly to the plan of the last teacher, teach exactly how she taught them, exact same homework, no group work etc just to basically be the last teacher and not be myself.

Thanks for all advice, will definitely take that advice of calling them out in front of him- they will be as good as gold of course but nobody will have a book, a copy or a pen and sure it'll be all right by him like and the feedback will be that I am working them too hard and that they are frustrated- the answer every one gets.

solerina

Rua88 wrote: »

To be honest I'm just sick of the crap that we've had to put up with in the school, we were also asked to mark the mocks for the people who hadn't paid for them to be corrected- not the teachers that actually had the students. I don't have history hours but was asked to correct them free of charge as a favour to the kids I didn't teach. Vice Principal had a word with me but I refused. Apparently its a right of passage in the school. A student who wasn't in my class, did one of my exams by mistake at Christmas and I gave it to the correct teacher with my scheme and it was thrown back at me to correct. I refused to do it and left it in his letter box and he sent it back to me. I didn't correct it and left it on his lunch table with a note and he apparently just threw it in the bin and gave the student an average mark.

Vice Principal also asked me about it as well but he is also useless for support. I mean I don't teach the student or know anything about them, their own teacher should correct a term test for them. I think I've just reached the edge of it now. I love teaching and I trained for a hell of a long time to be one. I never EVER intended to teach in this school (I had heard from other NQTs who didn't last as long as this) and more or less did it as a favour because I know the teacher on sick leave and nobody applied for the job. I was "interviewed" for about 5 minutes 5 weeks into the job. The advice I was given by other teachers was to not go near either the principal or VP for discipline issues to just go to year heads or other teachers to deal with students because they have other stuff to worry about.

The kids in that class are a pain in the arse and have made my life hell. They were good for the first 2 weeks and then all hell broke loose when 4 new students arrived in (adding to the 28 I had already) and it just turned to crowd control. 60% of the class are brilliant and I have just resolved to teaching them. The student in particular to be honest was good at the start and now she refuses to do anything. I tried to take her phone one day, had it in my hand and she got up and took my iPad off my desk and told me she would be holding onto it until she got her phone back. I reported it and she was given one detention class then waltzed back in the next day with a big how are ya miss and a smile on her face. VP told me to let it go!

I was told by principal to stick strictly to the plan of the last teacher, teach exactly how she taught them, exact same homework, no group work etc just to basically be the last teacher and not be myself.

Thanks for all advice, will definitely take that advice of calling them out in front of him- they will be as good as gold of course but nobody will have a book, a copy or a pen and sure it'll be all right by him like and the feedback will be that I am working them too hard and that they are frustrated- the answer every one gets.

Sounds like you are really being taken advantage of OP...I would certainly consider calling in the union.
Otherwise I would organise the seating..if possible with 32 students, take the kids who want to be taught up to the front, put the trouble makers to the back and try to ignore them...often when they are ignored and see that the class in going on in spite of them they start to behave...they really don't like being ignored and the acting out if often to gain attention !!

gaeilgebeo

Lack of support from management is soul destroying for new teachers.
Your situation sounds awful.

Why are you teaching 32 students in a class?
Is the union directive not a max of 30?

Rua88

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Lack of support from management is soul destroying for new teachers.

You got it in one.

I think my Mental Health is worth more to me and with the talking down I got yet again today, I think I'll be throwing towel in at Easter and boycotting that school completely!

evolving_doors

Rua88 wrote: »

You got it in one.

I think my Mental Health is worth more to me and with the talking down I got yet again today, I think I'll be throwing towel in at Easter and boycotting that school completely!

YA one for the union definitely (even if you aren;t a member then just send a cheque in the post and get the ball rolling). If the principal dismisses you or undermines your credibility then I would imagine that they would be on very shakey ground for allowing numbers in your class to reach crazy proportions (also it was undermining not to deal with the behavioural issue in hand and focus on your teaching, the behaviour was the issue and that's been documented).

Were the year heads any good! In all fairness they should be setting up some type of referral system to support you as the student is their responsibility just as much as it is yours. Could they not agree for you to send some of the vagrants to sit it out in their classes, they seem more than willing to chuckle at your predicament but considering they are presumably paid the allowance to take charge of the year, then they're swinging the lead too!

If you are called for any type of arranged meeting (with parents and/or principal ) then insist on a third party being present to minute/chair the meeting and that everyone would sign off on what was said. If this is too much to ask then at least ask what exactly is the purpose of the meeting (or classroom observation!).