Locks for entrance doors of apartments

jd

Notice of OMC AGM was received by me recently and it included a sheet (extract below) addressed to all owners.




Below is a photo of our door. The original lock is below, it can be "operated in the direction of escape without a key".



The wording in the in the letter is a bit ambiguous - it mentions that the apartment cannot be unintentionally locked on exit in case of emergency.

So my question is whether my "upper" chubb lock is in breach of fire regulations. If so, what have people installed to provide additional security.

Dept of environment http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1640,en.pdf

1.4.3.2 as quoted in letter

1.4.3.2 Door fastenings - In general, doors on
escape routes, whether or not the doors are fire
doors, should either not be fitted with lock, latch or
bolt fastenings, or they should only be fitted with
simple fastenings that can be readily operated in the
direction of escape without the use of a key.

Chubb lock is only used when apartment is vacant

CollyFlower

According to the notice you got it seems to be in breach of regulations. Seems a bit OTT to me, it also seems to me to mean that you can have the lock but can't use it while you're in your apartment, unless I misread the letter you got.

Grandpa Hassan

That is ridiculously OTT. Who uses the 2nd bolt lock when they are inside their apartment for goodness sake

jd

Just to be clear, all owners got the letter. The report was not drawn up by the OMC, but by a company brought in to do the fire safety audit.

P. Breathnach

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

That is ridiculously OTT. Who uses the 2nd bolt lock when they are inside their apartment for goodness sake

I imagine that some people do. They might be more concerned about security against intruders than by fire safety.

The problem might be solved by fitting a plate so as to make it impossible to operate the deadlock from inside the apartment.

MarkAnthony

Lack of logic being applied here.

The mortice lock won't affect the current installation unless you're in the habit of stopping, turning around and locking the door when the building is on fire. Furthermore you could still do that with only the original locking mechanism.

They are also imputing their own reasons on to a guideline that is designed to be applied to communal doors and not apartment unit doors (see para 4 in OP picture). Get on to the directors and get them to have a word with the managing agent.

athtrasna

There's also the issue that the door isn't yours, it's the apartment door and installing a second lock in this case may be seen as damage to common property or altering the external appearance of the unit depending on your lease.

P. Breathnach

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Lack of logic being applied here....

I think there is logic in the advice. If there were a fire, it should be relatively easy for somebody inside an apartment to get out without having to find keys in the dark, in a smoky space, and while in a state of anxiety.

P. Breathnach

athtrasna wrote: »

There's also the issue that the door isn't yours, it's the apartment door and installing a second lock in this case may be seen as damage to common property or altering the external appearance of the unit depending on your lease.

That's at a lower level of importance than safety in the event of fire. But it is a leverage that the OMC can exercise in order to prevent unit owners making apartments unsafe.

jd

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Lack of logic being applied here.

The mortice lock won't affect the current installation unless you're in the habit of stopping, turning around and locking the door when the building is on fire. Furthermore you could still do that with only the original locking mechanism.

I think the locks that the fire safety people were referring to are those that lock without a key beingurned on exit.
BTW no agents - self managed by OMC

I posted this as much to get people to think about these issues - i will of course be following up with OMC

hfallada

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

That is ridiculously OTT. Who uses the 2nd bolt lock when they are inside their apartment for goodness sake

I know everyone in a house uses it. Because if you have glass panels beside your door. The glass can be smashed and people can easily open the door, if the Chubb isnt locked.

I cant think of single Apartment in Ireland, where I havent seen a Chubb lock on the main door. Its a requirement for most insurance companies

MarkAnthony

jd wrote: »

I think the locks that the fire safety people were referring to are those that lock without a key beingurned on exit.
BTW no agents - self managed by OMC

I posted this as much to get people to think about these issues - i will of course be following up with OMC

Simply needs to be discussed at the AGM tbh.

We've had fire audits, this has never come up. If the concern is the use of them while the apartments are occupied there is a simple solution P. Breathnach. I doubt many people use them in that way.

MarkAnthony

athtrasna wrote: »

There's also the issue that the door isn't yours, it's the apartment door and installing a second lock in this case may be seen as damage to common property or altering the external appearance of the unit depending on your lease.

I have to say I find this dubious.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think there is logic in the advice. If there were a fire, it should be relatively easy for somebody inside an apartment to get out without having to find keys in the dark, in a smoky space, and while in a state of anxiety.

Note the guideline states 'generally'. I've seen this installation in many blocks and in my own complex it's never been raised on fire audits, including one where if there was anything incompliant it would have been raised as it was being carried out by the resident nutter's engineer.

The concern highlighted (see para 4) is entry by the fire brigade.

athtrasna

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I have to say I find this dubious.

I have to say it's not. From the picture it's not an own (front/external) door apartment it's a door behind a common front entrance and therefore doors lead to common property and are most likely covered by one of the rules I suggested.

For the record, we have shared entrance units in our development and the locks depend on how many units are behind a single entrance. We have some apartments where there are only two behind a single front door, they have mortice style locks but the larger 8 unit blocks have locks like the original lock on the OP's door.

MarkAnthony

athtrasna wrote: »

I have to say it's not. From the picture it's not an own (front/external) door apartment it's a door behind a common front entrance and therefore doors lead to common property and are most likely covered by one of the rules I suggested.

For the record, we have shared entrance units in our development and the locks depend on how many units are behind a single entrance. We have some apartments where there are only two behind a single front door, they have mortice style locks but the larger 8 unit blocks have locks like the original lock on the OP's door.

To clarify you're suggesting the small brass fronted hole for the mortice lock is the issue?

I remain dubious such an addition would be enough to be considered a breach of the lease. A fire safety issue may but what the OP has highlighted is not a regulation document it's the support document to aid with compliance.

Simple common sense would suggest that these types of locks are not prohibited given their pervasiveness.

athtrasna

MarkAnthony wrote: »

To clarify you're suggesting the small brass fronted hole for the mortice lock is the issue?

I remain dubious such an addition would be enough to be considered a breach of the lease. A fire safety issue may but what the OP has highlighted is not a regulation document it's the support document to aid with compliance.

Simple common sense would suggest that these types of locks are not prohibited given their pervasiveness.

I'm suggesting that is a secondary issue, not the main issue but something most likely prohibited by the OP's lease for one of two additional reasons other than the key fire safety issue.

Pervasiveness does not indicate compliance, sometimes they came as standard. Other times, a bit like satellite dishes, people went ahead and installed them with no regard for the legal documents they signed.

Del2005

The Technical Guidance document B doesn't ban mortice locks it just says that they have be opened from the inside without a key, for an apartment get a thumb turn inside. These locks are not OK as they can slam lock.

You might need to send that picture to your MC to show that you are complying with the regulations.

1.4.3.2 Door fastenings - In general, doors on
escape routes, whether or not the doors are fire
doors, should either not be fitted with lock, latch or
bolt fastenings, or they should only be fitted with
simple fastenings that can be readily operated in the
direction of escape without the use of a key.
Where security on final exit doors is an important
consideration, such as some assembly or commercial
uses, panic bolts should be used to secure doors.
Where additional security is required when the
premises is not in use, hardware which is fully
removable should be used. The following
recommendations apply to buildings, or parts of45
buildings which are used for assembly or recreation
(Purpose Group 5):-
(a) Exit doors from areas holding more than 50
people should either be free from fastenings or
be fitted with panic bolts complying with I.S. EN
1125 1997.
(b) Doors, other than those covered by item (a),
should be fitted only with simple fastenings that
can be operated from the escape side of the
door without the use of a key.
Attention is drawn to the provisions of the Fire
Safety in Places of Assembly (Ease of Escape),
Regulations, 1985 (S.I. No. 249 of 1985).
Information about door closing and hold open
devices for fire doors is given in Appendix B.

CollyFlower

I seen a few of these secondary locks on owners /tenents doors, we've had no notice like you have had, I was thinking of getting one myself, best not, for now!

ted1

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Lack of logic being applied here.

The mortice lock won't affect the current installation unless you're in the habit of stopping, turning around and locking the door when the building is on fire.

But the possibility is that it can happen. Simple solution is to put a face plate and cover the key hole

ted1

hfallada wrote: »

I know everyone in a house uses it. Because if you have glass panels beside your door. The glass can be smashed and people can easily open the door, if the Chubb isnt locked.

I cant think of single Apartment in Ireland, where I havent seen a Chubb lock on the main door. Its a requirement for most insurance companies

I'm in a house and never use the Chubb lock.
Then again when I rented an apartment we lived on the top floor and never used the lock for three years . We were only giving one key to the apartment door and reckoned that the odds of some one breaking into the front door and then trying every individual door was pretty low

CollyFlower

Apartment's have very high fire controls /laws these days, when my block fire alarm goes off I don't panic (no one does) we just wait till we smell smok before we'd evaucate.

murphaph

ted1 wrote: »

But the possibility is that it can happen. Simple solution is to put a face plate and cover the key hole

This is actually more dangerous. The father of the nrwborn might go off to work and in his sleep deprived state accidentally lock the door behind him. Now there's potentially no escape for wife and baby within.

Grandpa Hassan

I understand the fire regulations in apartment blocks seeking to ensure that a fire in one apartment doesnt spread to another (hence the firwewalls in attic spaces and the door rules in the communial areas), but what is inside ones apartment should be up to the owner. If the owner wants to lock himself in and burn in a fire, then that is their perogative surely. And as for all the doors within the apartment needing to close, and have those chains on the hinges which automatically close them.....well, I removed all the ones in mine. I want to be able to leave doors open. H&S gone mad IMO

jd

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I understand the fire regulations in apartment blocks seeking to ensure that a fire in one apartment doesnt spread to another (hence the firwewalls in attic spaces and the door rules in the communial areas), but what is inside ones apartment should be up to the owner. If the owner wants to lock himself in and burn in a fire, then that is their perogative surely. And as for all the doors within the apartment needing to close, and have those chains on the hinges which automatically close them.....well, I removed all the ones in mine. I want to be able to leave doors open. H&S gone mad IMO

Dublin City Council make the following point
http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-water-waste-and-environment-dublin-fire-brigade-and-ambulance-service-fire-saf-10

Access to Apartments for Fire Safety Maintenance

In landlord type buildings access to individual apartments is generally not a problem however in the typical purpose built apartment blocks this can be more difficult to organise.

However the management company is charged with the responsibility of maintaining various building system including fire safety systems and must be able to gain access to carry out necessary maintenance.

All the apartments are seen as part of a single building community from a fire safety point of view and a fire in one unit affect the fire safety of all the others.
Consequently the fire authority or other regulatory agencies may require access to individual or all apartments in order to discharge its functions and be satisfied that all of the required precautions have been taken and are maintained in good condition.

murphaph wrote: »

This is actually more dangerous. The father of the nrwborn might go off to work and in his sleep deprived state accidentally lock the door behind him. Now there's potentially no escape for wife and baby within.

Yes, we had a guest who chub locked the door behind him when he left early one morning. I wasn't too impressed!.

Grandpa Hassan

jd wrote: »

Dublin City Council make the following point
http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-water-waste-and-environment-dublin-fire-brigade-and-ambulance-service-fire-saf-10

I just read that as the management company might need to get in from time to time, so make sure they have a key. Doesn't relate to the excessive H&S issue raised with the OP about making sure people can get out of the apartment in a fire - that is up to them IMO

jd

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I just read that as the management company might need to get in from time to time, so make sure they have a key. Doesn't relate to the excessive H&S issue raised with the OP about making sure people can get out of the apartment in a fire - that is up to them IMO

The relevant part of doc is this

All the apartments are seen as part of a single building community from a fire safety point of view and a fire in one unit affect the fire safety of all the others.

I presume the point re chains on the internal doors is that it confines the fire to a small area for as long a period as possible, increasing the length of time until the fire may spread to common areas
(Yup, we did have chains on the internal doors when we first moved in)

ted1

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I understand the fire regulations in apartment blocks seeking to ensure that a fire in one apartment doesnt spread to another (hence the firwewalls in attic spaces and the door rules in the communial areas), but what is inside ones apartment should be up to the owner. If the owner wants to lock himself in and burn in a fire, then that is their perogative surely. And as for all the doors within the apartment needing to close, and have those chains on the hinges which automatically close them.....well, I removed all the ones in mine. I want to be able to leave doors open. H&S gone mad IMO

That's all grand if it only affected you, but there is life insurance that civers your mortgage if you die. So your death financially affects others therefore prevention methods need to put in place

I've never seen an apartment which the door didn't lock automatically on closing and couldn't be opened from the outside without a key so I don't see how this could actually be a regulation.

As for double locking, I think most people living in city locations are more comfortable in their home with the door double locked while they are inside. People double lock their houses all the time also and I don't think that's an issue. The notice is way OTT imo.

jd

Scarlett Gentle Plank wrote: »

I've never seen an apartment which the door didn't lock automatically on closing and couldn't be opened from the outside without a key so I don't see how this could actually be a regulation.

As for double locking, I think most people living in city locations are more comfortable in their home with the door double locked while they are inside. People double lock their houses all the time also and I don't think that's an issue. The notice is way OTT imo.

My main door has to be explicitly locked outside, otherwise it can be opened with the outside door handle.

I think the issue may be that it has to be possible to open the main door without a key from the inside.

The OMC are (rightly) communicating what's in the report from the fire safety auditors

awec

Scarlett Gentle Plank wrote: »

I've never seen an apartment which the door didn't lock automatically on closing and couldn't be opened from the outside without a key so I don't see how this could actually be a regulation.

As for double locking, I think most people living in city locations are more comfortable in their home with the door double locked while they are inside. People double lock their houses all the time also and I don't think that's an issue. The notice is way OTT imo.

I've seen loads.

My pretty modern Dublin apartment doesn't lock on close. Needs a key to lock except on the inside which is a thumb lock.

Is there not another issue here that if you fit your own lock that your management company won't be able to get in, as chances are they'll only have the key to the original lock?

awec

awec wrote: »

I've seen loads.

My pretty modern Dublin apartment doesn't lock on close. Needs a key to lock except on the inside which is a thumb lock.

Is there not another issue here that if you fit your own lock that your management company won't be able to get in, as chances are they'll only have the key to the original lock?

From memory all the apartments I've visited (both new and older ones) have locked on closing (or had a secondary lock which needed locking but the main one locked on closing). Friends standing holding the door when leaving checking if they have the keys before letting the door close is one memory that stood out when I tried to think of apartments locking or not or jamming something in the door if there was a stream of visitors to keep it open.

One or two of the apartments I know off dont use keys at all but rather swipe access.