DAB - is it done-for?

Lovely Bloke

Is DAB a dead duck?

gimmick

Was it ever anything but?

Trick of the Tail

In the UK and several other European countries DAB is anything but a dead duck. Nationally in the UK you can pick up many, many stations playing a wide variety of programming you'll not get on FM.

Surely more listener choice is a good thing?

It's not been allowed to take off here yet because of the blinkered, short-sighted, protectionist attitude of the BAI.

They're too worried about the viability of the FM stations to actively want to introduce any more competition for them.

Which is a pity, since properly implemented, a DAB licensing structure would allow smaller, more niche stations to thrive, and in providing their content they will help save the radio industry as a whole from listener migration away from broadcast and toward web listening.

DAB should be licensed here right now, immediately. And with no constraining financial pressures. Then watch smaller broadcasters take it up with alacrity.

I'm driving around Dublin listening to an album-rock station playing stuff I won't hear on any other FM station. And the quality is as good as FM.

That's what DAB does well.

bbability

The more variety the better. RTE are trying to push ahead with DAB it's just so expensive. That's why it should be a joint national partnership. I see RTE Gold is the best performing digital station. John Clarke posted a chart from January on the facebook page for the jukebox show. 5 million minutes listened to in January from the chart shown. Get it out there. We are falling behind the Other countries.

Kensington

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

In the UK and several other European countries DAB is anything but a dead duck. Nationally in the UK you can pick up many, many stations playing a wide variety of programming you'll not get on FM.

Surely more listener choice is a good thing?

It's not been allowed to take off here yet because of the blinkered, short-sighted, protectionist attitude of the BAI.

They're too worried about the viability of the FM stations to actively want to introduce any more competition for them.

Which is a pity, since properly implemented, a DAB licensing structure would allow smaller, more niche stations to thrive, and in providing their content they will help save the radio industry as a whole from listener migration away from broadcast and toward web listening.

DAB should be licensed here right now, immediately. And with no constraining financial pressures. Then watch smaller broadcasters take it up with alacrity.

I'm driving around Dublin listening to an album-rock station playing stuff I won't hear on any other FM station. And the quality is as good as FM.

That's what DAB does well.

Will they though? That was mentioned as a selling point of SaorView DTT, that it'd be far cheaper to launch niche digital TV channels compared to analogue UHF.

Unfortunately the economic reality of it is that the SaorView DTT network has to be paid for so each channel operator must pay an equal share of the platform cost.
Since there are so few channel operators, the per-channel cost is astronomical.
More channels would of course "divide up the cost-pie" but no small player can afford right now to be the first to start that divide...

The risk is that the situation is the same in radioland, there wouldn't be enough unique content providers willing to commit to DAB radio.

The result - a few broadcasters are each paying astronomical sums of money amongst them to keep a hypothetical national DAB platform running.
No small player could afford to be on the platform and those that are on it are trying to commercialise as much as possible to get a return (automation, lots of advertising).
Without "constraining financial pressure", if an unviable station drops off this increases the exposure to the other operators, since the mux cost doesn't change but the number of people contributing reduces and could start a vicious decline in each operator's viability position...

total former

Yeah, smaller broadcasters can only really get in on the act by piggybacking on someone else's transmission network. So it's going to require either public money or private investment to essentially subsidise smaller niche stations.

Saorview probably only became viable because there was an EU directive mandating it, even though DTT was infinitely superior to analogue TV. Is there that much of a quality gap between FM and DAB? I'm not sure, I don't think it's enough to prompt people to go out and buy new equipment, which means you can't reach a critical mass of listeners, which means advertisers aren't interested, which means stations don't want to use it - a vicious circle.

Also, many of the audience under 40, those who would normally be the main purchasers of new technology, can already get every station in the world via their smartphone - that would make you wonder where the impetus to make a go of DAB is going to come from, unless the EU decides that FM has had its day and is to be shut down (I can't see that happening).

Trick of the Tail

DTT is not a useful comparison.

There are already two companies in Ireland with transmission infrastructure set up for DAB. They could go full service in a matter of weeks.

DAB need not be national, it could be regional, or smaller, technically speaking.

if one of these providers was given a licence to run the mux commercially, and they charged a content provider, say 10-15k per year for carriage, then that would probably be viable for niche, specialist-content stations. Certainly doable.

And the return to the mux provider with maybe 10-15 stations would ensure that they repaid their initial investment in a timely manner and were able to run viably.

It's not an expensive medium to do. It is in the UK, but that was their mistake. OfCom over there are currently sponsoring some small-scale dab trials using the very same system pioneered here by Total Broadcast some 5 years ago. OfCom think its a winner, and a way forward.

So do I.

RayserSharp

Dusty Rhodes is currently running a DAB trial in Dublin. The quality is superb. It is not expensive to be on this platform. In fact, compared to what it costs to run on a temporary FM licence, it is great value. Back in the 70s, it was said that FM would never catch on. Transistors only had mw lw and sw. Then along came radio Nova. Now it is being said that DAB wont catch on. Well with FM frequencies now at a premium, DAB represents a very cost effective alternative. DAB radios can be bought for under €20. New cars are coming equipped with DAB receivers. Dusty Rhodes should be supported wholeheartedly in his efforts to bring independent digital broadcasting to Ireland. Go negotiate a price with him and get on the platform and make it work. DAB is very successful in the UK, it could be here too.

RayserSharp

Ivan? Ivan who?

SimonMaher

Rayser has a point here in fairness (although I'm not sure that it's great value!). You don't have to be fully national with the DAB network initially. Start with something that is going to appeal to stations to take carriage initially, even if that means coverage is limited.

What is missing now though (and what has stopped me and others from investing) is the regulatory vacuum that exists. If the possibility exists that the MUX contract could end in the relatively short term then nobody in their right mind is going to invest decent money in providing new services which would attract people to the plaform. BAI need to do their part here and licence a MUX for 10 years. Then, it's up to Dusty or whoever gets the MUX licence to come up with a package and a price to get customers.

A MUX with decent programming, properly marketed could build itself an audience. Much smaller than FM of course, but if it gets the services we want on the air under an operating environment that makes them viable then everybody wins.

Simon

petronius

I think the barrier for the uptake in DAB is also the access to it on receivers, if the Gov./BCI are pushing it then there must be measures taking such as ensuring there are DAB receivers in car radios, and on mobile phones. For most people FM provides what they need in a radio service and the rationale to change for them is not there yet.

PureDaycent

Why go to Dusty for DAB? Did he buy the transmission rights or something?

Fuzzy Clam

petronius wrote: »

I think the barrier for the uptake in DAB is also the access to it on receivers, if the Gov./BCI are pushing it then there must be measures taking such as ensuring there are DAB receivers in car radios, and on mobile phones. For most people FM provides what they need in a radio service and the rationale to change for them is not there yet.

Plenty of receivers in shops. Not aware of DAB on any phone.
Receivers in cars will only follow when nationwide coverage is available and even then no guarrantee of it supplied as standard in Irish vehicles.

Trick of the Tail

I bought a cheapo (but very good) car stereo head unit off EBay.

It has DAB as standard, sounds very nice.

lertsnim

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

Is DAB a dead duck?

It never got going in this part of the country.

total former

The days of people toting around a clunky standalone radio are gone. DAB will never take off because Internet streaming, with all its problems, is a more user friendly system with the transmission infrastructure in place and almost complete market penetration of receivers, plus a far wider range of services.

Listening at home, Saorview and Sky/UPC already provide alternative options.

I don't think there is a commercial incentive or consumer demand for it.

Trick of the Tail

And if your favourite type of music is, say, country and there was a country music station on DAB, wouldn't you want to listen to it?

Please don't suggest you'd listen on 3G or 4G on your mobile phone, since that infrastructure is not fit for that purpose.

Very few people drive around listening to radio off their mobile phone these days, but I am one of them.

And I can tell you it's not reliable, it drops out, buffers, etc.

Those problems would be many times worse if the number of people that a radio station needs to listen to it for it to be viable started trying to listen on their phones.

A mobile phone network is a point to point medium. For mass-audience radio you need point to multipoint.

Otherwise known as 'Broadcast'.

total former

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

And if your favourite type of music is, say, country and there was a country music station on DAB, wouldn't you want to listen to it?

Please don't suggest you'd listen on 3G or 4G on your mobile phone, since that infrastructure is not fit for that purpose.

Very few people drive around listening to radio off their mobile phone these days, but I am one of them.

And I can tell you it's not reliable, it drops out, buffers, etc.

Those problems would be many times worse if the number of people that a radio station needs to listen to it for it to be viable started trying to listen on their phones.

A mobile phone network is a point to point medium. For mass-audience radio you need point to multipoint.

Otherwise known as 'Broadcast'.

Yes, 3G and 4G. It's not ideal by any means but it's the reality of what people are using. People are not using DAB.

You say that we need "broadcast"- we have it, it's called FM. DAB might be a superior technology but there isn't a critical mass of people who care enough about the difference.

Look at Blu-Ray, vastly superior to DVD, but still a marginal product because most people either don't care about or don't have the equipment to benefit from the change, and now it will be strangled by the Internet.
Unless there's a massive change coming, akin to the switch off of analogue TV, I just can't see DAB happening and eventually the mobile Internet infrastructure will get to a point where it is capable of filling the gap.

Trick of the Tail

I never said dab was superior to FM, there's nothing wrong with it.

But there's only so much space on FM, and the business model foisted on the stations by the BAI makes it expensive to do.

Who would not want more choice in stations we can listen to?

And the only way to get more choice is to make it cheaper to do, to attract smaller broadcasters, and dab is the ideal medium for that.

3G and 4G are a lot less than ideal. It will not support many thousands of people listening, and that's that.

DAB should not be feared to be, nor should it be, a replacement for FM. It should be a new band, an addition to FM.

total former

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

I never said dab was superior to FM, there's nothing wrong with it.

But there's only so much space on FM, and the business model foisted on the stations by the BAI makes it expensive to do.

Who would not want more choice in stations we can listen to?

And the only way to get more choice is to make it cheaper to do, to attract smaller broadcasters, and dab is the ideal medium for that.

3G and 4G are a lot less than ideal. It will not support many thousands of people listening, and that's that.

DAB should not be feared to be, nor should it be, a replacement for FM. It should be a new band, an addition to FM.

I agree with all of that. One of the worst days of my life* was getting the Samsung Galaxy S4 and discovering that they'd done away with the FM radio, I hate listening via 3g/4g.

But I just think that DAB has been around for so long without getting any real traction that it's heading the way of BetaMax, DCC, MiniDisc and soon enough BluRay, excellent tech that never really got off the ground.

*Slight exaggeration

Trick of the Tail

DAB has finally got good traction in the UK, and in several major European countries, and in Aus.

The only reason it hasn't developed more here is that the BAI have their thumb up their bum.

The BAI sometimes seems to function more like a support organisation for the FM stations than a regulator, and a while back they asked the FM stations if they'd like any more competition.

The response, surprise surprise, was no, thanks. So the BAI announced that there was no demand for DAB.

So despite two successful trial periods by commercial organisations, there's still no sign of the BAI licensing DAB multiplex operators for a full service.

But despite the BAI's hopes, I don't think it will go away if they ignore it.

end of the road

well in fairness the reason dab has taken off in the uk is choice of stations, as most of the fm stations are a relay of a semi-national or regional station, which would once have been a number of local stations. however its standard dab, and i believe apart from the national stations, the quality for many is rubbish. to be honest for me while i'd like to see dab take off here (i think we will be going with the dab + format thankfully) should it happen, i'm not to bothered if it doesn't, as i can get lots of stations on the net. of course everyone is different and as said in the thread, internet isn't good enough for on the move just yet, all be it me and others will put up with its flaws.

Trick of the Tail

Exactly, content is everything. No one would switch to a new medium for any other reason, and nor should they.

But I'd be careful about wishing too hard for DAB+ though. There is nothing wrong with standard DAB as long as the bitrate is high enough. In fact, because there is less data reduction in mpeg2 than AAC, in some ways it's better.

If you're in Dublin and have a decent DAB radio, it's easy to compare Zenith on 128k standard DAB and on the 64k DAB+.

There's not much in it, but I think the DAB sounds better. It's very much dependent on what has already happened to the audio during its delivery to the multiplex; if it's already been data compressed, it's best to do as little as possible further data reduction.

The reason DAB has got a bad name for quality in the UK is that the mux ops there charge too much per kb, so stations go for the lowest bitrate they can get away with, so you hear music stations at 64k in mono, and that's not good.

If the mux can be run viably with fewer stations squeezed into it, the bitrate can be kept high enough so it still sounds good.

end of the road

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

Exactly, content is everything. No one would switch to a new medium for any other reason, and nor should they.

But I'd be careful about wishing too hard for DAB+ though. There is nothing wrong with standard DAB as long as the bitrate is high enough. In fact, because there is less data reduction in mpeg2 than AAC, in some ways it's better.

If you're in Dublin and have a decent DAB radio, it's easy to compare Zenith on 128k standard DAB and on the 64k DAB+.

There's not much in it, but I think the DAB sounds better. It's very much dependent on what has already happened to the audio during its delivery to the multiplex; if it's already been data compressed, it's best to do as little as possible further data reduction.

The reason DAB has got a bad name for quality in the UK is that the mux ops there charge too much per kb, so stations go for the lowest bitrate they can get away with, so you hear music stations at 64k in mono, and that's not good.

If the mux can be run viably with fewer stations squeezed into it, the bitrate can be kept high enough so it still sounds good.

yes thats true, however for the uk situation, dab+ is more cost effective. at the end of the day stations around 64k is going to be the way. better 64k dab+ then 64k dab mono.

maxwell smart

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Plenty of receivers in shops. Not aware of DAB on any phone.
Receivers in cars will only follow when nationwide coverage is available and even then no guarrantee of it supplied as standard in Irish vehicles.

DAB came as standard in my car but its a pig of a thing to find stations. Constant searching, searching, searching then finding something. It sounds great when I get a station!

Expunge

It's curious that the Norwegians are pressing ahead with a full roll out of DAB, announcing an analog switch off date in two years...
http://radiotoday.co.uk/2015/04/norway-to-switch-of-fm-radio-in-two-years/

And yet their Swedish neighbours reckon the whole thing is a giant pile of expensive poo....
http://radiotoday.co.uk/2015/04/national-audit-devastating-for-dab-in-sweden/

Is there any hope for a sensible and cost effective use of DAB in this country, with such prudent countries as Norway and Sweden in sharp division?

gadget_hq

RTE have DAB for there own stations, and there's still a DAB+ trial running in South Dublin/Wicklow by Total Broadcast.

It would be great to see DAB officially in Ireland, but one thing is the BAI need to decide on which standard DAB or the slightly better DAB+

Currently it is frustrating if you go into any shop in the stores you have to be careful that you purchase a DAB+ compatible unit if you're in an area you can pick up the trial or you'll only be able to receive the RTE stations. Particularly as the likes of tesco and many of the UK stores here just sell DAB boxes from UK - frustrating!

Soarview by BAI's own admission was a wasted opportunity in ireland - no commercial operator could work with RTE Networks! they've got too much power and just want to protect their own. Instead Saorview is just slightly better than the old analogue perhaps and no threat to the likes of sky or upc etc! Unlike freeview in the UK.

maybe one day this will change we can live in hope!?!

hamguy

gadget_hq wrote: »

RTE have DAB for there own stations, and there's still a DAB+ trial running in South Dublin/Wicklow by Total Broadcast.

The Total Broadcast trial is in the South East, and the DB Digital Broadcast trial is in Dublin and Cork.

gadget_hq

hamguy wrote: »

The Total Broadcast trial is in the South East, and the DB Digital Broadcast trial is in Dublin and Cork.

sure though didn't realise it wasn't national on the rte dab trial - so that confirms there really is no point buying a dab radio at all until the BAI fully decide on which one is made the standard. thanks for that clarification hamguy!

hamguy

gadget_hq wrote: »

sure though didn't realise it wasn't national on the rte dab trial - so that confirms there really is no point buying a dab radio at all until the BAI fully decide on which one is made the standard. thanks for that clarification hamguy!

Hi, Sorry I meant semi national! I think the RTE trial is on 3Rock, Kippure, Claremont Cairn, Cork and Limerick.

Its a pity there isn't more movement - when you listen to DAB (when its done properly!) it can sound really good. RTE Gold, Zenith and Rira sound great, no noticeable encoding artefacts.

Trick of the Tail

RTE's isn't a trial, it's permanent.

But it's true the BAI have their thumb fully inserted as far as the future of independent DAB is concerned.

There are two companies who could right now become commercial DAB multiplex operators. The infrastructure is there and working under trial licences (which are issued by ComReg, not the BAI, and are subject to a lot of anti-commercial restrictions).

Just say the word. And don't make it too expensive to have a licence - there's no need to overdo it. If the mux operators don't have to pay huge sums to the regulator then they wouldn't have to charge enormous fees to programme providers, which means we could have a nice industry of diverse, specialist stations operating very quickly.

DAB and DAB+ can co-exist on the same multiplex, so I'd suggest both be used initially, with a view to discontinuing DAB within a year or so.

Most of the newer radios available in shops now are DAB+, luckily, unlike the UK, we don't have a huge legacy ownership of DAB-only radios.

If only the BAI would extract said digit.

gadget_hq

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

RTE's isn't a trial, it's permanent.

But it's true the BAI have their thumb fully inserted as far as the future of independent DAB is concerned.

There are two companies who could right now become commercial DAB multiplex operators. The infrastructure is there and working under trial licences (which are issued by ComReg, not the BAI, and are subject to a lot of anti-commercial restrictions).

Just say the word. And don't make it too expensive to have a licence - there's no need to overdo it. If the mux operators don't have to pay huge sums to the regulator then they wouldn't have to charge enormous fees to programme providers, which means we could have a nice industry of diverse, specialist stations operating very quickly.

DAB and DAB+ can co-exist on the same multiplex, so I'd suggest both be used initially, with a view to discontinuing DAB within a year or so.

Most of the newer radios available in shops now are DAB+, luckily, unlike the UK, we don't have a huge legacy ownership of DAB-only radios.

If only the BAI would extract said digit.

That's really helpful thanks for that! I can't help thinking that RTE or rather than transmission side have too much of a monopoly and I wonder if it would be better served by a independent transmission company, although this would require a massive culture change within RTE & RTE Networks (or whatever they're called now) - this is by BAI's own admission after the Saorview commercial multiplex operator's failure to deal RTE transmission side negations. It would be nice to see Saorview rebirth with commercial multiplex operators though don't you think, when is anyone's guess!?!

end of the road

gadget_hq wrote: »

That's really helpful thanks for that! I can't help thinking that RTE or rather than transmission side have too much of a monopoly and I wonder if it would be better served by a independent transmission company, although this would require a massive culture change within RTE & RTE Networks (or whatever they're called now) - this is by BAI's own admission after the Saorview commercial multiplex operator's failure to deal RTE transmission side negations. It would be nice to see Saorview rebirth with commercial multiplex operators though don't you think, when is anyone's guess!?!

the BAI are the ones refusing to implement the legal framework for digital radio broadcasting. this has nothing to do with mythical monopolies or culture changes in RTE, this is all down to the BAI. there are 2 independant transmission companies total broadcast and i forget what the other is called. they are doing their tests, and only RTE have proceeded so far with a full implementation of digital services. there was a large scale commercial trial around the time RTE started their trial also. i think most commercial broadcasters decided afterwords they weren't interested in proceeding meaning a commercial multiplex didn't happen. i'm sure the current standards for content at least could have been carried over if there had been enough interest allowing them to continue. but now the BAI won't implement a full legal framework to allow any new stations which might be interested to operate via digital radio. Saorview has a lot of potential i agree, but unless the current commercial stations are interested, and the BAI puts in the relevant framework to allow new digital licences, nothing will happen unfortunately

gadget_hq

end of the road wrote: »

the BAI are the ones refusing to implement the legal framework for digital radio broadcasting. this has nothing to do with mythical monopolies or culture changes in RTE, this is all down to the BAI. there are 2 independant transmission companies total broadcast and i forget what the other is called. they are doing their tests, and only RTE have proceeded so far with a full implementation of digital services. there was a large scale commercial trial around the time RTE started their trial also. i think most commercial broadcasters decided afterwords they weren't interested in proceeding meaning a commercial multiplex didn't happen. i'm sure the current standards for content at least could have been carried over if there had been enough interest allowing them to continue. but now the BAI won't implement a full legal framework to allow any new stations which might be interested to operate via digital radio. Saorview has a lot of potential i agree, but unless the current commercial stations are interested, and the BAI puts in the relevant framework to allow new digital licences, nothing will happen unfortunately

sure, though it's not quite true, there isn't two independent transmission companies, RTE Networks (2RN) is a wholly owned subsidiary of RTE, not independent

See section 2.4 of the BAI report on DTT in relation to why Saorview didn't work as effectivly as they had hoped - though the recommendations from COMREG, and to give BAI formal mediation powers in case of a dispute between commercial operators and the transmission side in the report point 5 is that 2RN is sold off to demerged from RTE.

SEE bai.ie/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/20131204_OOCommDTTRpt_v.Final_MT.pdf

end of the road

gadget_hq wrote: »

sure, though it's not quite true, there isn't two independent transmission companies

in terms of dab yes there are. total broadcast and the other i think is digital radio limited.

gadget_hq wrote: »

RTE Networks (2RN) is a wholly owned subsidiary of RTE, not independent

no but thats not a problem. its right that RTE have its own company to look after its services, it provides economies of scale and its cheeper in the long run.

gadget_hq wrote: »

the recommendations from COMREG, and to give BAI formal mediation powers in case of a dispute between commercial operators and the transmission side in the report point 5 is that 2RN is sold off to demerged from RTE.

the BAI have mediation powers i thought, all though the less powers they have the better IMO. there is no need for 2rn to be sold off all though maybe having them automatically responsible for RTE'S transmissions only with the likes of today fm deciding their own providers (which 2rn can bid for) might be a good option.

SpaceTime

Seems there have been "trials" of DAB here go my entire adult life at this stage!

How many trials do the possibly need?!

end of the road

SpaceTime wrote: »

Seeks there have been "trials" of DAB here go my entire adult life at this stage!

How many trials do the possibly need?!

fair point

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly

SpaceTime wrote: »

How many trials do the possibly need?!

Look how many trials there were for DTT for gawdsake

RTE were part of the EBU consortium which developed the technology and yet we were one of the last countries in Europe to roll out a full service.

Seán MacSuibhne

Just wondering are we back to RTÉ only channels DAB again? They are all I can get now!

Seán