Did I do wrong?

ezra_

Driving along near the Dublin mountains today.

Suddenly there was a lot of sleet and the road starts to white up. I slow down (probably doing 50k on a straight road).

Car ahead of me suddenly starts to weave and the next thing its twisting out in the road, going broadside. It hit off the barrier and spins back into the road. Ends up in the ditch on the wrong side of the road.

I had maybe 15m of space between us. I hit the brakes (not hard, but wrong decision?). Back of the car goes and I start fish tailing. To get the car back I have to steer towards the broadsided car (or else I'll end up like him?).

I think I may have been braking still lightly. I can feel the ABS or traction control firing so I guess I may have kept on the brakes. I'm now well over the line but the car is back on a staightish line.

I get the car back with a few meters to spare and manage to steer around the car in front.

The guy is fine. I stop, make sure he is ok (no one else stopped and 10 cars must have passed from when I stopped to when I got over to the car).

Give the guy a lift back into town where he is picked up and arranges a lift.

I've never had this experience before. I did lose control when I saw the car ahead of me go broadside, but I feel that if I didn't brake, I'd have hit him as this was all on a downhill slope.

How are you meant to drive when this happens?

challengemaster

Gears, engine braking and avoid any sharp input that might cause loss of traction. Steer into the skid, and as you found out... don't use any heavy braking.

CiniO

Keeping control of the car on slippery surface like snow or ice is not something you can just describe in post of forum.
You need to practice it.
Unfortunately in Ireland there are seldom any conditions for training, but you can get some courses abroad in the winter.
Definitely worth it.

CiniO

challengemaster wrote: »

Gears, engine braking and avoid any sharp input that might cause loss of traction. Steer into the skid, and as you found out... don't use any heavy braking.

If he needs to brake heavily, then he actually should use heavy braking.
Just keep control of the car with the steering wheel when braking - and with ABS that's usually fairly easy.

ezra_

CiniO wrote: »

If he needs to brake heavily, then he actually should use heavy braking.
Just keep control of the car with the steering wheel when braking - and with ABS that's usually fairly easy.

Thanks guys. I was driving an automatic so engine braking was out.

I didn't feel that I had braked heavily but given that I lost the car, I must have.

challengemaster

CiniO wrote: »

If he needs to brake heavily, then he actually should use heavy braking.

Yeah, I meant in general for trying to keep traction in snowy conditions heavy braking should be avoided (unless necessary as you mention)

CiniO

ezra_ wrote: »

Thanks guys. I was driving an automatic so engine braking was out.

I didn't feel that I had braked heavily but given that I lost the car, I must have.

In short if you need to brake heavily on snow and ice and have ABS (assume you do) don't hesitate. Just step on the brake pedal as hard as you can and ABS will do the work for you. You just need to try to keep car going in direction you want with the steering wheel, and that might be the tricky part with might require a training beforehand.

CiniO

challengemaster wrote: »

Yeah, I meant in general for trying to keep traction in snowy conditions heavy braking should be avoided (unless necessary as you mention)

Obviously heavy braking should be always avoided even in normal dry conditions, unless necessary.

But to be honest, on the snow or ice, engine braking can actually lead to a skid if you use too low gear, and it's not always so easy to feel which gear is good and which is too low.
That's why on cars with ABS, it's probably not a bad idea to press clutch (put neutral gear) and brake using brakes gently if you want to slow down.
If braking force exceeds traction, ABS will work, and you'll still have control with your steering.

If you f.e. drive at 40km/h on ice on 3rd gear, and reduce to 2nd and declutch, what is quite likely to happen is that driving wheels will actually spin slower than actual car speed and therefore you will either loose steering completely (FWD) or have you end brake away (RWD).

So my advice would be to use brakes and advantage ABS gives us to maintain control.

punisher5112

ABS is useless in some conditions.

When we had the bad snow 2010, 2011 abs was useless as I found out the car brakes did not function at all because the wheels couldn't get any traction.

There are different situations for all types of weather.

If you are driving auto in that sort of weather lock in a low gear or use semi auto.
Also better to engage w winter mode if on it.

As said above steer into skid keeps speed low do not brake hard and smooth movement accelerating and braking

CiniO

punisher5112 wrote: »

ABS is useless in some conditions.

When we had the bad snow 2010, 2011 abs was useless as I found out the car brakes did not function at all because the wheels couldn't get any traction.

So the brakes didn't function at all, because wheels couldn't get any grip, not because of ABS.

Indeed in deep snow, ABS actually significantly increases braking distance compared to braking with locked wheels which just dig deep into the snow.
But besides, on compacted snow and ice, braking with ABS is quite comparable to braking without it, only difference, that with ABS you can still have control over steering, and without it you hardly can unless you are really well trained.

As said above steer into skid

It's great in theory, but I don't know a single driver who would be able to recover from the skid by steering towards the skid when doing it first time.
You really need considerable amount of training to be able to do it correctly.
It's kinda like any other task, sport etc..
If you never windsurf, you can not just hop on the board, lift the sail and go.
You need practice to be able to do it, and it's the same with being in control in a skid.

punisher5112

Brakes were working but ABS kicked in and it wouldn't let them.

Its hard to explain but this was low speed road was complete shiny ice and I had to in the end put the car over the otther side of road and aimed to hit kerb or light pole rather then take the 2 cars in front out along with going out into a busier road.


Driving in fields was a great way to unnderstand skids and that also great fun

Jesus.

OP, you didn't crash so well done.

Seeing as this thread is so titled, Cinio, I got a call from someone today broken down in Dublin City Center. He tried getting a tow truck but they weren't answering so I went in and towed him out to Portmarnock.

Is it okay to toe someone in a city center?

CiniO

punisher5112 wrote: »

Brakes were working but ABS kicked in and it wouldn't let them.

Its hard to explain but this was low speed road was complete shiny ice and I had to in the end put the car over the otther side of road and aimed to hit kerb or light pole rather then take the 2 cars in front out along with going out into a busier road.

I think I experiences something like that on ice as well, where I felt ABS made brakes completely disappear.
But I was trying to convince myself that it was just that slippery that without ABS it wouldn't be better.

In general, fairly often when I drive on snow I turn my ABS off completely to enjoy driving more and have more control over car

Driving in fields was a great way to unnderstand skids and that also great fun

I'm sure it was.
I prefer the snow though.
I think I spend a fortune in my life on fuel driving around snowy forest tracks and empty roads skidding all the time and learning.
When I was younger I remember sometimes we could go out with friends on snowy days and practice driving all night long burining whole tank of fuel, and that would happen multiple times over winter. Not in Ireland though.

And I still every winter go to find a empty place and train my skills.
This helps me to keep better control over my car in normal traffic then.

CiniO

Jesus. wrote: »

OP, you didn't crash so well done.

Seeing as this thread is so titled, Cinio, I got a call from someone today broken down in Dublin City Center. He tried getting a tow truck but they weren't answering so I went in and towed him out to Portmarnock.

Is it okay to toe someone in a city center?

I never heard or seen any law which would prohibit towing with a towing rope, no matter if it's rural place or city centre.
But surely someone will argue.

walus

The fact is that the front wheels can do only one thing well at the time: braking, accelerating or steering. If you try doing two things at once you run into trouble of controlling the car. I know that ABS will allow you for some additional control margin but on a summer tyres (99% cars in ireland have those fitted) and compacted snow or ice it still very ineffective.
The solution is simple do one thing at the time - brake before bend, steer around it and accelerate coming out. Always works for me.

YbFocus

The problem i think here was the rate at which you brought the brakes on.
You weight shifted to the front and the back got light and let go.
You can use full brakes but bring them in quickly and progressively, not a mad stamp.

Sounds like you gathered up a bad situation rather well though.
Fair play

Spook_ie

my 2c, I drive an automatic and use the engine for breaking on ice and snow. Lock the car into a lower gear BEFORE you start going downhill or have allowed the speed to build up.

The idea is to control your momentum before you need to rather than when it's too late.

There are many read abouts available but nothing will show you more than experience, take the car out to an empty car park next time theres a little snow and experiment.

ABS brakes, will not instill confidence in you unless you brake firmly, because they take time for the wheel to start revolving again for it to reappy, so it takes a longer distance to stop in snow/ice, so you need to brake earlier


Consider investing in Winter tyres they will improve brake/steering performance but if not willing/able to go the whole 9 yards at least get tyres on the car with minimum of 4-5 mm of tread if they're getting low.


Many people asked me how I managed to drive in the harsh winter of 4 years ago and I always give them the same answer

Driving in snow is the easy part, it's the starting, stopping and steering that you need to worry about