Article: Standing room only: Irish Rail & DART carriages 'out of service' as passenge

monument

From the Sindo:

"More than two dozen Irish Rail and 10 Dart carriages are lying idle despite chronic overcrowding on commuter trains in the capital. The carriages were retired during the height of the recession as passenger numbers fell."

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/standing-room-only-irish-rail-and-dart-carriages-out-of-service-as-passenger-numbers-return-to-boomtime-levels-31030805.html

devnull

There are more DART carriages than that lying idle at peak time, that is just the Alstom class which was withdrawn for being unreliable.

Even evening peak during the week, you can see around 16-20 carriages, sometimes more parked up at Fairview Depot

There is little evening peak Malahide branch trains running over 4 cars.

The famous 5.10 from Bray to Malahide continues to suffer from chronic overcrowding that often leads to leaving people behind.

mickydoomsux

The bigger problem here is that they let a good few drivers out of the company on VS at the beginning of the downturn and didn't replace them because services were also peeled back at the same time.

There will be a bit of a lag between new drivers being trained and services being restored, if that happens at all.

loyatemu

they're still running the original Darts in 6 car formation at peak times - these can run as 8 car trains.

devnull

loyatemu wrote: »

they're still running the original Darts in 6 car formation at peak times - these can run as 8 car trains.

Some are still four at peak times.

Not sure how lack of drivers is to blame for the dart issues since most trains are not operating at maximum length.

trellheim

exactly... and they could fix the 8500s

Captain Chaos

trellheim wrote: »

exactly... and they could fix the 8500s

It's the Alstom built 8200s that are lemons and they are beyond fixing, scrapping is all that is left for them, they cost too much to operate as they are a small fleet with non standard parts and are not compatible with the 8100s. Nothing wrong with the 8500s except the seats, they are the most reliable DART units in service. The 8200s were put up for sale along with 2700 DMUs, all Alstom built units by the way, no one wanted them and seeing as no private operator can enter the market thye are just rotting in Inchicore.

The are DART units in Fairview that have not moved in 6 months. I have seen set 8623/8523+8524/8624 in the layup siding at the south end of Fairview depot, it has not moved since last October and the paintwork has gotten very shabby on it.

There is also about 3 8100s units stored as "surplus to requirements",

The fact they they have now fitted hand slings to the 8100s indicates that they are happy to run sort crush load trains and have no intention to putting trains back to full strength. Disgrace, they should be looking at gaining passenger numbers not driving people back into cars with the cheapest fuel prices for years yet fares are at a record high unless you use Leap and are getting fare prices from 1 year ago.

Even yesterday afternoon at 4pm, a south bound DART at Killester was a 4 car 8510 sets and it was crush loaded to the doors. No excuse for that.

end of the road

i can only think of here and parts of the uk where this nonsense of short formed trains on high passenger routes is the norm. in fairness to the UK they seem to be slowly trying to deal with it, all be it needed to be done years ago and the nonsense they have to go through to procure trains means it takes even more time. obviously i agree with the statement we need to grow passengers, thats a given.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

i can only think of here and parts of the uk where this nonsense of short formed trains on high passenger routes is the norm. in fairness to the UK they seem to be slowly trying to deal with it, all be it needed to be done years ago and the nonsense they have to go through to procure trains means it takes even more time. obviously i agree with the statement we need to grow passengers, thats a given.

The UK Problem is entirely different.

In the UK there is a shortage of rolling stock because there is simply no stock to use because of the fact TOC's are not allowed to order their own trains and all existing ones are in use.

In Ireland there is a shortage of rolling stock because the operator decides not to use the stock it has.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

The UK Problem is entirely different.

In the UK there is a shortage of rolling stock because there is simply no stock to use because of the fact TOC's are not allowed to order their own trains and all existing ones are in use.

In Ireland there is a shortage of rolling stock because the operator decides not to use the stock it has.

yes i know, but there was no point in me mentioning the obvious about irish rail, its been said all ready. realistically the TOCS not being able to order their own trains exists for the reason that the trains can be simply turned over to the new operator when the franchize is up. them and the rolling stock leasing companies might be best for another thread though as it is an interesting discussion

devnull

Of course, but I can't see any TOC's buying trains even if they were allowed, since the cost is just too much. Train companies should be able to sign leasing deals for stock over the whole of their franchise though since the current system is completely broken.

It's ridiculous situation when most of the franchises predicted the current passenger numbers and already planned a rolling stock strategy to deal with them. The Department then turned down such plans or watered them down saying they would lead to overcapacity and thus we have overcrowding.

Then to top it all off, the department then turns around to the operators and asks them to explain why their services are so overcrowded and to do something about it.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

Of course, but I can't see any TOC's buying trains even if they were allowed, since the cost is just too much. Train companies should be able to sign leasing deals for stock over the whole of their franchise though since the current system is completely broken.

It's ridiculous situation when most of the franchises predicted the current passenger numbers and already planned a rolling stock strategy to deal with them. The Department then turned down such plans or watered them down saying they would lead to overcapacity and thus we have overcrowding.

Then to top it all off, the department then turns around to the operators and asks them to explain why their services are so overcrowded and to do something about it.

the operators are only being used to take the heat when things go wrong. the government gets the praise when things go right

Atlantic Dawn

The DART with its heat turned on full at all times, Japanese carriages designed with seating for non European sized people is a disgrace, any quality control or customer service surveys done ever by the people spending millions for this third world sheite?

Decuc500

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Japanese carriages designed with seating for non European sized people is a disgrace

You might as well be sitting on the floor as on those seats, they're so small and uncomfortable.

I've said it before on here, the Northside evening rush hour is a disgrace, almost all 4 carriage trains and people being left behind. I notice that after the fuss raised by Southside TD's a couple of years ago most rush hour trains to the Southside are now 6 or 8 carriages. Maybe the elected officials on the north side of the city aren't doing enough?

Captain Chaos

They say they don't have the drivers yet look at all the extra shunting required every day changing sets around.

Some afternoons during the week around 3pm I end up on a mashed 2 car DART northbound from Pearse, then we get to Connolly and a 4 car set is sitting empty waiting for us. So a driver had to get a 4 car set out of the depot, drive it to Connolly and wait for us to transfer to it to carry on the service. Then that 2 car set goes empty to Fairview after us.

Why bother with 2 car sets at all, no justification for them any time of the day or night or day of the week.

The same happened on Friday night, I was on a packed 8 car set south bound. We arrive into Connolly and are told only then we have to transfer into a 4 car set waiting for us! There wasn't even enough room in train we were on and were told to get into one half the size while the 8 car set runs back empty to the depot and do nothing for the night.

It's madness, that is not how you cut costs. It is a good way to run your business into the ground though.

loyatemu

surely the timetable requires the same number of drivers regardless of how many carriages are on each service?

AngryLips

Decuc500 wrote: »

I notice that after the fuss raised by Southside TD's a couple of years ago most rush hour trains to the Southside are now 6 or 8 carriages. Maybe the elected officials on the north side of the city aren't doing enough?

Have you complained to your local TD?

Hilly Bill

Decuc500 wrote: »

You might as well be sitting on the floor as on those seats, they're so small and uncomfortable.

I've said it before on here, the Northside evening rush hour is a disgrace, almost all 4 carriage trains and people being left behind. I notice that after the fuss raised by Southside TD's a couple of years ago most rush hour trains to the Southside are now 6 or 8 carriages. Maybe the elected officials on the north side of the city aren't doing enough?[/QUOTE]

You do realise that those trains serve the northside as well dont you?

A complaining TD wont change anything. They wont put on extra trains or carriages just because some TD somewhere was giving out.

devnull

Decuc500 wrote: »

.I've said it before on here, the Northside evening rush hour is a disgrace, almost all 4 carriage trains and people being left behind. I notice that after the fuss raised by Southside TD's a couple of years ago most rush hour trains to the Southside are now 6 or 8 carriages. Maybe the elected officials on the north side of the city aren't doing enough?

The funny thing is that the services on the shoulder of peak, are of higher capaity, presumably to allow high capacity on their return working to the southside.

Train lengths by time departing Connolly to Malahide tend to be this.
15:54 - 6 cars
16:24 - 6 cars
16:54 - 4 cars
17:24 - 4 cars
17:54 - 4 cars
18:42 - 4 cars

I don't take the Howth Branch enough to know their diagrams very well, but I know that the 16.09 is 4 cars.

Morning isn't a problem, my train is normally 6-8 cars, but evening is poor as others have said. I switched my hours so it's not a problem for me, but when I have to get the 17.54 it can be a struggle to get on.

end of the road

Hilly Bill wrote: »

A complaining TD wont change anything. They wont put on extra trains or carriages just because some TD somewhere was giving out.

but they should do it for their customers. you know, to grow the business again and to stop people leaving for the bus or car because they are crammed in like sardines unnecessarily

Hilly Bill

end of the road wrote: »

but they should do it for their customers. you know, to grow the business again and to stop people leaving for the busses or car because they are crammed in like sardines unnecessarily

You could have an 8 car crammed in the mornings, what then?

Eugene Norman

devnull wrote: »

The funny thing is that the services on the shoulder of peak, are of higher capaity, presumably to allow high capacity on their return working to the southside.

Train lengths by time departing Connolly to Malahide tend to be this.
15:54 - 6 cars
16:24 - 6 cars
16:54 - 4 cars
17:24 - 4 cars
17:54 - 4 cars
18:42 - 4 cars

I don't take the Howth Branch enough to know their diagrams very well, but I know that the 16.09 is 4 cars.

Morning isn't a problem, my train is normally 6-8 cars, but evening is poor as others have said. I switched my hours so it's not a problem for me, but when I have to get the 17.54 it can be a struggle to get on.

That's shocking. All of those trains should be 6-8 carriages.

Eugene Norman

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You could have an 8 car crammed in the mornings, what then?

Nobody would blame them then. When I am packed on a train which has fewer than the max is when I get pissed off.

stehyl15

Its stupid why you can't use the gangways on the dart trains then people could move up to the next carriage if its too crowded.

end of the road

they removed the gangways from the 2800s as well. all though they are down in limerick now but operating as 2 car. still though, they are useful as i can attest to

end of the road

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You could have an 8 car crammed in the mornings, what then?

yes, but if that happens then fair enough, as that is the maximum all platforms can take i believe

Captain Chaos

stehyl15 wrote: »

Its stupid why you can't use the gangways on the dart trains then people could move up to the next carriage if its too crowded.

You can use them, yes there is a sign saying don't when the train is in motion but some people (tend to be of the anti social nature) do use them at times.

Just the cab ends don't have them for design reasons.

end of the road

Captain Chaos wrote: »

You can use them, yes there is a sign saying don't when the train is in motion but some people (tend to be of the anti social nature) do use them at times.

Just the cab ends don't have them for design reasons.

you can't move between sets on any of the dart units is that right? just the cars all be it your technically not supposed to? funnily there isn't an issue on the arrow units between the cars on a set.

Captain Chaos

end of the road wrote: »

you can't move between sets on any of the dart units is that right? just the cars all be it your technically not supposed to? funnily there isn't an issue on the arrow units between the cars on a set.

Yeah basically, you can move to any coach within a set. So a 6 car 8100 formation for example you can go between /1 and 2/ 3 and 4/ 5 and 6/ you can't go between 2 and 3 or 4 and 5 as that is where the cabs are. On a 8 car 8500 formation you can get between 1,2,3 and 4/ then 5,6,7, and 8. Can't move between 4 and 5.

I have always found the 8100 gangways as suspect looking, they used to freak me out as a child. They are tight and narrow compared to modern gangways. On some tight curves and points they don't leave you with much room at all if you happen to be in one, like leaving platform 6 south bound at Connolly or entering platform 7. The coaches appear to slide off each other
laterally and watching from inside I don't think I'd like to be there when that happens. Suppose that's why the signs say only use them when the train is stopped.

end of the road

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Yeah basically, you can move to any coach within a set. So a 6 car 8100 formation for example you can go between /1 and 2/ 3 and 4/ 5 and 6/ you can't go between 2 and 3 or 4 and 5 as that is where the cabs are. On a 8 car 8500 formation you can get between 1,2,3 and 4/ then 5,6,7, and 8. Can't move between 4 and 5.

I have always found the 8100 gangways as suspect looking, they used to freak me out as a child. They are tight and narrow compared to modern gangways. On some tight curves and points they don't leave you with much room at all if you happen to be in one, like leaving platform 6 south bound at Connolly or entering platform 7. The coaches appear to slide off each other
laterally and watching from inside I don't think I'd like to be there when that happens. Suppose that's why the signs say only use them when the train is stopped.

ah right. wonder why they went with front gangways on the arrow units?

foggy_lad

devnull wrote: »

The funny thing is that the services on the shoulder of peak, are of higher capaity, presumably to allow high capacity on their return working to the southside.

Train lengths by time departing Connolly to Malahide tend to be this.
15:54 - 6 cars
16:24 - 6 cars
16:54 - 4 cars
17:24 - 4 cars
17:54 - 4 cars
18:42 - 4 cars

I don't take the Howth Branch enough to know their diagrams very well, but I know that the 16.09 is 4 cars.

Morning isn't a problem, my train is normally 6-8 cars, but evening is poor as others have said. I switched my hours so it's not a problem for me, but when I have to get the 17.54 it can be a struggle to get on.

They probably expect their more valued northside customers from Malahide and Portmarnock to get the Drogheda commuter trains. The problem with that is those trains have also been shortened and are usually packed worse than the Darts.

devnull

Thing is the commuter trains are not possible for everyone depending on where they board or alight

Decuc500

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You do realise that those trains serve the northside as well dont you?

Yes, but I'm obviously talking about rush hour. Those trains serve the Northside outside of rush hour. An 8 carriage dart leaving Pearse to Bray at say 5:30 will be returning through Pearse at around 7:15, 7:30? Which is outside of rush hour. That train would probably be shortened at Connolly also.

Decuc500

AngryLips wrote: »

Have you complained to your local TD?

Yes.

Hilly Bill

Decuc500 wrote: »

Yes, but I'm obviously talking about rush hour. Those trains serve the Northside outside of rush hour. An 8 carriage dart leaving Pearse to Bray at say 5:30 will be returning through Pearse at around 7:15, 7:30? Which is outside of rush hour. That train would probably be shortened at Connolly also.

They dont start in Pearse do they.

Decuc500

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They dont start in Pearse do they.

I don’t see your point.

Isn’t this whole discussion about rush hour trains being shortened?

Obviously you’d have 8 carriage trains running from Howth/Malahide to Pearse for the evening rush hour Southbound.
But how are 8 carriage trains helping Northside commuters in this case? There would be very few people using these trains until they reach Connolly.

stehyl15

Trains should be split up at rush hour with southbound trains going from conolly-bray/greystones and northbound trains going from grand canal dock-howth/malahide. They should have 6 cars. This would make far more sense so you won't have southbound empty pasing through the northside and vice-versa.

devnull

That's a terrible idea and would cause more problems than it solves due to people have to change trains and turning trains

Captain Chaos

devnull wrote: »

That's a terrible idea and would cause more problems than it solves due to people have to change trains and turning trains

Actually that happens already and you don't actually have to "turn trains" at all. 29ks and 22k turn around all day on the points between Pearse and Grand canal Dock, even during the morning and evening peak.

As it is passengers are made to change DARTs at Connolly when the change set lengths and enter/leave service.

DARTs should have longer sets in service an hour earlier than they do now and at least an hour later. There should be nothing shorter than 6 cars trains operating after 3pm and up till 7pm.

devnull

The changing of trains to a shorter one generally occurs outside peak though, where it's easier to do that and the lines are quieter, try and do all those Darts during peak and things would soon come to a halt.

One thing that really needs to be stopped though is the changing of drivers at fairview depot which often results in an on time dart at Connolly arriving 5 minutes late at Clontarf. It hsould be odne at Clontarf Road.

And before anyone says it cannot for safety reasons, I see many people crossing the tracks from that depot and to the trains on the other side many times, it's pure lazyness.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

The changing of trains to a shorter one generally occurs outside peak though, where it's easier to do that and the lines are quieter, try and do all those Darts during peak and things would soon come to a halt.

One thing that really needs to be stopped though is the changing of drivers at fairview depot which often results in an on time dart at Connolly arriving 5 minutes late at Clontarf. It hsould be odne at Clontarf Road.

And before anyone says it cannot for safety reasons, I see many people crossing the tracks from that depot and to the trains on the other side many times, it's pure lazyness.

what is pure lazyness and how? how are they supposed to get to the trains on the other side if they can't cross the tracks?

beauf

The docklands train is also packed at peak. Empty off peak. Same with all the commuter trains from D.15. Been like that for decades.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

what is pure lazyness and how? how are they supposed to get to the trains on the other side if they can't cross the tracks?

Thats my point.

They are able to get to trains on the other side by crossing the track.

But they say they cannot walk to Clontarf Road station to change drivers, and instead must make a further stop at the depot because they cannot cross the track.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

The changing of trains to a shorter one generally occurs outside peak though, where it's easier to do that and the lines are quieter, try and do all those Darts during peak and things would soon come to a halt.

One thing that really needs to be stopped though is the changing of drivers at fairview depot which often results in an on time dart at Connolly arriving 5 minutes late at Clontarf. It hsould be odne at Clontarf Road.

And before anyone says it cannot for safety reasons, I see many people crossing the tracks from that depot and to the trains on the other side many times, it's pure lazyness.

I agree, it's lazyness and greed. For a northbound change the driver would have to walk to the end of the platform killester end and southbound just to the shed end of the southbound platform. They were asked to do this a few years ago but refused unless they got around 8 grand i think it was to change but they got refused. As it is , all they do is walk across the shed and out onto the platform, an extra few meters is too much for them even though its closer than where they parked their cars.

SeanW

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You could have an 8 car crammed in the mornings, what then?

It would still be better than a crammed 6 car ...

MGWR

devnull wrote: »

There are more DART carriages than that lying idle at peak time, that is just the Alstom class which was withdrawn for being unreliable.

Even evening peak during the week, you can see around 16-20 carriages, sometimes more parked up at Fairview Depot

There is little evening peak Malahide branch trains running over 4 cars.

The famous 5.10 from Bray to Malahide continues to suffer from chronic overcrowding that often leads to leaving people behind.

Meanwhile, all that weekend railway closing for the purpose of lengthening train station platforms to accommodate eight-car trains goes to utter waste because funds were allocated for buying new rolling stock to replace perfectly-good trailer carriages rather than rebuilding "unreliable" EMUs into a reliable state (never mind leaning on Bombardier/Alstom to fix the trains' problems while warranty repairs could be availed of).