Insurance Query

mothoin

My Girlfriends granny is importing her car from cyprus, She is a British citizen, so will qualify for 0 vrt, but can't transfer the car into anyone elses name for six months(as far as I can tell)

Granny is elderly, and can't get insurance as her licence is revoked, but the car is intended to be used to ferry her around, some last semblance of independance, still owning her own car, is there a way to insure this car with policy without transferring the ownership?

hope its clear, Cheers

CiniO

Probably not... (but open to correction)
Another pure nonsense of the system in Ireland where person can not legally have a car in use without holding a driving licence.

Also in relation to 0 VRT rate - this applies provided person importing a car used it for the last 6 months in country where he/she is moving from. Was you gf's granny using the car in cyprus over last 6 months?

challengemaster

mothoin wrote: »

My Girlfriends granny is importing her car from cyprus, She is a British citizen, so will qualify for 0 vrt, but can't transfer the car into anyone elses name for six months(as far as I can tell)

British citizenship has nothing to do with it.

To qualify for relief the applicant must:
 in the case of relief from the payment of VRT have had his/her normal residence outside
the State for a period greater than 6 months or, in the case of relief from the payment of
CCT duty and VAT, outside the EU for a continuous period of 12 months;
 have transferred his/her residence permanently to the State;
 be the owner of the vehicle/s at the time of transfer;
 have had possession and actual use of the vehicle/s:
 outside the State for at least 6 months prior to transfer in the case of relief from
the payment of VRT, or
 at the former normal place of residence outside the State for 6 months prior to
transfer in the case of relief from the payment of CCT duty and VAT;
 not be a student returning to the State having attended a school, university or other
educational or vocational establishment abroad;
 not be a person who was living abroad in order to carry out a task of definite duration of
less than one year;
 in the case of VRT relief, not have availed of the relief within five years of the granting
of such relief where the applicant went abroad for the purpose of carrying out a task of
duration of one year or more and whose personal ties remained in the State during that
time.

To qualify for relief the vehicle/s must:
 have been acquired duty-paid i.e. with all local taxes paid and not refunded4
;
 have arrived in the State within one year of the date of transfer of residence;
 not reflect any commercial/business interest of the applicant

Granny is elderly, and can't get insurance as her licence is revoked, but the car is intended to be used to ferry her around, some last semblance of independance, still owning her own car, is there a way to insure this car with policy without transferring the ownership?

hope its clear, Cheers

Nope, must transfer it.

CiniO wrote: »

Probably not... (but open to correction)
Another pure nonsense of the system in Ireland where person can not legally have a car in use without holding a driving licence.

It's to do with insurable interest. You can't have insurable interest in something you don't own.

mothoin

CiniO wrote: »

Probably not... (but open to correction)
Another pure nonsense of the system in Ireland where person can not legally have a car in use without holding a driving licence.

Also in relation to 0 VRT rate - this applies provided person importing a car used it for the last 6 months in country where he/she is moving from. Was you gf's granny using the car in cyprus over last 6 months?

Thanks, it is nonsense really isn't it, sorry yea the car has been used in cyprus, has been owned by granny since new in 2008

mothoin

I think that is question answered really, she can bring the car in, change the plates, get the relief and transfer ownership to my girlfriend, who can then insure the car, am I right?

bazz26

If she wants VRT exemption then she cannot transfer ownership to someone else for at least 12 months from the date of registration here.

CiniO

challengemaster wrote: »

It's to do with insurable interest. You can't have insurable interest in something you don't own.

What does it have to do with insurable interest in something you don't own?
I was referring to situation where car owner who doesn't hold a driving licence, is not able to insure a car.
No matter if they holds a licence, they still should be able to insure, shouldn't they?

CiniO

mothoin wrote: »

I think that is question answered really, she can bring the car in, change the plates, get the relief and transfer ownership to my girlfriend, who can then insure the car, am I right?

After 12 months of importing she can.
Not earlier.

challengemaster

CiniO wrote: »

What does it have to do with insurable interest in something you don't own?
I was referring to situation where car owner who doesn't hold a driving licence, is not able to insure a car.
No matter if they holds a licence, they still should be able to insure, shouldn't they?

1: Nobody else can insure the vehicle because they don't own it - ie. they don't have insurable interest in the vehicle, so cannot insure it as they would then stand to benefit from a loss.

2: You need to have a driving licence to drive. You also need insurance to drive. If you're not the intended main driver of the vehicle (as is the case in the OP), you should not be the one insuring that vehicle. See point 1.

quadrifoglio verde

challengemaster wrote: »

British citizenship has nothing to do with it.








Nope, must transfer it.


It's to do with insurable interest. You can't have insurable interest in something you don't own.

Surely though car insurance should insure the driver and not the car.
Its be a much better system if you could insure the driver to drive certain types of cars. Eg band a is 50bhp. Band b is 100bhp etc.

CiniO

challengemaster wrote: »

1: Nobody else can insure the vehicle because they don't own it - ie. they don't have insurable interest in the vehicle, so cannot insure it as they would then stand to benefit from a loss.

2: You need to have a driving licence to drive. You also need insurance to drive. If you're not the intended main driver of the vehicle (as is the case in the OP), you should not be the one insuring that vehicle. See point 1.

Why?


OP's example is perfect case of this nonsense.

An old person who owns a car, but doesn't drive anymore - doesn't hold a driving licence.
Person wants to keep the car, and have someone else to drive it for her.
Why on earth is this not possible in Ireland?
Can you think of any reason? Because I can't.


Imagine similar hypothetical situation.
Let's say I have a car which I like. Unfortunately I loose my driving licence (drink driving, points, health, whatever). So from now on I can not drive my car.
But let's say I still need a transport, so I decide to get a person who's going to be my driver (let's assume I can afford it).

And what now?
I can not have the car insured, as I don't have a driving licence.
And my driver can not have a car insured, as he doesn't own it.

What are we supposed to do?

Completely flawed system.

sunnysoutheast

mothoin wrote: »

I think that is question answered really, she can bring the car in, change the plates, get the relief and transfer ownership to my girlfriend, who can then insure the car, am I right?

I would ensure that the criteria set down for transfer of residence and evidence for same can be satisfied first. Form vrt_tor sets it all out.the car has to have been used, taxed etc. for at least six months and the person bringing it in must genuinely be changing residence, they will look for property transactions, bank statements etc. Think you have to NCT the car too if >4 years.

As regards transfer of ownership after exemption is granted this cannot take place within 12 months unless vrt is paid first or Revenue agree to it in writing. Not sure if the situation you outline will qualify.

To Elland Back

CiniO wrote: »

Probably not... (but open to correction)
Another pure nonsense of the system in Ireland where person can not legally have a car in use without holding a driving licence.?

That's not true. You can have an 'insured excluded' policy. It is not something you can purchase, but normally arises when the insured loses his licence (age/health etc) but the policy is kept going to allow named drivers use the vehicle. All with the insurers agreement of course

challengemaster

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Surely though car insurance should insure the driver and not the car.
Its be a much better system if you could insure the driver to drive certain types of cars. Eg band a is 50bhp. Band b is 100bhp etc.

It would benefit the drivers, but not the insurers. Hence why it'll never happen.

Think about it for a second - you can easily have 2 cars that fall into the same "band" based on bhp, but 1 could be multiple times more risk than the other. Example: Civic, glanza, etc etc. Anything currently highly loaded.

I've no idea how thats taken into account in other countries.

CiniO wrote: »

Completely flawed system.

Just explaining how it is, not getting into a debate over it.

You are free to leave the country at any time, seeing as you have so many complaints about it

CiniO

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Surely though car insurance should insure the driver and not the car.
Its be a much better system if you could insure the driver to drive certain types of cars. Eg band a is 50bhp. Band b is 100bhp etc.

challengemaster wrote: »

It would benefit the drivers, but not the insurers. Hence why it'll never happen.

It could happen if government decided to do something with it.
Car insurance business is not exactly fully open market thing, as every car user need to avail of it. Therefore once insurers know they'll have customers no matter what, they can do whatever they like.

If car insurance is obligatory, there should also be quite strong regulations in relation to what insurers can do and what they can't to make this market competitive both for insurers and clients.
Unfortunately in Ireland this is not the case.

Think about it for a second - you can easily have 2 cars that fall into the same "band" based on bhp, but 1 could be multiple times more risk than the other. Example: Civic, glanza, etc etc. Anything currently highly loaded.

I've no idea how thats taken into account in other countries.

In most other countries (in Europe anyway) it's the car that gets insured, not driver.
So once you are car owner, you purchase a policy for the car, and this policy allows anyone to drive it.
That's the most natural system and it works perfectly in other places. There's no problems with uninsured drivers, being unable to get policy, and other cr@p you experience here.

Just explaining how it is, not getting into a debate over it.

You are free to leave the country at any time, seeing as you have so many complaints about it

O thank you. I'm really glad you won't be stopping me here. However for now I'll decide to stay if you don't mind.

Del2005

mothoin wrote: »

My Girlfriends granny is importing her car from cyprus, She is a British citizen, so will qualify for 0 vrt, but can't transfer the car into anyone elses name for six months(as far as I can tell)

Granny is elderly, and can't get insurance as her licence is revoked, but the car is intended to be used to ferry her around, some last semblance of independance, still owning her own car, is there a way to insure this car with policy without transferring the ownership?

hope its clear, Cheers

Depending on when her licence was revoked she may [url=file:///C:/Users/dpmaguir/Downloads/vrt-manual-section-02.pdf]not qualify[/url].

2.1.1.2 Eligibility Criteria
To qualify for relief the applicant must:
 in the case of relief from the payment of VRT have had his/her normal residence outside
the State for a period greater than 6 months or, in the case of relief from the payment of
CCT duty and VAT, outside the EU for a continuous period of 12 months;
 have transferred his/her residence permanently to the State;
 be the owner of the vehicle/s at the time of transfer;
 have had possession and actual use of the vehicle/s:
 outside the State for at least 6 months prior to transfer in the case of relief from
the payment of VRT, or
 at the former normal place of residence outside the State for 6 months prior to
transfer in the case of relief from the payment of CCT duty and VAT;

I can't see any benefit in bringing a LHD car over here to ferry someone around, for the cost of getting it to Ireland you'd have nice taxed and tested car, unless it's been specially modified.

mothoin

Del2005 wrote: »

Depending on when her licence was revoked she may [url=file:///C:/Users/dpmaguir/Downloads/vrt-manual-section-02.pdf]not qualify[/url].



I can't see any benefit in bringing a LHD car over here to ferry someone around, for the cost of getting it to Ireland you'd have nice taxed and tested car, unless it's been specially modified.

They use rhd Cars in Cyprus and drive on the same as us, actually alot of stolen Cars from here and the UK end up there!

CiniO

Del2005 wrote: »

Depending on when her licence was revoked she may [url=file:///C:/Users/dpmaguir/Downloads/vrt-manual-section-02.pdf]not qualify[/url].

Fact that she didn't have a licence doesn't mean she didn't have full use of the vehicle. She just could have someone else driving it for her.

I can't see any benefit in bringing a LHD car over here to ferry someone around, for the cost of getting it to Ireland you'd have nice taxed and tested car, unless it's been specially modified.

Cyprus is RHD

Del2005

CiniO wrote: »

Fact that she didn't have a licence doesn't mean she didn't have full use of the vehicle. She just could have someone else driving it for her.

The quote from revenue is actual use, someone else had actual use of the car she just sits in it.

corktina

it has to be possible to do this. suppose I'm really rich and have a stroke. Can I not employ a chauffeur to drive me round in my roller? same situation as OPs granny.

CiniO

Del2005 wrote: »

The quote from revenue is actual use, someone else had actual use of the car she just sits in it.

Where does it say that "actual use" of the car means that person is driving?

Del2005

corktina wrote: »

it has to be possible to do this. suppose I'm really rich and have a stroke. Can I not employ a chauffeur to drive me round in my roller? same situation as OPs granny.

Anyone can hire who they want to drive their vehicles, or they can just let them drive, but the revenue states that for an exemption for VRT the person has to have had actual use of the vehicle. Sitting in the back isn't using the vehicle it's being driven in the vehicle, or else we all at risk for DUI in a taxi on the way home from the pub?

Suppose it all comes down to what the revenue define as actual use and I'd be doing that before driving it off the Island.

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

it has to be possible to do this. suppose I'm really rich and have a stroke. Can I not employ a chauffeur to drive me round in my roller? same situation as OPs granny.

Well, in Ireland no - you can't.
At least not so easy, as you can not have a car registered in your name and insured for someone else to drive it for you. Pure nonsense.

What you could probably do is to establish a limited company, become a director, and have a car registered in company's name. Then you will be able to employ chauffeur to drive you around and you will be able to get insurance to cover him. Surely this will cost plenty extra, but if you are really rich then sure - why not.

Problem might be though for people who aren't that rich, but still would like to have a car and someone to drive them around.
F.e. old person with no licence who would employ personal carer and would like to have him/her to drive her around in her car.
In Ireland this is not possible unfortunately.

CiniO

Del2005 wrote: »

Anyone can hire who they want to drive their vehicles, or they can just let them drive,

No they can't, as without a driving licence, you can not purchase an insurance for your car. And without having insurance, you can not add driver you employed as named driver.

but the revenue states that for an exemption for VRT the person has to have had actual use of the vehicle. Sitting in the back isn't using the vehicle it's being driven in the vehicle, or else we all at risk for DUI in a taxi on the way home from the pub?

Suppose it all comes down to what the revenue define as actual use and I'd be doing that before driving it off the Island.

Do you really believe that judge could decide that person who owned a car end employed a chauffeur to drive her around, doesn't have "actual use" of her own vehicle? Are you serious?

To Elland Back

CiniO wrote: »

Well, in Ireland no - you can't.
At least not so easy, as you can not have a car registered in your name and insured for someone else to drive it for you. Pure nonsense.
.

You can. It is possible. Not easy, but possible, as I explained earlier

CiniO

To Elland Back wrote: »

You can. It is possible. Not easy, but possible, as I explained earlier

Allright.
I looked back as I didn't remember any post saying it's possible.
You say however, that it's only for continuation of the policy- so I understand one can't just purchase a new policy without licence - so that's fairly useless in most cases.
Can a policy be renewed like that?

To Elland Back

CiniO wrote: »

Allright.
I looked back as I didn't remember any post saying it's possible.
You say however, that it's only for continuation of the policy- so I understand one can't just purchase a new policy without licence - so that's fairly useless in most cases.
Can a policy be renewed like that?

It is usually a continuation of a policy and can be renewed on and on. You can take out a new policy on that basis, but it would usually be a commercial decision by an insurer. An example would be the owner of a business who gives a lot of premium to an insurer wanting such a policy for the use by other named drivers