Etiquette and Manners

JupiterKid

Do you think that good manners are the same as observing and following correct etiquette? Can you have good manners without following etiquette?

For instance, I open doors for people and always say please and thank you but my late father would stand up at a dining table when a woman would ask to be excused.

Valetta

JupiterKid wrote: »

Do you think that good manners are the same as observing and following correct etiquette? Can you have good manners without following etiquette?

For instance, I open doors for people and always say please and thank you but my late father would stand up at a dining table when a woman would ask to be excused.

Manners are always manners and shouldn't change.

Etiquette on the other hand evolves through time.

I wouldn't stand when a woman leaves the table. (they definitely shouldn't "ask" to leave).

keno-daytrader

Valetta wrote: »

Manners are always manners and shouldn't change.

Etiquette on the other hand evolves through time.

I wouldn't stand when a woman leaves the table. (they definitely shouldn't "ask" to leave).

But they do this in Downton Abbey.

COYVB

Valetta wrote: »

I wouldn't stand when a woman leaves the table. (they definitely shouldn't "ask" to leave).

I think proper etiquette dictates anyone "asks" to be excused when leaving a table if a meal is in progress, male or female

They are linked, certainly, but they're not one and the same.

Some etiquette these days would be considered bad manners

Corvo

I don't know if you have ever seen proper dining etiquette (I mean top-class stuff) - it boarders on ridiculous. So I wouldn't confuse that with manners.

I would consider manners to be saying please, thank you. A good handshake. Holding a door for a woman. Taking her jacket. That sort of thing.

I don't 'ask' to leave, but I do excuse myself if I have to walk away from a table. I don't expect anyone to stand when I do.

Karl Stein

Would you shake someone's foot if they had no arms?

Valetta

Candie wrote: »

I don't 'ask' to leave, but I do excuse myself if I have to walk away from a table. I don't expect anyone to stand when I do.

This.

Excusing yourself is good manners. Asking to be excused is archaic and outdated.

What would you do if someone said "no"? :eek:

To me manners are treating people with respect and consideration. Etiquette is a way of behaving in a particular circumstance that is open to change and may evolve as society does.

Valetta

Candie wrote: »

To me manners are treating people with respect and consideration. Etiquette is a way of behaving in a particular circumstance that is open to change and may evolve as society does.

Thank you.

Now please excuse me while I join the other men in the drawing room for cigars.

Rubberchikken

good manners/etiquette is making a person feel comfortable and treating them respectfully no matter what.

strobe

Manners is doing what you would expect of other people. Etiquette is doing what others expect of you.

Heh, that's actually pretty good. Just made it up off the top of me head. Sounds like it could be a thing though. Probably nonsense. But I'm so proud that it sounds like it could be a thing, that I'm gonna have myself a nice sit.

ALiasEX

Corvo wrote: »

I don't know if you have ever seen proper dining etiquette (I mean top-class stuff) - it boarders on ridiculous. So I wouldn't confuse that with manners.

I would consider manners to be saying please, thank you. A good handshake. Holding a door for a woman. Taking her jacket. That sort of thing.

Why would she have a jacket when the mannerly thing would be to give her yours when she is cold? :rolleyes:

bjork

Candie wrote: »

To me manners are treating people with respect and consideration. Etiquette is a way of behaving in a particular circumstance that is open to change and may evolve as society does.

This^^
Some people can be all etiquette and no manners

K4t

One thing I do not understand, is the whole knife and fork etiquette. Both are pieces of cutlery, usually used together, yet one mustn't dare lick food off of the knife, or even put it near their mouth! Forks only! Bizarre.

O'Neill

Corvo wrote: »

Holding a door for a woman. Taking her jacket. That sort of thing.

I'm not a woman, but surly that's a bit patronising? I personally hold the door open for anyone.

Sir Osis of Liver.

Ive been known to fcuk my overcoat on puddles for women in the style of Walter Raleigh.

Paramite Pie

^^ And plenty of women have held doors open for me.

conorh91

Most 'etiquette' and 'manners' is self-congratulatory nonsense.

Someone once told me he walks on the street side of the kerb, because it's an olde tradition that gentlemen would save women from mud splashes.

I didn't know whether to cringe or pass out with laughter. Move over, Downton Abbey.

It's all so contrived and forced.

Slicemeister

One thing I'll never do is rub my snots on the person next to me's trousers at a dinner out.

On the bottom of the table or not at all.

Mint Aero

How do you do OP. Ladies & gents of this thread. May I post a reply, I await your response with great joy.

stinkle

I know someone who would bore you silly with the ins and outs of dining etiquette, for example, but kinda lives in a world of their own when out and about. They never think to give up seats on public transport to more needy people and tends to walk straight onto the Luas/into lifts without letting people out first.

I prefer having manners and being aware of my environment enough to think of others rather than stressing over tiny artificial rules.

JupiterKid

So it seems like manners and etiquette are two separate things. I'd agree with that. Downton Abbey was set for 90 years ago so a lot of the etiquette on that show is outdated in 2015. Dining table etiquette can be overbearing and ridiculous.

I was brought up to have good manners. They cost nothing and show others consideration and respect.

Tarzana2

Corvo wrote: »

Holding a door for a woman. Taking her jacket.

Ick, so patronising. As said, hold the door both sexes or nobody. As a female, I do if it make sense for me to hold the door rather than the other person. And the jacket thing, wtf?

Slicemeister

Tarzana2 wrote: »

Ick, so patronising. As said, hold the door both sexes or nobody. As a female, I do if it make sense for me to hold the door rather than the other person. And the jacket thing, wtf?

So if I hold the door for a woman she might see it as patronising? Or should I tell her I'd have done the same if she were a man? Just so as not to patronize her.

bjork

Slicemeister wrote: »

So if I hold the door for a woman she might see it as patronising? Or should I tell her I'd have done the same if she were a man? Just so as not to patronize her.

Tape a video of your self holding the door open for a man
Upload it to youtube
Show the proof, words are meaningless

Slicemeister

bjork wrote: »

Tape a video of your self holding the door open for a man
Upload it to youtube
Show the proof, words are meaningless

I do it regardless of their sex. Whether you believe it or not is your own decision.

Answer my query as to how I come out of a polite gesture not looking patronizing( in some eyes )

To Elland Back

Good manners are the mark of a person. Etiquette is put on nonsense

bjork

Slicemeister wrote: »

I do it regardless of their sex. Whether you believe it or not is your own decision.

Answer my query as to how I come out of a polite gesture not looking patronizing( in some eyes )

Carry a sign saying : Slicemeister -an equal opportunities door opener. That along with the youtube video should cover most situations

Tarzana2

Slicemeister wrote: »

So if I hold the door for a woman she might see it as patronising? Or should I tell her I'd have done the same if she were a man? Just so as not to patronize her.

Urgh, people defensively starting off sentences on the internet with 'So.'

With the door thing, it's hard to tell obviously, sometimes. But there has been times where guys have took aside for me where it was ridiculous for them to do so. A few days ago, a guy was getting on the bus ahead of me, he was nearly on, then he stepped off to let me go on. Seriously like? Just get on the bus!

The coat thing, well that's pretty obviously patronising to me. If you don't think it is, carry on.

Lia_lia

JupiterKid wrote: »

stand up at a dining table when a woman would ask to be excused.

Never heard of this one.

My old boss asked me once if I had taken "decorum" classes. Didn't even know what she was on about. She said I was the only one in the place that walks with proper posture. Not exactly manners, but anyway.

Lia_lia

Lia_lia wrote: »

Never heard of this one.

My old boss asked me once if I had taken "decorum" classes. Didn't even know what she was on about. She said I was the only one in the place that walks with proper posture. Not exactly manners, but anyway.

I think she meant 'deportment'.

Lia_lia

Maybe that's what she actually said

Slicemeister

Tarzana2 wrote: »

Urgh, people defensively starting off sentences on the internet with 'So.'

With the door thing, it's hard to tell obviously, sometimes. But there has been times where guys have took aside for me where it was ridiculous for them to do so. A few days ago, a guy was getting on the bus ahead of me, he was nearly on, then he stepped off to let me go on. Seriously like? Just get on the bus!

The coat thing, well that's pretty obviously patronising to me. If you don't think it is, carry on.

I might say the same about "urgh" and "ick".

I see what you mean, no way I'd step back off a bus or wait too long holding a door, just doing something nice for another without being judged is what I would've hoped.

No way am I being patronising. Or trying to be.

Why think that in a normal "hold door open" scenario?

Aongus Von Bismarck

I abhor bad manners. Alas it can be found in most countries. While you rarely find the Germans hocking up mouthfuls of spit and phlegm, puking outside fast food restaurants, or barging onto a train like it's the last helicopter out of Saigon; you do see examples of it.

I had a problem with my computer last week. We use a keypad token to authenticate against some of our more important trading platforms. Generate a code on the keypad, enter it on the computer alongside your own password, and away you go. It wasn't working and I had important work to do. I rang IT and asked that they send someone down immediately to assist me with the problem, as I had to export some historical reports for a client.

20 minutes later and this surly overweight lad appeared at my desk. Dressed like he was about to go to a comic book convention after he finished work. Muttering under his breath as he asked me what was the problem. I'll admit that this riled me, as only 20 minutes earlier I had given all the details of my problem to the person on the other end of the helpline. I asked him was calling down such an issue for him, as he didn't appear to actually want to do the work that he is paid for and tasked to do. I got a glib answer from him using some low German slang from the former East Germany. I decided to keep calm, as I just needed to go back to work. I could always lodge a complaint with IT management later.

Manners in work cost absolutely nothing. I arrive into work wanting to be polite, courteous and to the very best I can for the company who are paying me. Why did he have to be so ill-mannered? If he doesn't like the work then he really should consider another career that doesn't involve have to interact face-to-face with his customer base - the profit generating side of the firm as I told him as he left. We all face stress in work. Dare I say it, but my work is of a multiple more stressful than what he does, and is rewarded financially as such. Some basic manners costs nothing. I'll keep quiet about his dress sense, as the last time I suggested that staff should dress in a manner befitting the organisation they work for, I was met with torrents of abuse.

Tarzana2

Slicemeister wrote: »

Why think that in a normal "hold door open" scenario?

As said, I'd only think it if it was obvious. The obvious instances happen more often than you'd think, it's still a bit engrained; I don't really blame guys too much though, it was probably just instilled in them. It's dying out a bit now though, which is a good thing, IMO.

Mark Tapley

When I'm in the pub and I need to use the facilities I always tell people" I'm off for a slash". Good manners cost nothing.

Mark Tapley

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

I abhor bad manners. Alas it can be found in most countries. While you rarely find the Germans hocking up mouthfuls of spit and phlegm, puking outside fast food restaurants, or barging onto a train like it's the last helicopter out of Saigon; you do see examples of it.

I had a problem with my computer last week. We use a keypad token to authenticate against some of our more important trading platforms. Generate a code on the keypad, enter it on the computer alongside your own password, and away you go. It wasn't working and I had important work to do. I rang IT and asked that they send someone down immediately to assist me with the problem, as I had to export some historical reports for a client.

20 minutes later and this surly overweight lad appeared at my desk. Dressed like he was about to go to a comic book convention after he finished work. Muttering under his breath as he asked me what was the problem. I'll admit that this riled me, as only 20 minutes earlier I had given all the details of my problem to the person on the other end of the helpline. I asked him was calling down such an issue for him, as he didn't appear to actually want to do the work that he is paid for and tasked to do. I got a glib answer from him using some low German slang from the former East Germany. I decided to keep calm, as I just needed to go back to work. I could always lodge a complaint with IT management later.

Manners in work cost absolutely nothing. I arrive into work wanting to be polite, courteous and to the very best I can for the company who are paying me. Why did he have to be so ill-mannered? If he doesn't like the work then he really should consider another career that doesn't involve have to interact face-to-face with his customer base - the profit generating side of the firm as I told him as he left. We all face stress in work. Dare I say it, but my work is of a multiple more stressful than what he does, and is rewarded financially as such. Some basic manners costs nothing. I'll keep quiet about his dress sense, as the last time I suggested that staff should dress in a manner befitting the organisation they work for, I was met with torrents of abuse.

Aongus you are regurgitating your anecdotes. You need some new material.

Aongus Von Bismarck

Mark Tapley wrote: »

Aongus you are regurgitating your anecdotes. You need some new material.

Mark Tapley wrote: »

When I'm in the pub and I need to use the facilities I always tell people" I'm off for a slash". Good manners cost nothing.

Quite.

Rough Sleeper

Mark Tapley wrote: »

When I'm in the pub and I need to use the facilities I always tell people" I'm off for a slash". Good manners cost nothing.

If you had any real decorum you'd ask if anyone else needed one taken for themselves as well, while you were there.

Mark Tapley

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Quite.

A sterling riposte oh pretentious one.

Tarzana2

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

I had a problem with my computer last week. We use a keypad token to authenticate against some of our more important trading platforms. Generate a code on the keypad, enter it on the computer alongside your own password, and away you go. It wasn't working and I had important work to do. I rang IT and asked that they send someone down immediately to assist me with the problem, as I had to export some historical reports for a client.

20 minutes later and this surly overweight lad appeared at my desk. Dressed like he was about to go to a comic book convention after he finished work. Muttering under his breath as he asked me what was the problem. I'll admit that this riled me, as only 20 minutes earlier I had given all the details of my problem to the person on the other end of the helpline. I asked him was calling down such an issue for him, as he didn't appear to actually want to do the work that he is paid for and tasked to do. I got a glib answer from him using some low German slang from the former East Germany. I decided to keep calm, as I just needed to go back to work. I could always lodge a complaint with IT management later.

Manners in work cost absolutely nothing. I arrive into work wanting to be polite, courteous and to the very best I can for the company who are paying me. Why did he have to be so ill-mannered? If he doesn't like the work then he really should consider another career that doesn't involve have to interact face-to-face with his customer base - the profit generating side of the firm as I told him as he left. We all face stress in work. Dare I say it, but my work is of a multiple more stressful than what he does, and is rewarded financially as such. Some basic manners costs nothing. I'll keep quiet about his dress sense, as the last time I suggested that staff should dress in a manner befitting the organisation they work for, I was met with torrents of abuse.

We're only getting one side here. You say you asked from someone to be sent down immediately. Did you demand? Maybe there was a queue of people need IT assistance. Maybe you should examine if there's a reason this man's back was up when he arrived.

Ludikrus

AA Gill put it well - "Manners are about putting others at their ease. Etiquette is about letting them know how other they are. So to point out that your neighbour is using the wrong fork is etiquette. To use the same wrong fork yourself is manners."

K4t

K4t wrote: »

One thing I do not understand, is the whole knife and fork etiquette. Both are pieces of cutlery, usually used together, yet one mustn't dare lick food off of the knife, or even put it near their mouth! Forks only! Bizarre.

That's probably to avoid cutting your mouth with it like

jimgoose

Ludikrus wrote: »

AA Gill put it well - "Manners are about putting others at their ease. Etiquette is about letting them know how other they are. So to point out that your neighbour is using the wrong fork is etiquette. To use the same wrong fork yourself is manners."

Hear-hear. A.k.a. class vs. snobbery.

PandaPoo

One thing that annoys me, my husband shovels food in his mouth with the tines of the fork pointing up. I know it's not a big deal, and it works for him, but I cringe inside when I see it!

Also, when people cross their cutlery when they're finished eating. You place them side by side diagonally across the plate!! I need to get a life.

Tarzana2

PandaPoo wrote: »

Also, when people cross their cutlery when they're finished eating. You place them side by side diagonally across the plate!! I need to get a life.

Yes, you do! :pac:

K4t

bluewolf wrote: »

That's probably to avoid cutting your mouth with it like

See, that would be a logical explanation for not doing it with say a steak knife. But why all knives? Butter knives? And why make it a rule of etiquette and manners? We're all grown adults, we can all assess risk! No, it's simply viewed as poor manners for no other reason than because somebody decided that's the way it is!

Valetta

K4t wrote: »

See, that would be a logical explanation for not doing it with say a steak knife. But why all knives? Butter knives? And why make it a rule of etiquette and manners? We're all grown adults, we can all assess risk! No, it's simply viewed as poor manners for no other reason than because somebody decided that's the way it is!

You would eat off your butter knife, then use it in the butter dish that others will be using?

Eeeuugh :eek:

K4t

Valetta wrote: »

You would eat off your butter knife, then use it in the butter dish that others will be using?

Eeeuugh :eek:

Nope, I meant butter capsules. I feed my cat out of a dish!