Wiring Query

Matthew11

Hi

I have a garage at home that just has an extension lead running out to it for power.

The Garage is 30 * 18 build of cavity walls and not plastered inside.

It will be manily used electrically for powering a normal plug water treatment system. No major tools will be used in the garage so I dont need too much.

Im trying to get it wired and just need info on what might be needed for it.

Im going to run the cables and install sockets/lights/switches and get a Electrician to put in the Fuse Board and finish the wiring.

I know I need
- 4 Double Sockets with steel backs
- 2 Out door light switches
- A couple of lenghts of Conduit
- IP Rated Fuse Board
- 2 Tube Bulb lights and Fittings
- Electrical Wire

I dont know what type of wire I need and does anyone know If I would need anything else?

Thanks

Matthew

Luckysasha

To be honest if you don't know what size or type of cable you need then the only thing you need is an electrician!!!!!!!!

hallo dare

Best left to the Professionals as advised above.

The basic domestic installations are:
Lighting: 1.5sq
Sockets: 2.5sq

Industrial:
Lighting: 2.5sq
Sockets: 4sq

There are alot of things to take into consideration when doing an installation. Let a Sparky at it, to be on the safe side

Matthew11

Thanks, You could be right, all I was going to do was run the cables to have something done for him.

Any other materials I would need to get for him???

Thanks

2011

Matthew11 wrote: »

Thanks, You could be right, all I was going to do was run the cables to have something done for him.

Any other materials I would need to get for him???

Thanks

It is best not to buy materials for an electrician, you will be charged a far higher price.

aido79

Matthew11 wrote: »

Hi

I have a garage at home that just has an extension lead running out to it for power.

The Garage is 30 * 18 build of cavity walls and not plastered inside.

It will be manily used electrically for powering a normal plug water treatment system. No major tools will be used in the garage so I dont need too much.

Im trying to get it wired and just need info on what might be needed for it.

Im going to run the cables and install sockets/lights/switches and get a Electrician to put in the Fuse Board and finish the wiring.

I know I need
- 4 Double Sockets with steel backs
- 2 Out door light switches
- A couple of lenghts of Conduit
- IP Rated Fuse Board
- 2 Tube Bulb lights and Fittings
- Electrical Wire

I dont know what type of wire I need and does anyone know If I would need anything else?

Thanks

Matthew

Are you going to continue running this shed off the extension lead or do you intend to upgrade the supply to it? I don't believe any electrician in their right mind would take on the risks involved in this job.

CJ Haughey

The age old argument of who buys material or who gets it cheaper is not what most think.
Customer hands in quotation for pricing to a wholesalers, that wholesalers will give a very good price on the material at pretty much trade level price.
Electrician hands in his quotation to his wholesalers, gets his price for stuff. He adds his margin and comes along then and slaps 13.5% vat onto the materials.
Say customer got €500 for material quote, the electrician got similar but after adding on his margin (10%) plus 13.5% vat = €624.

If the customer cannot claim vat he will be paying an extra €124 instead of getting them himself. If he can claim vat and buys the material himself he can claim 23% vat. The 10% mark up would vary between electricians I know some who have a mark up of 20%.
Potentially the customer could get the materials for €406 ex vat by buying himself versus €550 ex vat if invoiced from contractor supplying materials.

Bruthal

aido79 wrote: »

Are you going to continue running this shed off the extension lead or do you intend to upgrade the supply to it? I don't believe any electrician in their right mind would take on the risks involved in this job.

What risks are they?

Matthew11

Hi, I have an cable underground going out to the garage which will go to the new fuse board in the garage so there will be no more extension lead. Just need to know if there is any other materials I might need that have not thought of??

Thanks

maxfresh

Do you want steel or plastic conduit?

Matthew11

was going to go plastic conduit.

CJ Haughey

You could use 40mm pvc trunking and run it around the perimeter inside the building and do 20mm conduit drops into the services.

2011

CJ Haughey wrote: »

The age old argument of who buys material or who gets it cheaper is not what most think.
Customer hands in quotation for pricing to a wholesalers, that wholesalers will give a very good price on the material at pretty much trade level price.
Electrician hands in his quotation to his wholesalers, gets his price for stuff. He adds his margin and comes along then and slaps 13.5% vat onto the materials.
Say customer got €500 for material quote, the electrician got similar but after adding on his margin (10%) plus 13.5% vat = €624.

If the customer cannot claim vat he will be paying an extra €124 instead of getting them himself. If he can claim vat and buys the material himself he can claim 23% vat. The 10% mark up would vary between electricians I know some who have a mark up of 20%.
Potentially the customer could get the materials for €406 ex vat by buying himself versus €550 ex vat if invoiced from contractor supplying materials.

An electrical contractor that buys hundreds of meters of a particular cable type will get it at a very different price than a DIYer will buy 30m of the same cable.

Economies of scale.

Apart from the fact that electricians know what the materials should cost, what the best materials are, what quantities to buy, they have use for excess materials etc.
Customers buying materials rarely makes sense.

CJ Haughey

2011 wrote: »

An electrical contractor that buys hundreds of meters of a particular cable type will get it at a very different price than a DIYer will buy 30m of the same cable.

Economies of scale.

As an rec myself i know first hand the way alot of wholesalers work, the margins between an electrician and a customer on quote is almost at par. Different story when a customer walks in off the street and make an instant cash purchase.
We have a €150 difference there in my example, allow for economics of scale give it €50 and that is ott customer is still saving €100.

2011

CJ Haughey wrote: »

As an rec myself i know first hand the way alot of wholesalers work, the margins between an electrician and a customer on quote is almost at par.

That is certainly not my experience. I have purchased a very large quantities of materials. Perhaps you should shop around.

As per my previous post there are many other reasons why it does not make sense for the customer to buy the materials.

CJ Haughey

2011 wrote: »

That is certainly not my experience. I have purchased a very large quantities of materials. Perhaps you should shop around.

As per my previous post there are many other reasons why it does not make sense for the customer to buy the materials.

Its all down to economics of scale as you say, if i only buy €200,000 of material and you buy €2,000,000 sure off course your experience is different.
How much value of material do you think a single rec spends on material doing house bashing and jobs like the op has per year?

aido79

Bruthal wrote: »

What risks are they?

There is nothing stopping the OP or someone who uses the shed in future from plugging in various tools or appliances( both in the shed and on the circuit where the extension lead is plugged in) that may draw a lot of power. If he is confident that this won't happen then there are no risks. But probably the most likely thing that would happen is that the mcb will trip on overload so I suppose there isn't that much risk really.

2011

CJ Haughey wrote: »

Its all down to economics of scale as you say, if i only buy €200,000 of material and you buy €2,000,000 sure off course your experience is different.

Exactly that is why when the OP gets a quote to buy the materials for the job described he will get quoted a different price than either of us due to the smaller quantity.

How much value of material do you think a single rec spends on material doing house bashing and jobs like the op has per year?

How long is a piece of string?

Leaving that aside there are other reasons why it is not a good idea for the customer to supply materials. For example electricians know what the materials should cost, what the best materials are, what quantities to buy, and they can put excess materials to good use whic also means that they can accommodate changes to the customers requirements.

The bottom line is that customers buying materials rarely makes sense.

CJ Haughey

2011 wrote: »

The bottom line is that customers buying materials rarely makes sense.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one i think, the figures are very accurate in post 7, you will also notice vat has a huge part to play, interesting link below.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/guide/general.html

2011

I would be interested to hear your views on the other reasons that I gave for the customer not buying the materials:

For example electricians know what the materials should cost, what the best materials are, what quantities to buy, and they can put excess materials to good use which also means that they can accommodate changes to the customers requirements.

CJ Haughey

2011 wrote: »

I would be interested to hear your views on the other reasons that I gave for the customer not buying the materials:

It happens alot that some contractors prefer to work on a labour only basis and pass on the materials list to the customer. The customer then does the shopping and dealings with wholesalers and fights for a good quote.
The wholesalers will give them a good price and one of the reasons is they will get paid immediately for the goods, since the crash in 2007 wholesalers have got a burning to say the least from contractors who couldn't pay their account.
I would not be tarnishing all the public with the same brush, to be fair about it choosing and ordering the materials is not the same as ordering parts for an aeroplanes rolls royce engine.

2011

CJ Haughey wrote: »

Electrician hands in his quotation to his wholesalers, gets his price for stuff. He adds his margin and comes along then and slaps 13.5% vat onto the materials.
Say customer got €500 for material quote, the electrician got similar but after adding on his margin (10%) plus 13.5% vat = €624.

Lets see then.
They both get quoted €500 for the materials excluding VAT.

The electrician adds on 10%, so that is €550 for the materials.
He then applies 13.5% VAT to the materials price.
So the total is €624.25

The customer has to pay 23% VAT on materials so the new total is €615.
A saving of €9.25 for the customer.

Or if the customer can claim back the VAT then they would save 10% which is €50. But of course the work would have to be for a VAT registered business and it would have to make financial sense for the business to spend time buying materials instead of earning money as a business.

That of course assumes that the customer gets charged exactly the same as the electrician, they buy exactly the right materials and right quantities of materials. If I were the customer I would rather pay the extra money and take advantage of the electricians expertise and experience in selecting quality materials. Each to the own I guess.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one i think

Ok.

CJ Haughey

2011 wrote: »

Lets see then.
They both get quoted €500 for the materials excluding VAT.

The electrician adds on 10%, so that is €550 for the materials.
He then applies 13.5% VAT to the materials price.
So the total is €624.25

The customer has to pay 23% VAT on materials so the new total is €615.
A saving of €9.25 for the customer.

An electrician or any business person using that logic that is in bold will not stay in business long. You add your 23% vat back on and then another 13.5% vat which would be vat on the labour too but that is irrelevant.
I addressed why its not a disaster that the customer buys the materials, your opinion is that they write up the materials list themselves, as i said alot of electricians work on labour only and gets their customer to buy materials.
There can be many reasons, one reason is if electrician don't get paid he is only out of pocket on labour, another is to keep his books down, i.e stay out of the vat bracket.

2011

CJ Haughey wrote: »

Electrician hands in his quotation to his wholesalers, gets his price for stuff.

€500

He adds his margin

10% margin is €50
€500 + €50 = €550

and comes along then and slaps 13.5% vat onto the materials.

€550 + 13.5% VAT = €624.25

CJ Haughey

The 10% add on would be on top of the full price of goods which have 23% vat already in it.
Obviously then adding on labour and 13.5% vat, hence the term vat on vat.

2011

CJ Haughey wrote: »

The 10% add on would be on top of the full price of goods which have 23% vat already in it.

No.
Every Registered Electrical Contractors in Ireland is VAT registered.
That means that they do not pay VAT on materials.

Let me explain: RECs are charged VAT when they buy materials, but then they claim it all back in their VAT return, so effectively they do not pay VAT on materials that they buy.

So if they want to make 10% on materials (as you suggested in post 7) then they add 10% to the cost of the cost of the materials excluding VAT.

They can then appy the lower VAT rate of 13.5% to the overall bill to the customer because the price includes labour.

CJ Haughey

2011 wrote: »

.
Every Registered Electrical Contractors in Ireland is VAT registered.

That is not true, I know a few contractors who are not vat reg, who told you that? there is no single requirement for an rec to be vat reg if he stays below the vat threshold or chooses not to be vat registered at the start.

2011

CJ Haughey wrote: »

who told you that?

Revenue did.

While the general turnover threshold for the supply of services is €37,500, for persons supplying both goods and services where 90% or more of the turnover is derived from supplies of goods (other than of the kind referred to in the above paragraph) then the threshold for Goods applies.

If you are going to argue that a Registered Electrical Contractor is going to be below the VAT threshold then how can you explain them charging VAT?

Here is what you said in post 7:

Say customer got €500 for material quote, the electrician got similar but after adding on his margin (10%) plus 13.5% vat = €624.

CJ Haughey

Revenue state to any business person not specific an rec. If the rec is not vat reg then he would be buying the materials with 23% vat included in them and adding on his cut so effectively the customer would be still better off buying the materials. They would be both on a level playing field.
On the other hand if the customer were a farmer who could claim vat and the contractor was not vat reg the farmer would be loosing out on claiming any vat.
At the end of the day the only winner with vat is the tax man.

2011

CJ Haughey wrote: »

If the rec is not vat reg then he would be buying the materials with 23% vat included

Correct.

However if the REC is not VAT registered then the REC can not charge VAT.
Your post 7 sates that the REC charges VAT:

Say customer got €500 for material quote, the electrician got similar but after adding on his margin (10%) plus 13.5% vat = €624.

So which is it, the REC is or is not VAT registered?

CJ Haughey

Post 7 would be a vat reg rec, my previous post would be a non vat rec.

2011

CJ Haughey wrote: »

Post 7 would be a vat reg rec

Fair enough, then this calculation applies and there would be a saving of just €9.25 as explained here.

my previous post would be a non vat rec.

Ok so if the customer manages to find a non-VAT registered REC that applies a 10% mark up on materials then the additional cost is just that, 10%.

Either way your calculation in post 7 does not make sense.

CJ Haughey

We have conflicting theories here. Say for example a customer walks in off the street and purchases a light fitting for €100 that will include 23% vat.
An electrician buys the same product for €85 give him a trade price and that includes 23% vat.

So that is costing electrician €70, now according to you all he adds on is 13.5% so that is €79.

Unless im reading your posts wrong this is your theory on vat, is the above you concur with?

2011

CJ Haughey wrote: »

Say for example a customer walks in off the street and purchases a light fitting for €100 that will include 23% vat.

Ok, so €100 would be equal to €81.30 + VAT @23%

An electrician buys the same product for €85 give him a trade price and that includes 23% vat.

OK, so €85 would be equal to €69.11 + VAT @23%

So that is costing electrician €70, now according to you all he adds on is 13.5% so that is €79.

I am saying that for most work that a REC carries out the "two thirds rule" can be applied, meaning that the lower 13.5% VAT rate can be charged.
Michael Noonan explains it here.

You refer to the 13.5% VAT rate yourself in post 7.

CJ Haughey

2011 wrote: »

Ok, so €100 would be equal to €81.30 + VAT @23%



OK, so €85 would be equal to €69.11 + VAT @23%

Yes and Yes

So to answer my question,

Unless im reading your posts wrong this is your theory on vat, is the above you concur with?

2011

CJ Haughey wrote: »

So to answer my question,

I thought I answered it.
Please rephrase and I will try again.

Edit:
Generally the lower 13.5% VAT rate will apply to electrical installation work (including materials) as you have alluded to in post7.
I just disagree with your maths in that post.

From the Micheal Noonan link above:

In addition, where a building contractor carries out home improvements and the materials cost does not exceed two-thirds of the cost of the improvements then the reduced rate of 13.5% applies to the total building service. A consequence of this is that a VAT registered building contractor will generally be entitled to recover VAT at the 23% standard rate on most building materials purchased while the contractor is only liable to charge VAT at the 13.5% reduced rate on the supply to the home owner.

CJ Haughey

2011 wrote: »

I thought I answered it.
Please rephrase and I will try again.

Even though the electrician in my last example can claim 23% vat on the item he would be a busy fool selling it on cheaper to the customer than what the customer can walk in off the street can.
Just beacuse an rec can claim 23% vat on an item does not mean he has to pass on that saving minus 13.5%.

2011

CJ Haughey wrote: »

Even though the electrician in my last example can claim 23% vat on the item he would be a busy fool selling it on cheaper to the customer than what the customer can walk in off the street can.

I never suggested that an electrician should pass on the full saving to the customer.
I used the 10% mark up figure that you provided (post 7) in my calculation.
This showed a €9.25 saving to the customer not the €124 saving that you suggested in post 7.

Just beacuse an rec can claim 23% vat on an item does not mean he has to pass on that saving minus 13.5%.

The REC is permitted to incentivise the customer by charging a lower VAT rate on the entire job (materials and labour) at no cost to himself (see post 34).

CJ Haughey

Were still not hymning off the same hymn sheet, i understand the 2/3rds rule on vat that is not relevant nor noonans link alot he knows but that a different story.
You buy an item from your wholesalers it costs you €100 inclusive of 23% vat, what do you charge the customer for the item final figure including 13.5% vat (lets just use 13.5%).

2011

CJ Haughey wrote: »

You buy an item from your wholesalers it costs you €100 inclusive of 23% vat, what do you charge the customer for the item final figure including 13.5% vat (lets just use 13.5%).

€100 would be equal to €81.30 + VAT @23%

So the contractor can sell this on to the customer at €81.30 + VAT@ 13.5% at no loss to himself as part of an overall bill if the two thirds rule applies.
In this example the customer that can not reclaim VAT makes a saving on the item (due to being charged the lower VAT rate) and this part of the transaction is cost neutral to the contractor.



Edit:
€81.30 + VAT@ 13.5% = €92.28

CJ Haughey

Why would you sell the item less than what the customer walking in off the street buys it for though, last time i did that years ago when i used do water pumps i learned my lesson.

2011

CJ Haughey wrote: »

Why would you sell the item less than what the customer walking in off the street buys it for though, last time i did that years ago when i used do water pumps i learned my lesson.

I explained in my last post the amount that would have to be charged to be cost neutral, so anything charged above that is profit.

You can apply any mark up you like, that is your choice.
But whatever you charge the maths has to "work".
It post 7 it doesn't

CJ Haughey

2011 wrote: »

It post 7 it doesn't

What do you disagree with in post 7, i know you might have said earlier so apologies for that.

2011

CJ Haughey wrote: »

What do you disagree with in post 7, i know you might have said earlier so apologies for that.

The customer saving €124 saving on materials.
If you still think that this is correct show me the calculation.

CJ Haughey

I think i see the confusion by me, bear with me.

CJ Haughey

In post 7 where i said

Say customer got €500 for material quote, the electrician got similar but after adding on his margin (10%) plus 13.5% vat = €624.

I should have said the €500 was including 23% vat, so the materials were costing him €406.

2011

CJ Haughey wrote: »

In post 7 where i said



I should have said the €500 was including 23% vat, so the materials were costing him €406.

Ok so based on that and the electrician making 10% work out the cost saving for the customer.

CJ Haughey

2011 wrote: »

Ok so based on that and the electrician making 10% work out the cost saving for the customer.

Its €124 as per post 7 the saving the customer can get.

2011

CJ Haughey wrote: »

Its €124 as per post 7 the saving the customer can get.

Ok, go through the maths step by step (as I did) and I will show you where your calculation is going wrong.

Stoner

Vat is only charged once, paid by the end user.

CJ Haughey

I completed a job on Tuesday, I had to go to an electrical wholesalers in the city as the light I brought with me was damaged.
It was on the shelf retail for €60, I got it for €50 all in as they gave me a trade price on it. This wholesalers is open to public along with trade.
I charged the customer €60 for the light and €30 for labour. I added vat only once @13.5% and charged the customer €102.
According to 2011 if he were invoicing he would only be €48 for that same light (€60 minus 23% vat).