Dept publishing individual SFP details?

Username John

Just read this article on Agriland
http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/40-farmers-meath-received-e100k-farm-payments-last-year/

It states

The figures show that two farmers (one in Co. Wexford and one in Co. Kilkenny) received Single Farm Payments of more than €300,000.

The farmers identities were not released with the figures, however it’s understood that the Department of Agriculture will release the names and individual payment details of Irish farmers within weeks.

I thought the publishing of individual payments was found to be in breech of some European law, and so not done anymore?

(Or have I read the article wrong?)

micraX

http://farmsubsidy.openspending.org/IE/

Search names here and find out what they got

Buford T. Justice XIX

Username John wrote: »

Just read this article on Agriland
http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/40-farmers-meath-received-e100k-farm-payments-last-year/

It states


I thought the publishing of individual payments was found to be in breech of some European law, and so not done anymore?

(Or have I read the article wrong?)

Some German farmers challenged the publication of details and the EU suspended it. I think they couldn't publish individuals details but could publish companies. They have changed the legislation and are going back to publishing it all again.

RobertKK

Username John wrote: »

Just read this article on Agriland
http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/40-farmers-meath-received-e100k-farm-payments-last-year/

It states


I thought the publishing of individual payments was found to be in breech of some European law, and so not done anymore?

(Or have I read the article wrong?)

Ahh it is only those on high payments like the IFA who went out of their way to screw farmers on lower payments, so they could maintain their higher payments that have anything to be concerned about.
We all know there was a big conflict of interest going on.

rangler1

RobertKK wrote: »

Ahh it is only those on high payments like the IFA who went out of their way to screw farmers on lower payments, so they could maintain their higher payments that have anything to be concerned about.
We all know there was a big conflict of interest going on.

The only farmers that's being screwed as far as I can see is those on higher payments/ha....taking €10.000/ yr off a 50ha farmer is a bit of a p..s take

frazzledhome

RobertKK wrote: »

Ahh it is only those on high payments like the IFA who went out of their way to screw farmers on lower payments, so they could maintain their higher payments that have anything to be concerned about.
We all know there was a big conflict of interest going on.

Now Robert, I think you're being a bit unfair there. I agree with reform but publishing names serves no ones interest.

RightTurnClyde

So when are they publishing the individual salaries of nurses, teachers, doctors, gardai, social welfare receiptients, etc ...it's all tax payers money.

AP2014

RobertKK wrote: »

Ahh it is only those on high payments like the IFA who went out of their way to screw farmers on lower payments, so they could maintain their higher payments that have anything to be concerned about.
We all know there was a big conflict of interest going on.

Correct, this is great news. Cuts out the rubbish of no money in farming from lads with new tractors, jeeps, slurry tanks etc every 2 years.

They PAYE worker has a right to see where their taxes are going.

AP2014

rangler1 wrote: »

The only farmers that's being screwed as far as I can see is those on higher payments/ha....taking €10.000/ yr off a 50ha farmer is a bit of a p..s take

What would he be getting overall if they can take €10,000 off him?

blue5000

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

So when are they publishing the individual salaries of nurses, teachers, doctors, gardai, social welfare receiptients, etc ...it's all tax payers money.

I think you may have forgot a few, ahem, sectors of the civil service there.....

farmerjj

AP2014 wrote: »

Correct, this is great news. Cuts out the rubbish of no money in farming from lads with new tractors, jeeps, slurry tanks etc every 2 years.

They PAYE worker has a right to see where their taxes are going.

😊me thinks your a bit of a SH** stirrer

rangler1

AP2014 wrote: »

What would he be getting overall if they can take €10,000 off him?

€30000
It was there for everyone to get in the nineties, average age of farmers is late fifties, so most of them were farming then too

Farmer Pudsey

This is a new proposal and expect that it will be water tight this time. Really have no issue with it. It will prove beliefs one way or the other.

AP2014

farmerjj wrote: »

😊me thinks your a bit of a SH** stirrer

No sh** stirrering about it, I get a healthy sfp and am first to say it.

rangler1 wrote: »

€30000
It was there for everyone to get in the nineties, average age of farmers is late fifties, so most of them were farming then too

And what of the guys that started farming from 2008 onwards? I was at forgotten farmers a few weeks in athlone. Not many lads with big sfp's there, solidarity amongst farmers there certainly wasn't. It was there in the nineties and certainly lads(mainly IFA men) cleaned up. I wonder why and I wonder why they are so slow in wanting these figures published.

rangler1

AP2014 wrote: »

No sh** stirrering about it, I get a healthy sfp and am first to say it.



And what of the guys that started farming from 2008 onwards? I was at forgotten farmers a few weeks in athlone. Not many lads with big sfp's there, solidarity amongst farmers there certainly wasn't. It was there in the nineties and certainly lads(mainly IFA men) cleaned up. I wonder why and I wonder why they are so slow in wanting these figures published.

I have no problem with them being published, but they really are none of their business otherwise publish the public servants salaries...at least farmers are a net gain to the country, public service seems to be a black hole....you wonder is the efficiency in the health service on a par with the efficiency of Irish Water....it'd explain a lot.
On the forgotten farmers, plenty of them were from farms that had average SFPs that could have been a lot better.....That land didn't just materialise in 2008, plenty of those are dairy farmers with low SFP , but they sold 7, 8 or maybe €10000 worth of milk off every hectare....these are some of the guys that are looking to benefit from top ups etc out of my income. I wouldn't be getting out the violins for them all anyway

AP2014

rangler1 wrote: »

I have no problem with them being published, but they really are none of their business otherwise publish the public servants salaries...at least farmers are a net gain to the country, public service seems to be a black hole....you wonder is the efficiency in the health service on a par with the efficiency of Irish Water....it'd explain a lot.
On the forgotten farmers, plenty of them were from farms that had average SFPs that could have been a lot better.....That land didn't just materialise in 2008, plenty of those are dairy farmers with low SFP , but they sold 7, 8 or maybe €10000 worth of milk off every hectare....these are some of the guys that are looking to benefit from top ups etc out of my income. I wouldn't be getting out the violins for them all anyway

Do you actually believe this? I am sure alot of hard working teachers, nurse, gardai etc might disagree.

Who knew what had to be done in the mid 90's to claim a high sfp for the next 20 years?

Look I am both a farmer and public servant. I believe all salaries should be published if funded publicly.

Blackgrass

farmerjj wrote: »

😊me thinks your a bit of a SH** stirrer

Begrudery more like...
A few of my neighbours back home had big payments, not as if they didn't work for it though. Would be more inclined to think payment to a buisness that can't self fund on it's own is worth while to keep dragging along but somefolk feel if you've a few acres it's a 'god given right' to farm it. And turn around and compllain about others, but that's another story :pac::rolleyes:

tomwaterford

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

So when are they publishing the individual salaries of nurses, teachers, doctors, gardai, social welfare receiptients, etc ...it's all tax payers money.

Well this is all reasonable accessible info...type in for case of teacher the number years service and boom there it is

At the end of the day it's taxpayers money like....I for one anyway like to see it all accounted for...if you don't like your handout/ payment being published....hand it back??

AP2014

Blackgrass wrote: »

Begrudery more like...
A few of my neighbours back home had big payments, not as if they didn't work for it though. Would be more inclined to think payment to a buisness that can't self fund on it's own is worth while to keep dragging along but somefolk feel if you've a few acres it's a 'god given right' to farm it. And turn around and compllain about others, but that's another story :pac::rolleyes:

Take away the €30/35k payments from fellas and you will see how well they farm and self fund. If a fella has a few acres he is as entitled to farm it and get a couple thousand sfp than if a fella with a few 100 can farm and get 30/40k sfp? Why should it be one set of rules for the big farmer and not the small guy?

I am not sure how long you are gone to england but you seem to be turning more british than the brits themselves. No doubt you have dreams to come home and buy places up and become a landlord. Say the fellas love you when you come home at xmasand pontificating to them how they should be farming in the pub.

AP2014

tomwaterford wrote: »

Well this is all reasonable accessible info...type in for case of teacher the number years service and boom there it is

At the end of the day it's taxpayers money like....I for one anyway like to see it all accounted for...if you don't like your handout/ payment being published....hand it back??

Spot on!

rangler1

AP2014 wrote: »

Do you actually believe this? I am sure alot of hard working teachers, nurse, gardai etc might disagree.

Who knew what had to be done in the mid 90's to claim a high sfp for the next 20 years?

Look I am both a farmer and public servant. I believe all salaries should be published if funded publicly.

How many hours is your public service week, your holidays and higher than average sick days,
No private sector business would stick it..just highlighting Irish water and they're eligible for bonuses

Blackgrass

AP2014 wrote: »

Take away the €30/35k payments from fellas and you will see how well they farm and self fund. If a fella has a few acres he is as entitled to farm it and get a couple thousand sfp than if a fella with a few 100 can farm and get 30/40k sfp? Why should it be one set of rules for the big farmer and not the small guy?

I am not sure how long you are gone to england but you seem to be turning more british than the brits themselves. No doubt you have dreams to come home and buy places up and become a landlord. Say the fellas love you when you come home at xmasand pontificating to them how they should be farming in the pub.

PFFFFt by the farm?, working by the county peasant :pac:.
Like i said begrudery Ap...

AP2014

rangler1 wrote: »

How many hours is your public service week, your holidays and higher than average sick days,
No private sector business would stick it..just highlighting Irish water and they're eligible for bonuses

Was 32 hours, now just under 34 I think since haddington road. Holidays are 21 most of my friends it would be 23 days in same industry in private sector. Sick days are 7 uncertified over 2 years. I am also on flexi-time so can chalk up an extra day holiday a month if I put in extra hours.

I have a friend who worked 10 years with me in the public sector, left last year for private sector. Very talented fella, earning more money now, health insurance, bonus, shares, no pension levy. His gross was only a grand or two more but net works out couple hundred month better in private sector with shares, health insurance bonus and no pension levy.

Fair play to him, he worked as hard now as he did in the public sector, also took as many sick days now as he did in public sector.

Will let you in on a secret, you have lazy and hard working employees in private and public sector. I also think you have lazy and hard working farmers. Some with alot of holidays some with not so many! Some take sick days and some don't.

AP2014

Blackgrass wrote: »

PFFFFt by the farm?, working by the county peasant :pac:.
Like i said begrudery Ap...

A few of my neighbours back home had big payments, not as if they didn't work for it though. Would be more inclined to think payment to a buisness that can't self fund on it's own is worth while to keep dragging along but somefolk feel if you've a few acres it's a 'god given right' to farm it.

Infairness that's some statement from you! You are all in favour of fellas with big payments if they can't be self funded and its worth while dragging them along but you think the fella with a few acres hasn't.

That sums you up alright, next you will be using the C word here again.

Also for your information I have openly stated here that I have a higher than after sfp so no begrudery here. I would like fairness for other small farmers though they have as much right to it as the fellas with a few hundred acres. It may be different in England

frazzledhome

AP2014 wrote: »

Take away the €30/35k payments from fellas and you will see how well they farm and self fund. If a fella has a few acres he is as entitled to farm it and get a couple thousand sfp than if a fella with a few 100 can farm and get 30/40k sfp? Why should it be one set of rules for the big farmer and not the small guy?

I am not sure how long you are gone to england but you seem to be turning more british than the brits themselves. No doubt you have dreams to come home and buy places up and become a landlord. Say the fellas love you when you come home at xmasand pontificating to them how they should be farming in the pub.

You are right out of order there mate. With posts like that this thread has hit the pits and despite having a contribution to make this kind of shyte will stop many

Cop the phuck on and respect other posters

AP2014

frazzledhome wrote: »

You are right out of order there mate. With posts like that this thread has hit the pits and despite having a contribution to make this kind of shyte will stop many

Cop the phuck on and respect other posters

If Blackgrass wants to hide in the long grass and then come on and have a go at people I think he is well able to take it back. His post about fellas with a few small acres with a god given right to farm was insulting to alot of small farmers on here. This forum is for small farmers as well as big ones. Oh I am not your mate and you could do with taking your own advice of respecting other posters so watch the language.

frazzledhome

AP2014 wrote: »

If Blackgrass wants to hide in the long grass and then come on and have a go at people I think he is well able to take it back. His post about fellas with a few small acres with a god given right to farm was insulting to alot of small farmers on here. This forum is for small farmers as well as big ones. Oh I am not your mate and you could do with taking your own advice of respecting other posters so watch the language.

Lol

Kovu

AP- Statements like the above are not acceptable. You've been around here long enough to know that you attack a post, not the poster.
Frazzled, same for you. Report, don't retort

Now can everyone have a bit of common sense and argue the point. It's Friday evening and I've better things to be at than babysitting grown men online :pac:

AP2014

frazzledhome wrote: »

Lol

Blackgrass, rangler and frazzledhome, sorry I am off for a few Friday night pints so will have to leave it here. Will catch up about the actual thread topic in the morning if it still has to be debated.

But I am firmly in the publish all sfp details corner. Goodnight gentlemen and enjoy the wkd!

frazzledhome

Kovu wrote: »

AP- Statements like the above are not acceptable. You've been around here long enough to know that you attack a post, not the poster.
Frazzled, same for you. Report, don't retort

Now can everyone have a bit of common sense and argue the point. It's Friday evening and I've better things to be at than babysitting grown men online :pac:

How do you know we're grown up?

Kovu

frazzledhome wrote: »

How do you know we're grown up?

Because ye can drive......me up the wall. :rolleyes:

C'mon, back on thread guys.

Blackgrass

AP2014 wrote: »

A few of my neighbours back home had big payments, not as if they didn't work for it though. Would be more inclined to think payment to a buisness that can't self fund on it's own is worth while to keep dragging along but somefolk feel if you've a few acres it's a 'god given right' to farm it.

Infairness that's some statement from you! You are all in favour of fellas with big payments if they can't be self funded and its worth while dragging them along but you think the fella with a few acres hasn't.

That sums you up alright, next you will be using the C word here again.

Also for your information I have openly stated here that I have a higher than after sfp so no begrudery here. I would like fairness for other small farmers though they have as much right to it as the fellas with a few hundred acres. It may be different in England

You've the whole job figured out damn it. And there i was hoping all there'd be left in a few years are dairy ranches and a few barley barrons feeding all Abp's feed lots of thousands of cattle, ooh well. Grew up on a small farm that got little handed to us, making just enough to survive rather than thrive and flourish. Couldn't be bothered with that hardship, got a job well payed for skills, other folk seem to think they're more deserving to be kept going rather than nature so to speak take it's curse because... Why?

Before Kovu comes back to get on topic, feel free to fire off more pm's if i upset you again .
(ps.It's hiding in the Osr and Blackgrass, obviously)

Farmer Pudsey

The issue with the SFP is that it bears no relationship to what was done in early noughties. IMO it is in need of drastic reform however this is impossible as sectoral interests prevent this. There is a saying in the bible (and may be one in it to contradict it as well) ''the sins of the father shall not be laid on the son''. However with SFP they are and there is little or no way to change that. By 2020 farmers with large payments will have had 15 years of decent payments. If in that time they have failed to use these above average payments to develop there business to a sustainable level then tough.

Publishing details for next 4-5 years will allow farmers in general to make informed decisions. Most should realize that it is not there money it is an income support. Maybe it should have been ring fenced for drystock and grain farmers but even in the premia years farmers factored in part of it value if buying a bull calf or male store from dairy farmers. So it transferred across all sectors. Any attempt to reform is met with that it will effect full time farmers, the commercial farmer, be the case of the end of the suckler cow etc. In truth I know full time farmers with small and large payments, the same with part time farmers. The biggest issue now is that there is a large section of younger farmers with smallish payments.

During the last review a certain farm organisation was spouting that DA and Pillar 2 funding(GLAS) would make up the difference this did not happen. Lots of farmers with land that is designated are not really being compensated by GLAS. The other reality is that there will always be smaller land holdings in Ireland who's owners work as well. Some might not like it but that is the reality. The omly way we can make informed decision coming up to 2019 is mysee the data around us. This will allow us to decide if we need to radically reform the system and the effects it will have.

We will see whether the lad up or down the road that is buying land or running around in a Landcruiser and 14' Box is actually doing that out of farm income or maybe it is the 60K SFP he has that is helping him do it.

As another famous Irish man said (The Duke Of Wellington) ''publish and be dammed''

Victor

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

So when are they publishing the individual salaries of nurses, teachers, doctors, gardai, social welfare receiptients, etc ...it's all tax payers money.

Actually, as these are set by law, they are already published.

Their expenses can be FOIed.

Cattlepen

I personally don't care whether the details are published. I have a decent payment that I worked hard for at the time and have continued to work and expand since. The sfp is part of the CAP which is in place to make food affordable and available for EU citizens. SFP is our compensation for producing nearly below cost. The more you produce, the more you should be compensated. It should be as simple that and not subject to the varies of a socialist agenda

tomwaterford

Cattlepen wrote: »

I personally don't care whether the details are published. I have a decent payment that I worked hard for at the time and have continued to work and expand since. The sfp is part of the CAP which is in place to make food affordable and available for EU citizens. SFP is our compensation for producing nearly below cost. The more you produce, the more you should be compensated. It should be as simple that and not subject to the varies of a socialist agenda

but at what stage deos the econmies of scale tip the cost basis back in favour of the big v smaller debate??


its beyond belief that people would argue that taxpayers money shouldn't be published on its spent on....but the whole cap thing is in massive need of an overhaul...(story for another day)


but the part timers do deserve to be compensated to the same proportions of what they produce as the bigger farmers IMO

Nekarsulm

Round here, there was much more Dairying in the formative years, and unless the dairy man was finishing and factoring the male calves, SFP when it arrived, was low. Winners mainly confined to dealers, who were turning a lot of animals, and factoring them, as their total SFP was mainly made up from Slaughter premiums and 22 month premiums.

Cattlepen

tomwaterford wrote: »

but at what stage deos the econmies of scale tip the cost basis back in favour of the big v smaller debate??


its beyond belief that people would argue that taxpayers money shouldn't be published on its spent on....but the whole cap thing is in massive need of an overhaul...(story for another day)


but the part timers do deserve to be compensated to the same proportions of what they produce as the bigger farmers IMO

I partially agree with you but when you talk about economies of scale, you also have to take into account that a loss making year leads to bigger losses to recover from. Also working week hours. There is a point of production, up to which, there is time to earn an off farm income

Cattlepen

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Round here, there was much more Dairying in the formative years, and unless the dairy man was finishing and factoring the male calves, SFP when it arrived, was low. Winners mainly confined to dealers, who were turning a lot of animals, and factoring them, as their total SFP was mainly made up from Slaughter premiums and 22 month premiums.

You are quite right but the dairy man was getting a lot more for his calves and weanlings than they were worth because of the payments attached to them

frazzledhome

Cattlepen wrote: »

You are quite right but the dairy man was getting a lot more for his calves and weanlings than they were worth because of the payments attached to them

As was the guy selling the weanling

Cattlepen

frazzledhome wrote: »

As was the guy selling the weanling

Agreed

larrymiller

Should publish sfp with boards names.. Would be some banter then

frazzledhome

Can I ask why does this come around to small V's big farmers? I just can't see the correlation.

Nekarsulm

Cattlepen wrote: »

You are quite right but the dairy man was getting a lot more for his calves and weanlings than they were worth because of the payments attached to them

He was, but at that time the Holstein influence wasn't as encompassing. Loads of farms were still producing a bull calf that was much more B.Friesian, you would see sales advertising that fact as being a positive thing. Until Sunny Boy arrived on the scene, and the AI companies got their Reps out on the road in earnest, uptake was still low enough.

tomwaterford

Cattlepen wrote: »

I partially agree with you but when you talk about economies of scale, you also have to take into account that a loss making year leads to bigger losses to recover from. Also working week hours. There is a point of production, up to which, there is time to earn an off farm income

im actually not disagreeing with you here

but I seen published here and elsewhere comments/opinions that part timers shouldn't get any sfp...because they have an off farm income....I would want to see an end to that idea tbh

as you correctly looked for to be compensated in proportion to what your produced

so for example a part timer with 20 cattle should get 25% of what a farmer with 80 cattle...not have the likes of disgraceful comments that were posted here and pushed locally in my area that he/she shouldn't get anything due to having an off farm income:mad:

Farmer Pudsey

tomwaterford wrote: »

im actually not disagreeing with you here

but I seen published here and elsewhere comments/opinions that part timers shouldn't get any sfp...because they have an off farm income....I would want to see an end to that idea tbh

as you correctly looked for to be compensated in proportion to what your produced

so for example a part timer with 20 cattle should get 25% of what a farmer with 80 cattle...not have the likes of disgraceful comments that were posted here and pushed locally in my area that he/she shouldn't get anything due to having an off farm income:mad:

However that is against WTO agreements. So down the line we only a few choices.

1. Remain as is
2. Flat rate
3. Flat rate with front loading
4. Regionalisation

There may be others but I have not come across them. However it is very hard to make decisions re same if you cannot see the fallout.

tomwaterford

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

However that is against WTO agreements. So down the line we only a few choices.

1. Remain as is
2. Flat rate
3. Flat rate with front loading
4. Regionalisation

There may be others but I have not come across them. However it is very hard to make decisions re same if you cannot see the fallout.

as someone who stood to gain a fair bit due to health reasons around reference years a v.low stocking rate was here

we stood to gain more than most at the time of the last reform only for the ifa to step in and protect its larger subscribers (as is not a fault as such...just a fact of life)

so for me I don't want to see option 1 continuing anyway....any of others will improve my sfp...and theres soo much I would like to do to the place if I could justify it

Cattlepen

tomwaterford wrote: »

im actually not disagreeing with you here

but I seen published here and elsewhere comments/opinions that part timers shouldn't get any sfp...because they have an off farm income....I would want to see an end to that idea tbh

as you correctly looked for to be compensated in proportion to what your produced

so for example a part timer with 20 cattle should get 25% of what a farmer with 80 cattle...not have the likes of disgraceful comments that were posted here and pushed locally in my area that he/she shouldn't get anything due to having an off farm income:mad:

You are 100% correct. I don't agree with anyone that says partime or smaller farmers should not get sfp. They certainly should. I also do not agree with the likes of o'cuiv that says the SFP should be capped.

Farmer Pudsey

Cattlepen wrote: »

You are 100% correct. I don't agree with anyone that says partime or smaller farmers should not get sfp. They certainly should. I also do not agree with the likes of o'cuiv that says the SFP should be capped.

I agree with capping I see little reason for any farmer getting more than 30K (near enough average industrial wage) however I be willing to accept 50K.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The issue with the SFP is that it bears no relationship to what was done in early noughties. IMO it is in need of drastic reform however this is impossible as sectoral interests prevent this. There is a saying in the bible (and may be one in it to contradict it as well) ''the sins of the father shall not be laid on the son''. However with SFP they are and there is little or no way to change that. By 2020 farmers with large payments will have had 15 years of decent payments. If in that time they have failed to use these above average payments to develop there business to a sustainable level then tough.

Publishing details for next 4-5 years will allow farmers in general to make informed decisions. Most should realize that it is not there money it is an income support. Maybe it should have been ring fenced for drystock and grain farmers but even in the premia years farmers factored in part of it value if buying a bull calf or male store from dairy farmers. So it transferred across all sectors. Any attempt to reform is met with that it will effect full time farmers, the commercial farmer, be the case of the end of the suckler cow etc. In truth I know full time farmers with small and large payments, the same with part time farmers. The biggest issue now is that there is a large section of younger farmers with smallish payments.

During the last review a certain farm organisation was spouting that DA and Pillar 2 funding(GLAS) would make up the difference this did not happen. Lots of farmers with land that is designated are not really being compensated by GLAS. The other reality is that there will always be smaller land holdings in Ireland who's owners work as well. Some might not like it but that is the reality. The omly way we can make informed decision coming up to 2019 is mysee the data around us. This will allow us to decide if we need to radically reform the system and the effects it will have.

We will see whether the lad up or down the road that is buying land or running around in a Landcruiser and 14' Box is actually doing that out of farm income or maybe it is the 60K SFP he has that is helping him do it.

As another famous Irish man said (The Duke Of Wellington) ''publish and be dammed''

That's the thing FP, it's not income support.

It's compensation for competition from below cost imports which were allowed access to the european market in return for european access to their high value markets.

It's comparing apples with oranges.

Farmer Pudsey

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

That's the thing FP, it's not income support.

It's compensation for competition from below cost imports which were allowed access to the european market in return for european access to their high value markets.

It's comparing apples with oranges.

Production supports are illegal under WTO rules. I agree that we have to work in one of the most highly regulated markets in the world. However direct support is not allowed for production. The thing about it is that leaves us with the 4 choices I gave above.