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Principal Officer in the Civil Service

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Comments



  • Riskymove wrote: »
    No I don't sorry

    I know someone in the top 20 still waiting

    Thanks. It seems the regional placings are like hen's teeth. No surprise really, plenty of existing AP's knocking about on the panels, including internals.




  • Maybenever wrote: »
    Thanks. It seems the regional placings are like hen's teeth. No surprise really, plenty of existing AP's knocking about on the panels, including internals.

    It's no surprise because of the high concentration of POs in Dublin which isn't replicated elsewhere.




  • hardybuck wrote: »
    It's no surprise because of the high concentration of POs in Dublin which isn't replicated elsewhere.

    True, but the high demand means that there could actually be meaningful decentralization if management wanted it. There's a dependency issue I think, people like to have everyone at everything but with a little more organization and planning, things could run just as smoothly. In my Dept. anyway.




  • Maybenever wrote: »
    True, but the high demand means that there could actually be meaningful decentralization if management wanted it. There's a dependency issue I think, people like to have everyone at everything but with a little more organization and planning, things could run just as smoothly. In my Dept. anyway.

    For some Depts it probably would work. For mine it wouldn't for probably 75% of the POs in the business - they'll be seeing a lot of the Sec Gen and Minister.

    I'd like to see more use of hubs - places on the outskirts of the M50 with decent links to the city centre if they're needed there. I'm sure many people could plug into a hub a few days a week and work just as well.




  • hardybuck wrote: »
    For some Depts it probably would work. For mine it wouldn't for probably 75% of the POs in the business - they'll be seeing a lot of the Sec Gen and Minister.

    I'd like to see more use of hubs - places on the outskirts of the M50 with decent links to the city centre if they're needed there. I'm sure many people could plug into a hub a few days a week and work just as well.

    I agree - you could put hubs out as far as Athlone and have them go into Dublin (say) 2 days a week for meetings etc. It is a bit ridiculous that so many of the POs are based exclusively and full time in Dublin. You wouldn't even need to make big changes to work practices for a more hub/remote type model to work


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  • hardybuck wrote: »
    For some Depts it probably would work. For mine it wouldn't for probably 75% of the POs in the business - they'll be seeing a lot of the Sec Gen and Minister.

    I'd like to see more use of hubs - places on the outskirts of the M50 with decent links to the city centre if they're needed there. I'm sure many people could plug into a hub a few days a week and work just as well.
    Not sure why you'd want to be pushing more traffic onto the M50? Just let people work from home with good online connectivity.


    But I'm not sure the decentralisation works for any policy-related work. I know some Dept Housing folks from Wexford were in Dublin 2-3 days a week. That amount of travel isn't good for health or family. It's OK for processing units like social protection or some revenue units, but not for policy.




  • Not sure why you'd want to be pushing more traffic onto the M50? Just let people work from home with good online connectivity.


    But I'm not sure the decentralisation works for any policy-related work. I know some Dept Housing folks from Wexford were in Dublin 2-3 days a week. That amount of travel isn't good for health or family. It's OK for processing units like social protection or some revenue units, but not for policy.

    Have to say I disagree - I know loads that would take a "Dublin based" role if they could operate out of a more regional hub and just go into Dublin 2/3 days a week.




  • But I'm not sure the decentralisation works for any policy-related work. I know some Dept Housing folks from Wexford were in Dublin 2-3 days a week.

    I know people based in Kerry in Dublin on a regular basis

    Moving entire Departments and, as you say, policy areas in particular has not worked. The previous approach to Decentralisation worked but at a cost of career progression.




  • Riskymove wrote: »
    I know people based in Kerry in Dublin on a regular basis

    Moving entire Departments and, as you say, policy areas in particular has not worked. The previous approach to Decentralisation worked but at a cost of career progression.

    And that’s a key point, isn’t it? If you take a role outside Dublin, it’s a lot harder to move up the chain without moving back into Dublin.




  • Aitor wrote: »
    And that’s a key point, isn’t it? If you take a role outside Dublin, it’s a lot harder to move up the chain without moving back into Dublin.

    In the original phase of decentralization there were very few upper management roles. There may be only one PO for example so yes that was an issue

    In the more recent programme there can be places with a number of PO roles but the reality has been such roles are required to spend a lot of time in Dublin if in policy areas. So there are better opportunities but they may come with a cost


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  • adrem wrote: »
    I agree - you could put hubs out as far as Athlone and have them go into Dublin (say) 2 days a week for meetings etc. It is a bit ridiculous that so many of the POs are based exclusively and full time in Dublin. You wouldn't even need to make big changes to work practices for a more hub/remote type model to work

    I'd agree with this.




  • Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the panel can be used for other positions?

    edit: Actually, I presume the position offered with the gardaí answers the question?




  • The Garda post was offered as a normal post first.




  • Anyone know of any further movement on this tortuously slow panel?




  • From AHCPS


    Panels & PO Sequence

    2017 Open Principal Officer Panel: A panel of 78 is in place since 21st November 2017. There is no closure date specified and the Association has informed DPER that it is desirable that a closure date is specified for future competitions. DPER advises that such panels usually exist for in or around a two-year period. There were 1639 applicants for the competition with only 9% of successful candidates from the private sector. The last person assigned was at number 53 but 53 in all have not been assigned as successful candidates remain on the panel awaiting regional appointments.



    PO Sequence: The Arbitration Board ruling of September 2015 introduced a requirement that every two in three PO appointments must be from the Open Panel. The Association believes there is a need for a reduction of the more favoured position given to open recruitment from the Open Panel as against internal competitions. There is growing evidence that the current system hampers workforce planning and internal career development in departments. We met with DPER on 25th September 2018 to emphasise this point and that we understand many departments support this view. Following these representations DPER is to further engage with departments before reaching a final position.



    PO1 Panel: There were 12 in total placed on the panel and the last person assigned was at number 8.




  • Seems that anyone waiting for a regional placement is in for a tough ride. I know of a few on the open and there are still people on the internal.




  • Maybenever wrote: »
    Seems that anyone waiting for a regional placement is in for a tough ride. I know of a few on the open and there are still people on the internal.

    It is abundantly clear, and always has been, that those waiting for regional place will in many cases be having a tough time getting roles.




  • :rolleyes: Sure. But it seems to me that a preference for internal over external just to suit certain members of the AHCS that appear to have kicked off might not result in the best person for the job (and vice versa tbf). Although how you rank one v. the other given that there are different processes involved, I don't know.

    I stand by what I said earlier in that you could carry out many PO roles from regional locations, at least part of the week. There is clearly a demand there, perhaps the service should react? (as a discussion point)




  • Maybenever wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Sure. But it seems to me that a preference for internal over external just to suit certain members of the AHCS that appear to have kicked off might not result in the best person for the job (and vice versa tbf). Although how you rank one v. the other given that there are different processes involved, I don't know.

    I stand by what I said earlier in that you could carry out many PO roles from regional locations, at least part of the week. There is clearly a demand there, perhaps the service should react? (as a discussion point)

    Two out of every three appointments must be from the open panel. Would you be in favour of 100%?

    I think certain Departments are cheesed off that they lose some of the people they'd rather keep, and they also have the double-whammy of not knowing how many of their existing staff are on open panels, which makes planning very difficult for them.

    Regardless of the sequencing, people in regional panels will always find it more difficult.




  • Maybenever wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Sure. But it seems to me that a preference for internal over external just to suit certain members of the AHCS that appear to have kicked off might not result in the best person for the job (and vice versa tbf). Although how you rank one v. the other given that there are different processes involved, I don't know.

    I stand by what I said earlier in that you could carry out many PO roles from regional locations, at least part of the week. There is clearly a demand there, perhaps the service should react? (as a discussion point)

    Positions are based on the service needs of Departments, not where people would like to work.


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  • [QUOTE=Maybenever;108376207Although how you rank one v. the other given that there are different processes involved, I don't know.

    [/QUOTE]

    Sometimes it is simply "better the devil you know" for Departments. Open panels retain a bit of the unknown though also opportunities...but they think they know what they are getting with an internal promotion.




  • There seems to be a real lack of clarity re appointments. The agreement from 2015 regarding appointments to PO explicitly said the sequence of appointment was to be 2 from the open, one from internal then 2 from the open and so on.
    What the AHCPS and Departments seem to think operates is the old system of liabilities (2 to 1) i.e. a Department can build liabilities up on the open or internal panel and 'pay them off' at a future date.
    Sequencing is different. Obviously if only one panel exists, it can create a problem with following the sequence but the idea is that an internal panel would be formed every 2 years to coincide with the formation of a new open panel.
    Departments were instructed in 2015 to fulfill any current liabilities they had and then to follow the sequence of appointment as closely as possible. By the sounds of it, Departments are not following the rules of sequencing, either on purpose or in blissful ignorance. The sequencing is supposed to be monitored by DPER and Departments are supposed to report periodically on appointments. If a Department can access both an internal panel and an open one then they have no excuse to not follow the prescribed sequence.




  • Jim O Callaghan asked all Departments a Parliamentary Question about appointment from this panel last week. Sorry I can't post links but the answers are on the Oireachtas website.




  • Nocrac wrote: »
    Jim O Callaghan asked all Departments a Parliamentary Question about appointment from this panel last week. Sorry I can't post links but the answers are on the Oireachtas website.

    Cheers. It's at: http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PQ-16-10-2018-281




  • Xofpod wrote: »

    Thanks for this. Very interesting and Justice appear to be balancing things as they should - it’s a pity the PQ didn’t go across all Departments!




  • Rosen wrote: »
    Thanks for this. Very interesting and Justice appear to be balancing things as they should - it’s a pity the PQ didn’t go across all Departments!

    He also asked it for other departments and agencies. https://www.kildarestreet.com/search/?pid=428&s=section%3Awrans&pop=1




  • Bear in mind that posts filled from specialist open competitions, and posts filled by transfers from other areas of the civil service, also go towards meeting a Department’s external liabilities. So it’s not just a matter of how many they take from the general Open panel.




  • Am I missing something in the last table (to q 182) - or has the 2:1 just been reversed?

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2018-10-16a.215




  • The last person assigned was at number 53
    Number 55 was assigned today :cool:


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  • Is anyone aware of movement since late October?


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