Being a barrister

JeSuisSeosamh

Right, I have a pre career guidance thing next week and we have to write out a short paragraph on a potential career. I went to watch the court the last day and I really enjoyed watching the advocates in the civil cases in particular. I have read from previous and potentially outdated threads that there is no future for barristers who doesn't have connections, is this still the case today or perhaps is there a chance for someone who has a real interest in law and a knack for debating. Everyone I know believes that barristers earn a small fortune, I know this is not the case, but are the wages reasonable to live off? If not is it possible to get another job when you are called to the bar? Or do you have to relentlessly pour your heart and soul into it? (which I have no objections to) thanks

Mr. Incognito

Takes about five years to break even unless you have serious connections. Only 5 to 10 out of each intake of 120 odd survive. Its brutal.

Senior counsel make a good living and a few super juniors but it takes a long time and a lot of ability to get there.

No connections can cure stupid.

MarkAnthony

Contrary to popular belief the legal profession is not a closed shop. Rock up on day one having done sod all during your undergraduate degree then expect it to seem so. Engage with any of a hundred different things and you'll have barristers falling over themselves to help even gob****es like me.

Almost everyone had a tough start and are more than willing to point you in the right direction. Some have the benefit of mammy and daddy but most make their own luck from my very limited experience.

Expect 5 years or so of living on beans on toast but if you're young and living at home, that's not the issue it is for many older people joining the bar. Furthermore it's the same in many jobs.

Best of luck but make sure you research it fully, get on to the lawlibrary website, cold call some barristers and see if you can shadow one or two of them for a day or two.

On heart and soul; anyone I know that's still there after 5 years is because they see it as a vocation, if you don't find that pretty quickly you've a fantastic qualification to find public sector work.

FreudianSlippers

These days 5 years is probably optimistic IMO. I don't think anyone is sure where the Legal Services Regulation Bill will end up and the BL doesn't really help you abroad.

If I were making the choice right now, I'd probably go Law Soc. I enjoy being a barrister, but it's super depressing around the bar at the moment for most people less than 7-10 years down.

On the other hand, you could take a gamble on the Legal Services Bill, get 2 excellent masters and give it a go. It might work out great.

It seems to be the uncertainty that is the worst.

Uno my Uno.

The Bar certainly seems pretty brutal at the moment. Most of the Junior Barristers I know are only just hanging in by their fingernails. The few I do know who are making a reasonable living are exceptional and would probably be in the top 2% or 3% in any field.

Thinks aren't entirely rosy in the Law Society at the moment either. Outside of the big 5 firms Trainees can expect very little above minimum wage and not much of a bump post qualification.

I'm not trying to put people off following a legal career but Law is just as much a Vocation as Medicine in my opinion. Regardless of the level you operate at, the amount of work required to get the rewards (both monetary and non-financial) is so high that you really do need to want to do it for its own sake.

JeSuisSeosamh

Well, for me law has always been in the back of my mind and to be honest, As long as I was earning a reasonable living doing something which I love, I wouldn't care too much. I am willing to work as hard as it is going to take. Whats this about the Legal Services Bill? Does this mean barristers will be allowed form chambers as is allowed in the u.k.?

jobbridge4life

It will be tough. Very tough. As other posters have said being willing to work hard (and I do mean hard) and being skilled will help but for every dedicated, fastidious young lawyer who makes it there are a huge number of equally talented committed colleagues who are either suffering on the breadline or moving to different careers. Recent graduate recruitment into the civil service resulted in many practicing barristers being taken on. By all means if it is a passion of yours then go for it. You have more chance at success in a field that you feel inspired to work in than you do in another industry with statistically better opportunities but do so in full knowledge of the facts.

MarkAnthony

JeSuisSeosamh wrote: »

Well, for me law has always been in the back of my mind and to be honest, As long as I was earning a reasonable living doing something which I love, I wouldn't care too much. I am willing to work as hard as it is going to take. Whats this about the Legal Services Bill? Does this mean barristers will be allowed form chambers as is allowed in the u.k.?

Be aware reasonable is subjective. Expect a pint to be a treat would be my advice. People keep telling me I need to diet, then I tell them I want to be a barrister when I grow up and they say 'Ahhh' and nod their heads.

JeSuisSeosamh

How infrequent is work during the first 1-3 years, Could you work as a paralegal and then take off any days you have a case?

Tom Young

There is no frequency of work in the first two years, nor is there any to be expected, wherein at those times you are expected to work as a devil.

FreudianSlippers

Tom Young wrote: »

There is no frequency of work in the first two years, nor is there any to be expected, wherein at those times you are expected to work as a devil.

In my experience as a devil, whilst one could work a part-time job out of office hours, I was devilling 40 hours a week.

Tom Young

If the next question arising is: "Well do I have to work 40 hours a week?"

The immediate answer is that its called practicing at the bar, because practice it is. A modular or part time apprenticeship is about as useless as ironing your underpants.

Everyone likes the feeling of ironed underpants, but ironing them is of little or no benefit, unless you come from the African continent, where flies can lay eggs in your undies and burrow into your skin. In that circumstance, terms and conditions apply and there is a precautionary health benefit to such activity.

hullaballoo

I've insects burrowing into my pockets and I've never even been to Africa.

smeal

It's a tough tough career. Most young barristers I know are struggling and that's not to say they aren't exceptionally bright, hardworking and dedicated individuals working long hours for peanuts or nothing. Some are getting work here and there and they could potentially be on good money however it takes months sometimes even year for fees to finally be coughed up.

I have to say though, the one or two that I do know who have stuck at it appear to be those from Dublin who can live at home, don't need to pay rent and probably have a meal on the table when they come home. You will find quite quite a few barristers working as lecturers on the side and I know a barrister who helped out with FLAC in college that works in a bar at the weekend while still working on whatever cases he can get.

As someone above already said, the solicitor route isn't much easier either. Outside the big 10, be prepared to take out loans, work on minimum rates and work long long areas doing plenty of the office dirty work in order to succeed but I will say, once qualified, if you're in any way good you will be on track to making a decent career.

Here's a good article
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/the-long-winding-and-very-expensive-road-to-practising-at-the-bar-1.1983743

johnnyskeleton

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Takes about five years to break even unless you have serious connections. Only 5 to 10 out of each intake of 120 odd survive. Its brutal.

By break even do you not make a loss each year, recoup the oulay for kings inns etc or to make a basic wage having paid back all thr outlay?

1/6 surviving does sound a bit low though, the statistic put out is that numbers have gone from c. 1100 in 1998 to c. 2200 now, suggesting that more than 50 people from each year stick with it More or less.

MarkAnthony

Look, every single person posting here it probably a barrister and I want to stress they've forgotten more than I'll ever likely know. What I will say is I have contact with a few young barristers and it is very, very tough. That said some do make it, not making it leaves you with loads of other options and many manage to find related side work that keeps them in underpants, ironed or otherwise. I've also heard tell, at the criminal bar at least (by that I mean the criminal side) things are beginning to look up ever so slightly.

I just wanted to also say Tom Young has a talent for metaphor (or is it simile) that is quite unmatched and much admired!

conorh91

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

1/6 surviving does sound a bit low though, the statistic put out is that numbers have gone from c. 1100 in 1998 to c. 2200 now, suggesting that more than 50 people from each year stick with it More or less.

There was probably a higher distribution of persistence towards the early years of that time period, because of an availability of savings, credit, wealthy parents, part-time work, and optimism during the Celtic Tiger, which perhaps caused new entrants to the Bar to stick around for longer. Bear also in mind that the curve was still rising back then, we hadn't reached the 'peak-barrister', and so there was less doom and gloom for that reason too. So they all stuck around, and many of them are still sticking around, earning modest incomes because nobody wants to throw in the towel after 10 years of practice.

Perhaps there was also less dominance by established barristers in the Tiger years because their own financial position already seemed secure. Today, even established barristers are under serious financial pressure, are taking more cases, and are not retiring as young as they might have retired in 2005, and there is little space for aspiring expert-practitioners.

I'm also not sure whether in the early years, you'd have had the same concentration of old-timers who are paid-up members of the Law Library, but do practically no work, and potter around the place comfortably, on their public-service pensions.

The amount of devils with genuine hopes of being the next Dermot Gleeson (audacious little pups), and who don't eventually opt for an easier life in the public service, teaching or industry, is absolutely tiny.

lawfilly

Basically every barrister here is going to tell you its a miserable life because we don't want anymore competition at the Bar! :cool:

If you can reconcile that its the roll of dice whether you'll succeed (with a sizeable financial outlay) and dont mind being poor and wearing a stuffy gown in court, I would say go for it! Devilling can be tough but actually rewarding!

conorh91

lawfilly wrote: »

Basically every barrister here is going to tell you its a miserable life because we don't want anymore competition at the Bar! :cool:

It's gone way beyond that. There is no question but that the Inns is over-subscribed, or that talented new entrants are drowned-out, or both.

lawfilly wrote: »

its the roll of dice whether you'll succeed

Dice, yes. How many dice?

Each face of a fair die has a 16% chance of being rolled. The present viability-rate is is a fraction of that.

lawfilly

I have a very sizable number of friends at the Bar, all of which are doing alright and some very well.

I kind of hate the bitter attitude I sometimes see to the Bar, enter with your eyes open but dont pass up the opportunity to do something to love or want to do because people say it's not viable.

Better to tried and failed than to have not tried at all!

NoQuarter

Devil. But keep your options open while you're doing it and just jump ship if it's not working out or you become too poor.

conorh91

lawfilly wrote: »

dont pass up the opportunity to do something to love or want to do because people say it's not viable.

Nobody is saying otherwise.

My criticism has always been of the Inns' places, its aggressive marketing strategy, and of the institutional-design restriction of competition at the Bar, which will hopefully be addressed by the Legal Services Bill and improve competitiveness.

johnnyskeleton

conorh91 wrote: »

There was probably a higher distribution of persistence towards the early years of that time period, because of an availability of savings, credit, wealthy parents, part-time work, and optimism during the Celtic Tiger, which perhaps caused new entrants to the Bar to stick around for longer. Bear also in mind that the curve was still rising back then, we hadn't reached the 'peak-barrister', and so there was less doom and gloom for that reason too. So they all stuck around, and many of them are still sticking around, earning modest incomes because nobody wants to throw in the towel after 10 years of practice.

Perhaps there was also less dominance by established barristers in the Tiger years because their own financial position already seemed secure. Today, even established barristers are under serious financial pressure, are taking more cases, and are not retiring as young as they might have retired in 2005, and there is little space for aspiring expert-practitioners.

I'm also not sure whether in the early years, you'd have had the same concentration of old-timers who are paid-up members of the Law Library, but do practically no work, and potter around the place comfortably, on their public-service pensions.

The amount of devils with genuine hopes of being the next Dermot Gleeson (audacious little pups), and who don't eventually opt for an easier life in the public service, teaching or industry, is absolutely tiny.

Well in the article cited above, of the 146 barristers who started practice in 2009, "only" 110 were still in practice in 2014. Thats a lot of people leaving, but not nearly as bad as the 5/10 remaining as suggested earlier.

lawfilly

conorh91 wrote: »

Nobody is saying otherwise.

My criticism has always been of the Inns' places, its aggressive marketing strategy, and of the institutional-design restriction of competition at the Bar, which will hopefully be addressed by the Legal Services Bill and improve competitiveness.

No point waiting for the Bill. It will never see the light of day. Being a barrister is a business. It does not owe you a living, you must seek that out for yourself. There is actually plenty of flexibility to build a good business.

As for the Inns, its numbers are down significantly in the last few years which is why its branching out its course.

conorh91

lawfilly wrote: »

Being a barrister is a business. It does not owe you a living

I'm so tired of this. If it's a normal business, let it compete in the commercial world like normal business, where efficient firms co-ordinate their skills' base and invest in young talent.

Indeed, nobody is owed a living, that's my point: nobody should be protected from ordinary commercial activity.

Lets sink or swim in the real world.

conorh91

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Well in the article cited above, of the 146 barristers who started practice in 2009, "only" 110 were still in practice in 2014. Thats a lot of people leaving, but not nearly as bad as the 5/10 remaining as suggested earlier.

Yes, that's 2009. We're five-and-a-half years on now.

I am not trying to discourage anyone. I just want to know what kind of graduates the Bar Council thinks are being attracted to the Bar.

If you're a bright young thing, dripping with intelligence and talent, are you really going to spend 12+ years in pennilessness, after undergraduate years are included? Why should aspiring barristers choose the Bar over medicine or the finance professions? I think a certain level of mediocrity is already creeping in.

FreudianSlippers

conorh91 wrote: »

It's gone way beyond that. There is no question but that the Inns is over-subscribed, or that talented new entrants are drowned-out, or both.

Dice, yes. How many dice?

Each face of a fair die has a 16% chance of being rolled. The present viability-rate is is a fraction of that.

I think it's those Dungeons and Dragons die.

lawfilly wrote: »

I have a very sizable number of friends at the Bar, all of which are doing alright and some very well.

I kind of hate the bitter attitude I sometimes see to the Bar, enter with your eyes open but dont pass up the opportunity to do something to love or want to do because people say it's not viable.

Better to tried and failed than to have not tried at all!

The difference between knowing people at the bar and being at the bar is the uncanny ability you develop as a barrister to:
1) Lie Exaggerate how well you are doing;
2) Sniff out those lies from others.


I'd be interested to know how long these people are down, because I have heard from people who are down for 20+ years that this is one of the leanest times they have ever faced.

I know first-hand and through many people under 7 years that after paying the Bar Council they are zeroed out for the year.


I'm not saying there aren't some people doing ok, but there aren't many doing "well".

Uno my Uno.

JeSuisSeosamh wrote: »

How infrequent is work during the first 1-3 years, Could you work as a paralegal and then take off any days you have a case?

I wouldn't think so.

Some of those posters who are at the Bar might be able to comment and either confirm or deny my next point. I have can sense and have seen a real Miasma amongst smart and hardworking barristers who are between 5 and 7 years down and are still not really making a reasonable* living. they are paying the rent, going out for a drink once in a while and maybe getting away to France for a week in August but they have no savings, no financial security and live in fear of an unexpected expenditure like an illness or their car breaking down because they could not pay it.

Whilst they knew before they started that it would be a struggle for several years they expected that at this point in their careers things would have started to turn around. They thought that after the best part of decade's hard work and dedication they would be on an upward slope that has failed to materialize. Some of them are faced with having to leave the profession they have given 10 or 12 years of their life to if they ever want to stop living like they did in their twenties when things like Mortgage deposits and health insurance were things that only mattered to silly old fools.

What do others think? Is this just my experience or is it something others have noticed as well? Or am I way off base and its all in my head?







*a relative term lets remember.

johnnyskeleton

conorh91 wrote: »

Yes, that's 2009. We're five-and-a-half years on now.

Yes. The point being that if 5 years is the natural attrittion point, the last batch of 5 year barristers has roughly 70% remaining.

FreudianSlippers

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Yes. The point being that if 5 years is the natural attrittion point, the last batch of 5 year barristers has roughly 70% remaining.

It may have been the natural attrition point for people hitting 5 years in 2009; it certainly isn't for people starting out in 2009 (if they make it 5 years that is).

johnnyskeleton

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It may have been the natural attrition point for people hitting 5 years in 2009; it certainly isn't for people starting out in 2009 (if they make it 5 years that is).

That statistic is for people starting in 2009 as far as i am aware

JeSuisSeosamh

Thanks for the advice everybody. barrister, solicitor or something legal are the only professions which I can realistically see myself doing in a few years. Would you after devilling be earning more working than unemployed on social welfare? Considering the advice above and the 9 years between me and post devilling, should I stay away from the bar and perhaps consider becoming a solicitor? Or going to England and becoming a barrister there

hullaballoo

It's practically impossible to get into practice in the UK as a barrister. It's said it's even more difficult than here with figures such as 8% of those who qualify getting into chambers. That's second-hand information but I haven't heard of many who have gone to the UK and been successful as a barrister.

After devilling, you cannot expect to be earning anything. Even if you're lucky enough to be one of the few who makes a few contacts from their master and you're getting work, you won't be seeing that money for a good while in a lot of cases.

You would be financially better off on the dole, to answer your question.

Uno my Uno.

JeSuisSeosamh wrote: »

Thanks for the advice everybody. barrister, solicitor or something legal are the only professions which I can realistically see myself doing in a few years. Would you after devilling be earning more working than unemployed on social welfare? Considering the advice above and the 9 years between me and post devilling, should I stay away from the bar and perhaps consider becoming a solicitor? Or going to England and becoming a barrister there

Considering that you are still in the Junior Cycle of secondary school (as I understand it) these aren't questions you even need to consider for several years. If it is a legal career you want you should set your focus on Studying Law at College and doing well at it. Decisions about the Bar, the Law Society or the UK can all be made after you have done a BA.

I have two friends who both wanted to be Barristers since age 15, neither studied Law at BA level and neither made the decision to go to the Bar until after they had finished an MA. Both are Successful Junior Counsel now.

hullaballoo wrote: »

It's practically impossible to get into practice in the UK as a barrister. It's said it's even more difficult than here with figures such as 8% of those who qualify getting into chambers. That's second-hand information but I haven't heard of many who have gone to the UK and been successful as a barrister.

After devilling, you cannot expect to be earning anything. Even if you're lucky enough to be one of the few who makes a few contacts from their master and you're getting work, you won't be seeing that money for a good while in a lot of cases.

You would be financially better off on the dole, to answer your question.

I'm open to correction on this but I believe it is somewhat less competitive outside of the London Bar. Cities such Manchester, Birmingham and Newcastle have large circuits I believe but many baby barristers (especially from these shores) fail to consider them due to a London or bust approach.

NoQuarter

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

Considering that you are still in the Junior Cycle of secondary school (as I understand it) these aren't questions you even need to consider for several years. If it is a legal career you want you should set your focus on Studying Law at College and doing well at it. Decisions about the Bar, the Law Society or the UK can all be made after you have done a BA.

I think this is awful advice if I'm honest. You could set yourself up nicely with extra curriculars and work experience and internships from the time you leave secondary school. Dont wait until after your BA to know what you want to do, not to say you cant be successful if you do that, but waiting until after your B.A means you will miss a lot of opportunities to line yourself up with where you want to be if you know from an earlier age.

Uno my Uno.

NoQuarter wrote: »

I think this is awful advice if I'm honest. You could set yourself up nicely with extra curriculars and work experience and internships from the time you leave secondary school. Dont wait until after your BA to know what you want to do, not to say you cant be successful if you do that, but waiting until after your B.A means you will miss a lot of opportunities to line yourself up with where you want to be if you know from an earlier age.

This is all correct and good advice, I didn't mean for my comments to suggest that anyone should do the minimum or not pursue their interests and I should have been clearer on that.

The only point I wanted to make was that it's not necessary to chose between branches of the profession until reasonably late on as the career paths don't necessarily diverge until someone is quite a way down that path.

234

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

I'm open to correction on this but I believe it is somewhat less competitive outside of the London Bar. Cities such Manchester, Birmingham and Newcastle have large circuits I believe but many baby barristers (especially from these shores) fail to consider them due to a London or bust approach.

It's pretty much a pupillage desert on circuit.

conorh91

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Yes. The point being that if 5 years is the natural attrittion point

My point is that those figures apply to people called over in 2009. The youngest of them would have started undergraduate studies during the Celtic Tiger. I was trying to convey that there's a different economic dynamic at play now (and hundreds more BL degrees have come off the production lines since then).

Mr Incognito's number seems low, but yours seems too high.

The_Minister

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Well in the article cited above, of the 146 barristers who started practice in 2009, "only" 110 were still in practice in 2014. Thats a lot of people leaving, but not nearly as bad as the 5/10 remaining as suggested earlier.

Many of those are not really in practice - there are people who maintain their membership but don't get any work - there's one lad who just sits at a computer all day on social media and reddit.

There are a huge number of them who are subsidised by parents and just grab at scraps.

JeSuisSeosamh wrote: »

Thanks for the advice everybody. barrister, solicitor or something legal are the only professions which I can realistically see myself doing in a few years. Would you after devilling be earning more working than unemployed on social welfare? Considering the advice above and the 9 years between me and post devilling, should I stay away from the bar and perhaps consider becoming a solicitor? Or going to England and becoming a barrister there

Social welfare will get you more money in early years unless you have connections.

conorh91

The_Minister wrote: »

There are a huge number of them who are subsidised by parents and just grab at scraps.

Social welfare will get you more money in early years unless you have connections.

Correct, although I would suspect Joan Burton is responsible for the upkeep of as many barristers as wealthy parents are.

bobboberson

Hello

I have a question for any barristers out there, for criminal cases are you put on a list for the DPP/free legal aid?


Bob

conorh91

Yes, to avail of the legal aid schemes it is necessary to be entered on a criminal legal aid (barristers) panel or one of the prosecution panels (there are various panels: prosecution on indictment in Dublin; judicial review; High Court bail applications, etc etc).