Attic Conversion - Fire Regulations

lawred2

Hi,

Considering converting the attic into some form of useful space.. This will ultimately result in a three storey house.

If I'm planning on only putting velux windows to the back; do I require planning permission?

Also with regards to fire doors; do I have to replace all doors throughout the house that open out on to the hall/landing where the stairs are with self closing fire doors?

lawred2

Also the loft conversion leaflet from the DOE makes no mention of minimum height limits for a habitable space..

Is there a requirement?

Ours is about 2.6m from floor to roof.

Gumbo

lawred2 wrote: »

Hi,

Considering converting the attic into some form of useful space.. This will ultimately result in a three storey house.

If I'm planning on only putting velux windows to the back; do I require planning permission?

Also with regards to fire doors; do I have to replace all doors throughout the house that open out on to the hall/landing where the stairs are with self closing fire doors?

lawred2 wrote: »

Also the loft conversion leaflet from the DOE makes no mention of minimum height limits for a habitable space..

Is there a requirement?

Ours is about 2.6m from floor to roof.

Generally speaking, without seeing the property, which you need professional advice on, these would be the minimum requirements :

Attic floors need to be structurally strengthened to take the loading of the use.
The attic floor now needs to be fire rated in accordance with TGD part B, off the top of my head, 30 mins structural, 15 mins insulation and 15 mins integrity.
Protected escape route from the attic room now has to be fire rated with all habitable doors leading into the route being FD20 which I beleive can be achieved by adding a self closing device to existing doors.

You have to upgrade the fire alarm and detection system to take account of the additional storey.

You also need the velux windows to be positioned as such that they are escapable or rescueable, again in accordance with Section B1 of the TGD Part B.

lawred2

kceire wrote: »

Generally speaking, without seeing the property, which you need professional advice on, these would be the minimum requirements :

Attic floors need to be structurally strengthened to take the loading of the use.
The attic floor now needs to be fire rated in accordance with TGD part B, off the top of my head, 30 mins structural, 15 mins insulation and 15 mins integrity.
Protected escape route from the attic room now has to be fire rated with all habitable doors leading into the route being FD20 which I beleive can be achieved by adding a self closing device to existing doors.

You have to upgrade the fire alarm and detection system to take account of the additional storey.

You also need the velux windows to be positioned as such that they are escapable or rescueable, again in accordance with Section B1 of the TGD Part B.

Thanks a lot.

All that seems perfectly fair.. only stuff I'd want to be doing anyway. I don't want a cowboy job.

Most literature I've read states that planning permission is not a requirement if only putting velux windows to the back of the house... Does that usually hold?

sydthebeat

lawred2 wrote: »

Most literature I've read states that planning permission is not a requirement if only putting velux windows to the back of the house... Does that usually hold?

thats a murky, grey, foggy, vague, fuzzy, dim, muddled planning question

Contact your local authority and apply for a section 5 declaration

lawred2

Cheers. Never heard of that but that does sound like a sensible thing to do.

Calahonda52

kceire wrote: »

You also need the velux windows to be positioned as such that they are escapable or rescueable, again in accordance with Section B1 of the TGD Part B.

This requirement I believe restricts you to top hinged windows only and also requires the roof to be upgraded fire spec wise as well, if I recall its 30/30/30.

I mention this only as I had a client who wanted thin pine cladding in the attic space, so I specced plasterboard first across roof rafters to find the builder left it out, told client no need.

Gumbo

Calahonda52 wrote: »

This requirement I believe restricts you to top hinged windows only and also requires the roof to be upgraded fire spec wise as well, if I recall its 30/30/30.

I mention this only as I had a client who wanted thin pine cladding in the attic space, so I specced plasterboard first across roof rafters to find the builder left it out, told client no need.

Yep. All true.
Just remember the roof is not considered a structural element for building regulation purposes.

You may need to upgrade the roof with regards to the linings or for external fire spread too, but you shouldn't have to typically.

BryanF

kceire wrote: »

You may need to upgrade the roof with regards to the linings or for external fire spread too, but you shouldn't have to typically.

shouldn't it be specified 'to ensure spread of Fire at compartment boundaries are installed/ checked'

Gumbo

BryanF wrote: »

shouldn't it be specified 'to ensure spread of Fire at compartment boundaries are installed/ checked'

Yes 100%.

lawred2

Are spiral stairs acceptable or not to regulations?

DOCARCH

lawred2 wrote: »

Are spiral stairs acceptable or not to regulations?

Depends...they can be...see Section 1.1.15 http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,37830,en.pdf

lawred2

DOCARCH wrote: »

Depends...they can be...see Section 1.1.15 http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,37830,en.pdf

great...

I think a traditional stairs would end up taking a chunk out of our ensuite.. so a regulation spiral staircase would be a winner for us

sydthebeat

i think you may be under estimating the space a regulation spiral stair can take up

at a minimum, your looking at a 1.8 m wide circle... add to that a landing space at ground and first floor....

lawred2

sydthebeat wrote: »

i think you may be under estimating the space a regulation spiral stair can take up

at a minimum, your looking at a 1.8 m wide circle... add to that a landing space at ground and first floor....

That seems very excessive for attic access. That sounds more like requirements for the primary stairs.. 1.8m is a non runner for us.

What about something like this?

http://www.loftcentre.co.uk/stairs/dolle-graz-space-saving-stair-kit-loft-stair

BryanF

lawred2 wrote: »

That seems very excessive for attic access. That sounds more like requirements for the primary stairs.. 1.8m is a non runner for us.

What about something like this?

http://www.loftcentre.co.uk/stairs/dolle-graz-space-saving-stair-kit-loft-stair

You've been shown the regulations and even the relevant sections. You say you want a habitable space so you need a 'primary' stairs that complies.

lawred2

BryanF wrote: »

You've been shown the regulations and even the relevant sections. You say you want a habitable space so you need a 'primary' stairs that complies.

I never said habitable. I said useful.

But I'd also like to follow as many building, structural and fire regulations as possible.

sydthebeat

lawred2 wrote: »

I never said habitable. I said useful.

But I'd also like to follow as many building, structural and fire regulations as possible.

either habitable or storage... which is it?

lawred2

jeez you're one snarky get

it will be classed as storage like the vast majority of attic rooms

however that doesn't preclude me from trying to adhere to as many regulations as is practicable...

sheesh

sydthebeat

lawred2 wrote: »

however that doesn't preclude me from trying to adhere to as many regulations as is practicable...

he says while proposing a ladder which comforms to nothing :rolleyes:


anyway, im out.....

lawred2

sydthebeat wrote: »

he says while proposing a ladder which comforms to nothing :rolleyes:


anyway, im out.....

see ya

DOCARCH

Just one thing to bear in mind that there is a definition in Part B (of the Building Regulations) that defines a habitable room as...'A room used for living or sleeping purposes but does not include a kitchen having a floor area less than 6.5 m2, a bathroom, toilet or shower room.' No mention of heights.

So, if the attic room is to be 'useful', I'd suggest it's 'habitable'. If it has a chipboard floor and no plasterboard/insulation, I'd suggest it's 'storage'.

That's my take on it these days in the new defensive world of BCAR!

One fire officer said to me...simple rule of thumb...if your mother can get up there...it's habitable!

Handsandtools

So if you wanna classify it as a room, you need to get all fire safety right and height as well, but if you classify it as a storage space than You don't need anything. Price difference is big. as well as work involved and papers.

Heisenberg1

Am I reading this thread right? That provided that I comply with all the building regs in that loft document that I can class it as another room. I don't see anything about the minimum height is that still a requirement?

Apologies for bringing up an old thread.

Gumbo

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

Am I reading this thread right? That provided that I comply with all the building regs in that loft document that I can class it as another room. I don't see anything about the minimum height is that still a requirement?

Apologies for bringing up an old thread.

There is only a "suggested" room height under Part F of the Building Regulations.

Heisenberg1

kceire wrote: »

There is only a "suggested" room height under Part F of the Building Regulations.

So if mine isn't the suggested height does that mean I can't call it a bedroom ?

Gumbo

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

So if mine isn't the suggested height does that mean I can't call it a bedroom ?

Depends on the height I suppose. Does it meet the other criteria?
Fire door, landing, self closers to every other door entering the escape route, 30 minute modified floor in attic, escapeable window in attic and smoke detection linked back to the other detectors in the main hoise?

In my opinion it's all relative, a 2m high ceiling would be fine for me but might be tight for someone that's 6 foot something!

Heisenberg1

kceire wrote: »

Depends on the height I suppose. Does it meet the other criteria?
Fire door, landing, self closers to every other door entering the escape route, 30 minute modified floor in attic, escapeable window in attic and smoke detection linked back to the other detectors in the main hoise?

In my opinion it's all relative, a 2m high ceiling would be fine for me but might be tight for someone that's 6 foot something!

Yes I hope to meet all the regs listed, I was thinking of doing a dormer to meet the height requirement or there abouts would that add a lot more to the budget overall ?

Gumbo

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

Yes I hope to meet all the regs listed, I was thinking of doing a dormer to meet the height requirement or there abouts would that add a lot more to the budget overall ?

Yes it will add to it. Depending on size and location and structural support required. Also the structure completely depends if you have a timber frame house or traditional brick/block hoise as bearing for the steel is required.

seandeas

Guys, Hope I'm in the right place.

I live in a top floor apartment and am looking to convert it to an extra bedroom / storage space. I don't need planning permission (no dormer windows, velux facing only to the rear etc) but the Owners Management Company are asking for a fire safety cert, which is perfectly fine. I understand for a fire safety cert to be issued, that the build must comply with BCAR regulations (correct me if I'm wrong), and that conforming to BCAR will add thousands to the cost. My question is - can I get a Fire Cert without submitting Planning Permission and if so, what's the process ? One builder I've spoken to has a contact in one of those fire protection consultancy companies, but I'm not sure if they're the right people. Any advice offered would be most welcome....

thanks.

Calahonda52

Are u sure the OMC will allow a velux...
If so they will certainly want full compliance with BCAR as they own the roof, not you

seandeas

hiya

yes they have said velux is fine - as long as we don't move the purlins and sign a letter saying if there's any leaks as a result that it's my responsibility.

Gumbo

seandeas wrote: »

hiya

yes they have said velux is fine - as long as we don't move the purlins and sign a letter saying if there's any leaks as a result that it's my responsibility.

Did you tell them you are creating a new habitable room up there?
You also need planning, fire cert and DAC. Expect the cost of these to an Assigned certifier to be about €10k.

Who advised you planning wasn’t required?

seandeas

They've seen the plans and can see it'll be a bedroom - however I've checked out various websites etc and from what I can see, no planning is required unless you're breaking the roofline (dormer) or putting in velux facing the front. Because it won't have planning it can't be referred to as a habitable space, which is fine. So my question is - can I get a fire cert for a "not habitable room" - i.e. without having to apply for PP as well.

thanks.

Gumbo

seandeas wrote: »

They've seen the plans and can see it'll be a bedroom - however I've checked out various websites etc and from what I can see, no planning is required unless you're breaking the roofline (dormer) or putting in velux facing the front. Because it won't have planning it can't be referred to as a habitable space, which is fine. So my question is - can I get a fire cert for a "not habitable room" - i.e. without having to apply for PP as well.

thanks.

The planning exemptions are for residential houses.
Can you post here the link that states that work within a commercial unit is exempt. The commercial element is because it’s a building containing flats as opposed to a single family dwelling that can enjoy Velux to the rear without planning.

Also, you are creating additional floor space within the apartment block that would never have been accounted for or levied for.

But, if it is 100% planning exempt then you can apply for a fire cert and disabled access cert without planning. It’s very common.
Fire cert process currently takes about 4-6 months due to staff shortages. I have one site where 12 months later, the FSC was still pending and they are attempting to lodge completion certs but cannot because the FSC has not been approved. (7 day notice obviously).

BryanF

You need an architect or and engineer to advise. Not convinced planning isn’t required.

seandeas

thanks guys. I did have an architect however he wasn't fully up on the rules for apartments. He did suggest I apply for exemption, however I was hoping to avoid the planning process altogether. I need to find out more. 4 - 6 months for a Fire cert is crazy, so now I'm looking at 2019.
@ KCEIRE thanks for all the info, do you mind my asking what's your background ?

Gumbo

seandeas wrote: »

thanks guys. I did have an architect however he wasn't fully up on the rules for apartments. He did suggest I apply for exemption, however I was hoping to avoid the planning process altogether. I need to find out more. 4 - 6 months for a Fire cert is crazy, so now I'm looking at 2019.
@ KCEIRE thanks for all the info, do you mind my asking what's your background ?

I won’t dwell too much on a public forum but let’s just say I inspect what you want to do here quite regularily. You are the first person ever to state that planning is not required for the works you propose.

I’m happy enough that you know you need a fire cert and that means you also need a disability access cert, both of hers are full submissions, reports, drawings etc and cost quite a few quid.

I’m convinced you require planning based on my personal previous experience.

lawred2

reading back through this thread I'm not sure what I got my knickers in a twist about - was unnecessarily rude

Apologies sydthebeat

Btw we ended up with a proper regulation stairs by moving a wall.. Turned out there was a whole load of empty space behind a fitted wardrobe that we could use. So a bare minimum reduction in floor space on the first floor and the room upstairs is the best room in the house

sydthebeat

No problem at all lawred, fair dues!