Leading from in front

kildarejohn

It s generally reported that Gen. Michael Collins took a leading role in defensive action at Beal na Blath. But as a rule, generals and senior officers took up a rear position as observers, at least from the 19th century onwards.
Can anyone give information on when "leading from in front" began to be discontinued; was it a gradual process or was there a specific policy issued (e.g. by British Army) at a particular date.
Are there other examples of rebel or guerrilla leaders in the 19th/20th century who either did or did not actively fight?

tac foley

When an officer of ANY army stands up and shouts 'Follow me!' you really don't want to be looking around to see if there's actually anybody there.

It always worked for me when I was an officer.

Any teeth arms officer of field rank - Lt Col or below -field, meaning battlefield in this context - is expected to lead from the front when required to do so.

Lt Col H jones VC did at Goose Green, and died.

Lt Col Rupert Thorneloe Welsh Guards did, in his command vehicle, and also died.

A casual glance at the German Wehrmacht in WW2 reveals an astonishling high rate of combat casualties - mostly fatal - of officers of general rank, let alone their subordinates.

I can't answer your question with regard to rebel or guerilla leaders who did not take part in the 'glory gory' bits, but of course General Collins, by that time, was a genuine general in a real national Army. Had he been killed before the Truce - by the British, of course, rather than his own fellow countrymen -he would have gone down in history as a dead rebel, like so many other dead rebels, and Ireland would probably be a much different place today.

tac

kildarejohn

I read/heard that in WW1 the casualty rate among 2nd Lt's was very high - they were generally the first to go "over the top" out of the trenches. I wonder was this official policy, or just the senior officers saving themselves?

tac foley

kildarejohn wrote: »

I read/heard that in WW1 the casualty rate among 2nd Lt's was very high - they were generally the first to go "over the top" out of the trenches. I wonder was this official policy, or just the senior officers saving themselves?

You heard wrong, Sir. In WW1 every infantry platoon - around 27 men, was led by a 2nd lieutenant or lieutenant.

The chances of surviving going over the top were something like one in three.

Also remember that companies - made up of four or five platoons in those days, also went over the top in large numbers - they were commanded by Captains or junior majors - they too died in very large numbers.

Battalions also went over the top - Lt Colonels commanded them, and they died by the hundred.

The only REMFs in those days were staff officers - who had been taken out of the line and seconded to supporting the higher echelon staff officers.

They too had innumerable casualties in forward areas when the opposition got lucky with an artillery 'stonk'. Nowhere was really safe back then.

Your use of the word 'policy' is very misleading. 'Official policy' is not what the military is all about. Setting an example for the men is what it was all about, being an officer is what it was all about, and you led from the front or you didn't lead at all.

Remember, too, that 'showing lack of determination in furthering the successful waging of war' and 'failing to follow up on action, to the detriment of own troops' were Court Martial offences, and apart from risking the very good chance of being 'Dishonourably discharged the serviced by reason of displaying cowardice in the face of the enemy' was more than most men of those days could face without resorting to the Officer's Mess Webley, let alone the disgrace he would be made to feel back home.

In any case, 'showing lack of determination to take the fight to the enemy' might just get you 'accidentally' shot by your own men. They would have no compunction about ratting on a cowardly officer - one who was more likely to get THEM killed than a brave one.

tac

Fratton Fred

tac foley wrote: »

Remember, too, that 'showing lack of determination in furthering the successful waging of war' and 'failing to follow up on action, to the detriment of own troops' were Court Martial offences, and apart from risking the very good chance of being 'Dishonourably discharged

Or worse, in the case of Admiral Byng.

pedroeibar1

Great post Tac. To add a few bits to it - as you say initially in WWI many officers did lead from the front; however, standard field dress for British Army officers was jodhpurs and German machine gunners always looked for their outline as the first point of aim. Easy to spot in smoke. Robert Graves in the first half of his autobiography ‘Goodbye to All That’ (covers his WW1 life) and gives six weeks as the lifespan of an officer in the field. By 1916 so many ranking officers had been killed that there was a High Command regulation issued that no general was to visit the front line. Young lieutenants and captains were expendable. Some officers ‘led’ from behind as they had to ensure that their troops did not retreat/hide.

In WW2 a friend of mine who fought across North Africa and up through Italy (including Monte Cassino) said one never led from the front as under combat conditions you would be a target for any disgruntled soldier, who would shoot you rather than risk his own life and then have an excuse to give up on taking the objective.

kildarejohn

kildarejohn wrote: »

I read/heard that in WW1 the casualty rate among 2nd Lt's was very high

Interesting discussion on this topic over on GW forum - http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=43092

pedroeibar1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Or worse, in the case of Admiral Byng.

Byng’s execution was judicial murder - he deserves to be exonerated and it was a disgrace that it did not happen a couple of years ago when the review arose. There was a similar case – but no execution – of Admiral Sir Robert Calder, who fought Villeneuve at the battle of Cape Finisterre in 1805. In foggy conditions he signalled to break-off his highly successful initial action at nightfall, aiming to continue the battle the next day. But by then the two fleets were almost 20 miles apart, with Calder in a difficult position to leeward and he also had to protect several badly damaged ships plus two valuable Spanish prizes. He was outnumbered and faced the likelihood that ships from the ports he had been blockading might have put to sea, join up with Villeneuve's fleet and annihilate him. In the face of those odds and responsibilities he went home. Many there (mainly the Press) believed that the more risky option would have been a better decision. As a result, Calder was relieved of his command and never served at sea again. Even the French were highly sympathetic to him.

kabakuyu

kildarejohn wrote: »

Interesting discussion on this topic over on GW forum - http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=43092

One 2nd Lieut was awarded a VC for shooting four of his own men thus preventing a rout.http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127474

pedroeibar1

kabakuyu wrote: »

One 2nd Lieut was awarded a VC for shooting four of his own men thus preventing a rout.

Not quite.

No, he got the VC for rallying his troops and retaking a Turkish trench.
Regimental History Vol 2 Royal Hampshire Regiment 'On the other flank Turks outflanked the KOSBs left and also broke in between them and the Royal Fusiliers, where a company of the Essex had come up into the line; most of H 12 (a trench) was lost and a disorganised mass of men was pressed back against the Royal Fusiliers left, where crowded and narrow trenches impeded any reorganisation of defence. This situation was becoming critical , officerless men were retreating in confusion when 2Lt G R D Moore, left temporary in command of the Battalion , dashed across the open from the Hampshire's lines with a few men and stemmed the retirement by vigorous and forcible measures, actually shooting one or two panic stricken individuals. He did not stop here, having rallied and reorganised the men in a hollow, he led them back to the lost trench and cleared the Turks out, setting a magnificent example of bravery and resourcefulness which was most deservedly recognised by the Battalion's first VC since Taku Forts'

The recommendation for the VC came from the officers of the Royal Fusiliers who had watched his actions.

Moore after returning to England suffering from dysentry joined the 1st Bn Hampshire's in France and was badly wounded in the arm. He died from influenza 7 Nov 1918 and is buried Y Farm Cemetery.

tac foley

Just as an aside, back in WW2, the Soviet Red Army actually had NKVD troops advancing behind the front-line troops - their sole purpose for being there was to shoot anybody not showing sufficient anti-fascist zeal in the attack.

As for the British Army - a note on an anonymous officer's annual confidential report -
'This officer's men follow him out of sheer curiosity as to what he might do next.'

tac

tac foley

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

In WW2 a friend of mine who fought across North Africa and up through Italy (including Monte Cassino) said one never led from the front as under combat conditions you would be a target for any disgruntled soldier, who would shoot you rather than risk his own life and then have an excuse to give up on taking the objective.

My late and much-missed Uncle Micky was on the other side in WW2, and had a pretty hard time of it from start to finish, when he was left maimed and dying in a ditch near Moenchen-Gladbach in early 1945. He survived, obviously, and settled in North Wales having married my Aunt Ruby, his physiotherapist. He had many tales to tell about other people's bravery, and shrugged off his own. As a signaller/radio-operator throughout the entire war, he once told me that he had never had an officer last longer than about three months before something drastic and usually terminal happened to him. On one memorable occasion, his radio interception unit was found and shot to sh*t whilst in the middle of an investiture parade - he was getting his second wound badge and close-quarter combat award. Depending on your point of view, every officer in the unit - from the OC down to the QM - was killed or injured by the FGA Typhoons, but not a single NCO was even scratched.

tac

ChicagoJoe

Erwin Rommell was criticized for leading from the front and was wounded in July 1944. Also wounded 3 times in WW1 as a junior officer. Stonewall Jackson was wounded at the Battle of Chancellorsville losing an arm. At the Battle of Monongahela George Washington had two horses shot out from underneath and his coat pierced by a musket ball but his daring leadership helping many of the surviving soldiers to escape the onslaught and continue the war. Well I suppose it couldn't be avoided as Nelson had to be on deck at Trafalgar only to be shot by a French sniper, but still his gay lover Hardy managed to blow him a few kisses !!!

tac foley

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

..his gay lover Hardy managed to blow him a few kisses !!!

Are you suggesting that Nelson was bi-sexual? His frolics with Lady Hamilton might just pee on your theory. Perhaps you have evidence to back up your comment.

Jackson died as a result of complications resulting from the amputation surgery after being shot by his own picket. THE definitive leading from the front fatality, though, has to be that of General 'Uncle John' Segwick of the Union as he wombled up and down the front lines giving encouragement to his troops who were ducking and weaving from the excellent long-range Confederate sharpshooters set up abut 800 yards away. Seeing his boys ducking and weaving, he should have followed their excellent example and followed suite, but at an imposing six foot four inches, and a general, was predisposed to do neither. As a result of a reminder from one of his boys that there those Confederate sharpshooters set up 'only 800 yards' away, his comment has gone down in history as some of the most inappropriate last words imaginable. 'Why', he quoth 'they couldn't hit an elephant at that distance!' Ten seconds later, a 535gr hexagonal Whitworth bullet, made in Manchester England, and shot from a Whitworth rifle made in the same factory by a man determined to do his duty, his Sedgwick just under the left eye, killing him instantly, as such a shot inevitably does.

tac

kildarejohn

kildarejohn wrote: »

Can anyone give information on when "leading from in front" began to be discontinued; was it a gradual process ...

Another aspect of the original question - going back to medieval times the practice of "leading from the front" went further, and Kings or Chieftains would engage in single combat. Are there any instances of single combat in more recent times - say 17th/18th century?

Jesus.

tac foley wrote: »

'Why', he quoth 'they couldn't hit an elephant at that distance!' Ten seconds later, a 535gr hexagonal Whitworth bullet, made in Manchester England, and shot from a Whitworth rifle made in the same factory by a man determined to do his duty, his Sedgwick just under the left eye, killing h

Nice

Not quite leading from the front but there was an officer who'd survived 4 years of war and when taking part in the Irish Brigade's St Patrick's Day steeplechase, tumbled from his horse and cracked his skull. Died a short while later

pedroeibar1

kildarejohn wrote: »

Another aspect of the original question - going back to medieval times the practice of "leading from the front" went further, and Kings or Chieftains would engage in single combat. Are there any instances of single combat in more recent times - say 17th/18th century?

Aguila, head of the Spaniards at Kinsale offered to do single combat with Blount, the English general in 1601.

kabakuyu

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Not quite.

No, he got the VC for rallying his troops and retaking a Turkish trench.
Regimental History Vol 2 Royal Hampshire Regiment 'On the other flank Turks outflanked the KOSBs left and also broke in between them and the Royal Fusiliers, where a company of the Essex had come up into the line; most of H 12 (a trench) was lost and a disorganised mass of men was pressed back against the Royal Fusiliers left, where crowded and narrow trenches impeded any reorganisation of defence. This situation was becoming critical , officerless men were retreating in confusion when 2Lt G R D Moore, left temporary in command of the Battalion , dashed across the open from the Hampshire's lines with a few men and stemmed the retirement by vigorous and forcible measures, actually shooting one or two panic stricken individuals. He did not stop here, having rallied and reorganised the men in a hollow, he led them back to the lost trench and cleared the Turks out, setting a magnificent example of bravery and resourcefulness which was most deservedly recognised by the Battalion's first VC since Taku Forts'

The recommendation for the VC came from the officers of the Royal Fusiliers who had watched his actions.

Moore after returning to England suffering from dysentry joined the 1st Bn Hampshire's in France and was badly wounded in the arm. He died from influenza 7 Nov 1918 and is buried Y Farm Cemetery.

Not quite? while we all know recommendations for honours can be a complex and torturous route and that citations are sometimes quite colourful and fanciful, the fact remains he prevented a rout by shooting some of his own men thus retrieving a dangerous situation.

pedroeibar1

kabakuyu wrote: »

Not quite? while we all know recommendations for honours can be a complex and torturous route and that citations are sometimes quite colourful and fanciful, the fact remains he prevented a rout by shooting some of his own men thus retrieving a dangerous situation.

kabakuyu wrote: »

One 2nd Lieut was awarded a VC for shooting four of his own men thus preventing a rout.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

No, he got the VC for rallying his troops and retaking a Turkish trench. ………actually shooting one or two panic stricken individuals.

Yes he prevented a rout. Whether he shot none, 2 or 4 of his own men is immaterial (unless you are one!) VC’c are awarded for bravery, not shooting one’s own men. His was awarded for rallying troops and retaking a trench.

What I also found interesting was that an 18 yr. old raw, newly commissioned officer was left in charge of a battalion, which in WWI would have been full strength.

Another that was killed leading from the front was Freddy Selous, DSO, the conservationist & big game hunter - shot by a sniper in Africa. It's years since I read his biog., but I seem to recall that the German OC wrote a letter of condolence that amounted to almost an apology.

kabakuyu

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Yes he prevented a rout. Whether he shot none, 2 or 4 of his own men is immaterial (unless you are one!) VC’c are awarded for bravery, not shooting one’s own men. His was awarded for rallying troops and retaking a trench.

What I also found interesting was that an 18 yr. old raw, newly commissioned officer was left in charge of a battalion, which in WWI would have been full strength.

Another that was killed leading from the front was Freddy Selous, DSO, the conservationist & big game hunter - shot by a sniper in Africa. It's years since I read his biog., but I seem to recall that the German OC wrote a letter of condolence that amounted to almost an apology.

Hardly immaterialI think we can safely say shooting his own men was an intregral part of the act of bravery which earned him his VC, it was a brave officer who would shoot his own men to prevent a rout,if he did not take that course of action,the situation would have been lost. But as you pointed out no one got a VC for shooting their own men.
Such an act on its own would not be politically palatable to necessitate the award of the VC so more acceptable language had to be found which could be deemed appropriate for the public.
As far as I can recall Moor was left in temporary command of the Battalion, most likely because the other officers had become casualties, as for the numbers in the battalion at the time, it was highly unlikely that it was at full strength, the 2nd hants had landed on the 25/4/1915 and would have suffered quite a high casualty rate by June,the battalion war diary would have information on how many drafts were inducted to replace casualties, but usually the drafts did not replace fully the casualties.
I seem to recall that some members of an Irish battalion fired on an English battalion who had been spooked and took to their heels, I will have to seek out the reference.
I will look out for info on Selous, I presume the selous scouts were named after him?

pedroeibar1

Thanks for the extra info.
Yes, the Scouts (and the Game Reserve) were named after him. The book was a freebie download, a bit of a paean, I'll see if I have it on an old back-up and post the title.

ChicagoJoe

Napoleon as a young officer led from the front been wounded in the thigh at his first battle the Siege of Toulon where he had brilliantly reorganized it's defenses driving off the British and Spanish invaders leading to promotion to Brigadier General at the age of only 24. Richard III in 1485 was the last English king killed in battle at the Battle of Bosworth.

pedroeibar1

The link to the book I mentioned on Selous is here

tac foley

Two friends of mine were in the Selous Scouts. Both now live in Durban along with their entire families after Mr Mugabe made their lives untenable. In return, they made their tobacco farms unusable. When Mugabe's thugs came to compulsorily take them over, they found that every building was booby-trapped, all the wells filled with concrete and the acres of tobacco waiting harvesting burnt to the ground and the ground sown with gasoline.

Word came afterwards that eighteen had died and many were injured, hopefully badly.

I have a 7mm Mauser rifle that belonged to the great-grandfather of one of the Scouts - you can see it in action on tac's guns Mauser rifle.

tac

steddyeddy

Did Napoleon lead from the front during his early campaigns?

tac foley

No doubt, as a junior officer, he would have led from somewhere near the front, bearing in mind that his metier was artillery, rather than infantry.

Being a gunner has a few perks, apart from making a lot of noise and general long-distance unpleasantness - principally that the battery commander has to stand back out of the smoke to see the effect of his guns.

tac