My four year old has just been discriminated based on her religion!

positron

And now I know how it feels like. It feels like someone punched my in my lower abdomen. It feels as if I am a primate covered in my own feces and a bunch of 'civilized high society' is looking down at us from their high power position.

It feels like they thinks my smart, intelligent and super compassionate four year old girl - who is everything I live for - is not up to their standards because her father (me) wanted to keep the simple values of honesty and integrity and respect (which is why I decided not to lie to a priest or a church).

Forgetting how I feel about it for a moment, come September, I don't know how I am going to explain to my four year old that she's "special" that she can't go to the same school where all of her neighbors and creche buddies are going to. She already knows this 'BIG' school where she was going to go as it's right next to her creche. It's literally 10 mins walk away from our house. Instead she will have to be taken a school far away in a car, every morning, which I think also puts an end to my wife's ambitions to go back to work for another while.

I can't believe in this discrimination is allowed in this day and age. Imagine what would happen if the local butchers or barber shop decided to prioritize their clients based on religion or hair colour!!

/Rant. Apparently I am an "untouchable". I am just gutted, that's all. :(


PS: A late edit to late comers to this thread. I understand that this is a dividing type of topic. I have come around from my initial disappointment and have decided that it's no big deal. Financial and other costs of course, but we will survive. I have also posted more details on the thread, to avoid any speculation why the place was not offered, patronage etc etc. We are all suffering, in various ways!

PPS: School's enrollment policy from their website:

In the event of the number of children seeking enrolment in any given class / standard exceeding the number
of places available preceding or during the school year the following criteria will be used to prioritise children
for enrolment, and in the following order:
a. Catholic children living within the catchment area**, and sisters and brothers of pupils
attending ..school..
b. Children of current staff, including ancillary staff;
c. Catholic children living outside the catchment area who do not have a Catholic school within
their own parish boundary;
d. Other children living within the catchment area;
e. Other children living outside the catchment area;
f. In the event that priority will be required to be given to children within any one of the above
categories, older children will be given priority.
g. It is proposed to enrol a maximum of 150 pupils for the school year 2012/2013.

Rosy Posy

I understand how emotive it can be to feel that your child has been excluded because you refuse to ally yourself with a particular religious denomination, but think for a moment, if you don't want your child indoctrinated into this religion then why would you send her to this school? I speak as a parent who chooses to send her kids to a school ten miles away that embodies the philosophical and pedagogical tenets that we want in our children's education. The driving is a pain but car pooling and school bus for the older kids is a wonderful thing. And I know it can foster dissonance with the local kids who go to the local school, but we get our kids to participate in extra curricular activities in the community and make sure our house is open for local kids to come and play so that these relationships can be encouraged. It can feel like rejection but if you've chosen a secular path for your family then this is what it takes to follow through.

farmchoice

you can explain that even though you knew quite well this day was coming you felt that your conscience was the most important thing.

that as you don't hold with the catholic church you chose not to have her christened. thereby effecting her choice of schools.

as a grown adult and a parent you knew this was coming so don't be crying the victim now, you made your bed.

I'm an atheist i hold the catholic church in very low esteem but i had my little fella christened for this very reason, its not fair, but its reality. i could have sent him to the newly opened non religious school but for the reasons you outlined in your post i chose not to.

you are more then entitled to your point of view and i admire you for sticking to your guns in what is unfortunately still a catholic country, but this is the price you pay for your convictions it and you knew it from the beginning.

madalig12

[/Quote]if you don't want your child indoctrinated into this religion then why would you send her to this school? [/QUOTE]

School...where people are taught subjects to help them get on in life
church....where people are taught about religion to help them cope with death.

Should be two different things altogether. They dont teach maths in church why should they teach religion in schools.

eviltwin

As the parent of a young child its a bug bear of mine. We are very lucky we got him into our local ET which is just up the road and we're really happy but we just got in by the skin of our teeth. A lot of other parents we're so lucky and have to send their kids to school elsewhere. I believe local schools should be for local kids, there should be no segregation on the basis of faith.

bpmurray

farmchoice wrote: »

you are more then entitled to your point of view and i admire you for sticking to your guns in what is unfortunately still a catholic country, but this is the price you pay for your convictions it and you knew it from the beginning.

Bollacks! The reality is that this is discrimination, something the UN has attacked Ireland for again and again. This stupidity won't change until such time as the government is sued in the ECHR.

Penny Tration

Surely you would have known she may not be accepted to a Catholic school, since she wasn't baptised?

That said, lots of the Catholic schools in my area have students of many different religions in them.

LeinsterDub

You should of just lied

baldbear

What's the harm in getting her baptised? No one really takes it seriously. It'll just make it easier.

eviltwin

baldbear wrote: »

What's the harm in getting her baptised? No one really takes it seriously. It'll just make it easier.

Its this kind of attitude that ensures nothing will change.

Sheldons Brain

The school has its standards, you can either comply with them or not, but if you decide not to do so you have no justification for whining about it. Just tell your daughter that you have decided to disassociate yourself from the local community.

Glinda

I don't mean to sound harsh, but if the school is oversubscribed, there will always be some children who don't get a place. There's no getting around it. It's hard when your child is the one who is left out, but if it wasn't your child it would be someone else's.

If it's a religious school, then they will give first preference to parish children. Other places give preference to kids who already have a sibling.

The real disgrace here is that there aren't enough state schools to take children who aren't affiliated to a religion.

But, even in places where there is an alternative school, the 'better' schools are often oversubscribed and have to allocate places based on criteria. People who are not given a place are terribly disappointed but seldom set out what criteria for choosing they would accept as fair where the school has to choose between one child and another for a place.

desertcircus

A school that refuses students based on their religious background deserves no state funding.

cruizer101

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

you have no justification for whining about it

Apart from the fact that the school is funded by the taxpayer which is you me and everyone so we should all be treated equally

Glinda wrote: »

People who are not given a place are terribly disappointed but seldom set out what criteria for choosing they would accept as fair where the school has to choose between one child and another for a place.

Distance from school and siblings, simples

skallywag

Am I missing the point here, i.e. where is it mentioned anywhere that the school was catholic and that the child was refused for not being a catholic? i.e. could just as easily have been a protestant school refusing a catholic?

pwurple

I don't know how I am going to explain to my four year old that she's "special" that she can't go to the same school where all of her neighbors and creche buddies are going to

Eh, what? My child will be starting school next september and doesn't give a monkeys where her neighbours and creche buddies are going. No explanation required. She'll go where we send her, end of. It's a school which isn't our preferred religion either, but it's the closest decent school, so we go along with it. I generally put religion to the very bottom of my list of educational priorities.. behind maths english PE, irish etc. All thsoe things are far more important. She'll learn that religion in school and we'll do our own thing outside.

The inconvenience for you is a big problem, which I completely understand, but please don't do the 'Poor ickle 4 year old' thing. Your 4 year old will see it as completely normal. No need for the hand-wringing on her behalf.

If this is the way you've chosen to do it, then organise yourself around the car journey (and honestly, it seems like only a tiny handful of children avoid a car trip to school these days anyway... so it's not going to child-abuse here to transport her in a car to school).

And of course your wife can work. What do you think everyone else does?

vicwatson

desertcircus wrote: »

A school that refuses students based on their religious background deserves no state funding.

And for me this is the whole point - if one is going to teach religion in taxpayer paid for schools then all religions and none should be taught in taxpayer paid for schools.

I cant see why this cannot happen within the next 3-5 years.

vicwatson

She'll learn that religion in school and we'll do our own thing outside

Wha'?

Orion

baldbear wrote: »

What's the harm in getting her baptised? No one really takes it seriously. It'll just make it easier.

Why should she have to? It's a state funded school. There is legislation coming which will repeal the section of the Equal Status Act which allows this discrimination to take place. Not before its time.

Orion

skallywag wrote: »

Am I missing the point here, i.e. where is it mentioned anywhere that the school was catholic and that the child was refused for not being a catholic? i.e. could just as easily have been a protestant school refusing a catholic?

Probably because nearly 90% of primary schools are under catholic patronage. CoI schools generally take anyone regardless of religion.

Glinda

So, which children should be left without places? This is the pointy end of the question which no-one ever seems to deal with. Almost everyone seems to agree that religion is out (even for religious schools) so what is an acceptable deciding factor when they have to choose between kids?

pwurple

vicwatson wrote: »

And for me this is the whole point - if one is going to teach religion in taxpayer paid for schools then all religions and none should be taught in taxpayer paid for schools.

The churches own the schools. The property they sit on was bought and paid for by whichever community wanted it. Maybe the govt could buy them out?

pwurple

Orion wrote: »

Probably because nearly 90% of primary schools are under catholic patronage. CoI schools generally take anyone regardless of religion.

Not so. Catholic schools generally take anyone regardless of religion unless over subscribed. Exactly the same policy as COI.

_Brian

You stuck to your principals in not having your child baptised into a faith.

This is a choice on your behalf.
But surely you knew there would be consequences for your decision.

We all make decisions and live with the consequences.

If you really wanted your child in this school them you should have made the choices in life that would facilitate that.

conorhal

desertcircus wrote: »

A school that refuses students based on their religious background deserves no state funding.

I don't see any suggestion that the OP was refused a place, only the suggestion that her child won't be going to the same school as her friends based on her parents preference for a non-denominational education. In other words, her choice.
There's a fierce bang of narcisistic entitlement off the OP and I find it odd that her 'unique and special snowflake' can only be unique and special in a context where everybody else has to conform to her views for her convienience. She want's her child to be different but when it comes down it actually making a choice that marks that difference she then complains it's descrimination?
Get up the yard!

mikom

baldbear wrote: »

What's the harm in getting her baptised? No one really takes it seriously. It'll just make it easier.

Put another one on the "books" for the feckers that excluded you......... No bloody way.
Some people have a back just made for a saddle.

average_runner

vicwatson wrote: »

And for me this is the whole point - if one is going to teach religion in taxpayer paid for schools then all religions and none should be taught in taxpayer paid for schools.

I cant see why this cannot happen within the next 3-5 years.

Then maybe the state should pay back the money to the churches that funded these schools for years

A_Sober_Paddy

pwurple wrote: »

The churches own the schools. The property they sit on was bought and paid for by whichever community wanted it. Maybe the govt could buy them out?

Well if the church owns all these properties, the state should remove them and take them for themselves...In punishment for the decades of a abuses the church has enforced on the people of this state

vicwatson

pwurple wrote: »

The churches own the schools. The property they sit on was bought and paid for by whichever community wanted it. Maybe the govt could buy them out?

My local school recently got an extension to their school, and a friends school was completely rebuilt - are you telling me that the taxpayer has now gifted these buildings to the Catholic Church, even though the taxpayer paid for them?

average_runner wrote: »

Then maybe the state should pay back the money to the churches that funded these schools for years

And vice versa, perhaps the Catholic Church should not be looking for state funding if they want Catholic Schools, let them fund themselves and see how many "Catholics" take them up in the year 2015. That'll learn them quick!

skallywag

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Well if the church owns all these properties, the state should remove them and take them for themselves...

Is that you Henry?

Magnate

_Brian wrote: »

You stuck to your principals in not having your child baptised into a faith.

... I can't tell if this was an intended pun or not.

A_Sober_Paddy

skallywag wrote: »

Is that you Henry?

What?

I'm of the believe that no religious group should own property, its a religion not a business, and its supposed to be done for the love blah blah stupid religious non sense the lot

vicwatson

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Well if the church owns all these properties, the state should remove them and take them for themselves...In punishment for the decades of a abuses the church has enforced on the people of this state

And why aren't they paying up 100% of the victims redress scheme - the fund of € 1.4 billion is being paid 50% by the taxpayer and 50% by the various Churches, why? Why aren't they paying 100% of this.

"Under a controversial 2002 indemnity agreement, 18 religious orders which ran care institutions pledged to contribute €128m in cash, property and counselling services towards redress costs for abuse survivors. However, they later agreed to contribute €352.6 million for victims of institutional abuse. So far they have paid less than a quarter of that."

It's wayyyy short of the €700 miliion they owe

Get the Pope to sell a few of their paintings.

cruizer101

average_runner wrote: »

Then maybe the state should pay back the money to the churches that funded these schools for years

One point regarding this is that the state did pay for these school throughout the years. Yes it wasn't through the government coffers it was through the churches but where do you think the church got its money from the people i.e. the state. Every joe soap soap was expected to pay up to the church as much as they were expected to pay their taxes, that was the hold the church held on the Irish state for years. So whether it was paid by the church or government at the end of the day it was the people of Ireland who paid. The people of Ireland have now changed and evolved their views and so should the schools for which they paid.

LeeMajors

positron wrote: »

And now I know how it feels like. It feels like someone punched my in my lower abdomen. It feels as if I am a primate covered in my own feces and a bunch of 'civilized high society' is looking down at us from their high power position.

It feels like they thinks my smart, intelligent and super compassionate four year old girl - who is everything I live for - is not up to their standards because her father (me) wanted to keep the simple values of honesty and integrity and respect (which is why I decided not to lie to a priest or a church).

Forgetting how I feel about it for a moment, come September, I don't know how I am going to explain to my four year old that she's "special" that she can't go to the same school where all of her neighbors and creche buddies are going to. She already knows this 'BIG' school where she was going to go as it's right next to her creche. It's literally 10 mins walk away from our house. Instead she will have to be taken a school far away in a car, every morning, which I think also puts an end to my wife's ambitions to go back to work for another while.

I can't believe in this discrimination is allowed in this day and age. Imagine what would happen if the local butchers or barber shop decided to prioritize their clients based on religion or hair colour!!

/Rant. Apparently I am an "untouchable". I am just gutted, that's all. :(

If you don't want your kid educated in a catholic school then don't try and enrole him/her in a catholic school.
Try one of those educate together schools where they apologise to people for trying to educate their kids about religious fundamentalism like we seen last week.

Whosthis

If she has no religion how has she been discriminated against on this basis? You chose not to have her baptised as you didn't want to indoctrinate her into the Catholic Church but now you expect her to be able to attend a Catholic school and claim discrimination when she cacan't. The mind boggles.

LeeMajors

vicwatson wrote: »

And why aren't they paying up 100% of the victims redress scheme - the fund of € 1.4 billion is being paid 50% by the taxpayer and 50% by the various Churches, why? Why aren't they paying 100% of this.

"Under a controversial 2002 indemnity agreement, 18 religious orders which ran care institutions pledged to contribute €128m in cash, property and counselling services towards redress costs for abuse survivors. However, they later agreed to contribute €352.6 million for victims of institutional abuse. So far they have paid less than a quarter of that."

Get the Pope to sell a few of their paintings.

Who put those children into the care of the Catholic run institutions?
Ask Bertie.

average_runner

vicwatson wrote: »

My local school recently got an extension to their school, and a friends school was completely rebuilt - are you telling me that the taxpayer has now gifted these buildings to the Catholic Church, even though the taxpayer paid for them?



And vice versa, perhaps the Catholic Church should not be looking for state funding if they want Catholic Schools, let them fund themselves and see how many "Catholics" take them up in the year 2015. That'll learn them quick!

Or maybe the church should take a step back and close the schools, its is their property

Eugene Norman

LeeMajors wrote: »

If you don't want your kid educated in a catholic school then don't try and enrole him/her in a catholic school.
Try one of those educate together schools where they apologise to people for trying to educate their kids about religious fundamentalism like we seen last week.

He feels all schools should be secular. I agree but...

We should take, as ordinary people, some hints from elites. When I lived in the UK I knew some posh people, self proclaimed socialists who opposed private school ( what they call public school) and yet had gone themselves or -- in honest moments -- admitted to trying to send their offspring to those schools. Argument was they were there and until the situation was reformed no point in being a martyr.

bjork

This thread is very dramatic

Have the school stated this is the sole reason she was refused?
Why did she think that was her school-who told her that?
How to explain why her friends/neighbours different: They're catholic and were not - prime learning opportunity
How far is far away? Have you checked all other faith schools in the area, if you are determined to send your atheist daughter to a faith school?

positron

Alright, I have calmed down a bit, I think. Rejection is hard, but oh well, it's only a school place, No biggie!

Thanks for all the thoughts and comments. Like a number of yous suggested this is clearly a repercussion of her not being baptised and I should have known this is going to happen and shouldn't be crying now. 100% true - and I knew this was coming up, but I was hoping against odds that this wouldn't happen. Hear me out.

I didn't grow up in Ireland. Where I grew up, a percentage of schools are run by religious bodies, but yet they are not allowed to discriminate by religion, and they are not allowed to teach religion as part of the curriculum (as far as I know). In fact, the very idea of a child or a person having to be in records as of a particular religion is still an alien notion to me. But I knew of it of course, how could you not living here in Ireland, and I am married to an Irish woman, who also knew all about this. And we were warned by the grand parents that this might get in the way of school admissions as well. So we knew full well about it. So, I did look into baptism to see what it takes. It turns out we don't actually know any preists as we don't go to church other than for weddings or funerals, and then it turns out I would have to lie to the Church that I would bring up the child as a Catholic (not sure if technically possible as I am not a Christian myself) but more importantly, I didn't want to lie or deceive a system that I know a lot of very good and very honest people trust and believes in. I just didn't want to abuse it. Anyway, so that's all history. The point is 'not baptising' was not as much a 'choice' that I made, it kinda turned out that way.

Just to clarify some of the questions raised in the thread - the school in question is the new massive St Marys school in Bryanstown in Drogheda. It was under construction back when we put her name down when she was just a few weeks old! They take in like 150 kids every year I think. We live 10 mins walking distance from school.

Anyway, my very simple point of view is that school / religion are two different things and shouldn't be brought together. Discriminating based on religion is and should be treated just as seriously as discriminating based on skin colour, race, background etc. and clearly I failed to realise how behind rest of the world (no offense meant) Ireland is when it comes to giving equal rights to all people. I am disappointed, but wiser.

Thanks again!

bjork

positron wrote: »

Alright, I have calmed down a bit, I think. Rejection is hard, but oh well, it's only a school place, No biggie!

Thanks for all the thoughts and comments. Like a number of yous suggested this is clearly a repercussion of her not being baptised and I should have known this is going to happen and shouldn't be crying now. 100% true - and I knew this was coming up, but I was hoping against odds that this wouldn't happen. Hear me out.

I didn't grow up in Ireland. Where I grew up, a percentage of schools are run by religious bodies, but yet they are not allowed to discriminate by religion, and they are not allowed to teach religion as part of the curriculum (as far as I know). In fact, the very idea of a child or a person having to be in records as of a particular religion is still an alien notion to me. But I knew of it of course, how could you not living here in Ireland, and I am married to an Irish woman, who also knew all about this. And we were warned by the grand parents that this might get in the way of school admissions as well. So we knew full well about it. So, I did look into baptism to see what it takes. It turns out we don't actually know any preists as we don't go to church other than for weddings or funerals, and then it turns out I would have to lie to the Church that I would bring up the child as a Catholic (not sure if technically possible as I am not a Christian myself) but more importantly, I didn't want to lie or deceive a system that I know a lot of very good and very honest people trust and believes in. I just didn't want to abuse it. Anyway, so that's all history. The point is 'not baptising' was not as much a 'choice' that I made, it kinda turned out that way.

Just to clarify some of the questions raised in the thread - the school in question is the new massive St Marys school in Bryanstown in Drogheda. It was under construction back when we put her name down when she was just a few weeks old! They take in like 150 kids every year I think. We live 10 mins walking distance from school.

Anyway, my very simple point of view is that school / religion are two different things and shouldn't be brought together. Discriminating based on religion is and should be treated just as seriously as discriminating based on skin colour, race, background etc. and clearly I failed to realise how behind rest of the world (no offense meant) Ireland is when it comes to giving equal rights to all people. I am disappointed, but wiser.

Thanks again!

If you live 10 minutes walking distance from that particular school, there are many other schools in that catchment area. Where were you planning on driving far away to, out of interest?

skallywag

OP, what makes you so sure that she was refused on the grounds of religion? Have you reason to believe that it was not simply because they were oversubscribed and that you were just unlucky?

mrbrianj

Emm..
A school is over subscribed - blame the Catholic Church
The school has enrolment policy - Blame the Catholic Church
The Catholic Church provided education before the foundation of the state when nobody else would - Blame the Catholic Church
The State did not build enough schools to match population changes and new development - Blame the Catholic Church
The State did not take charge of / or divest school patronage although asked to by the church - Blame the Catholic Church
Nobody gathered together and founded a school based on what you want - Blame the Catholic Church

Dont get me wrong the RC church has alot to answer for, but they are too easy a scapegoat, suits everybody to lay the blame at the Church door (government, Dept of Ed, planners, parents get an easy get out of jail card)

BTW the COI use the same type of policies as RC schools and have the same issues with kids not getting (check out the Wicklow forum)

eviltwin

skallywag wrote: »

OP, what makes you so sure that she was refused on the grounds of religion? Have you reason to believe that it was not simply because they were oversubscribed and that you were just unlucky?

In fairness if its a RCC school non religious kids are put to the bottom of the list so if there is any kind of demand for spaces a non catholic child is unable to get a place.

OP I can understand why you are pissed off. My local school is a two minute walk from my house, I can see it from my kitchen window. We aren't catholic so we had to send our child to an ET which is a car journey away. Yes its a pain to have to drive but he's there now and settled and personally I'm much happier with the ethos there and I feel we've made the right choice.

I hope you get sorted.

Moonbeam

positron wrote: »

And now I know how it feels like. It feels like someone punched my in my lower abdomen. It feels as if I am a primate covered in my own feces and a bunch of 'civilized high society' is looking down at us from their high power position.

It feels like they thinks my smart, intelligent and super compassionate four year old girl - who is everything I live for - is not up to their standards because her father (me) wanted to keep the simple values of honesty and integrity and respect (which is why I decided not to lie to a priest or a church).

Forgetting how I feel about it for a moment, come September, I don't know how I am going to explain to my four year old that she's "special" that she can't go to the same school where all of her neighbors and creche buddies are going to. She already knows this 'BIG' school where she was going to go as it's right next to her creche. It's literally 10 mins walk away from our house. Instead she will have to be taken a school far away in a car, every morning, which I think also puts an end to my wife's ambitions to go back to work for another while.

I can't believe in this discrimination is allowed in this day and age. Imagine what would happen if the local butchers or barber shop decided to prioritize their clients based on religion or hair colour!!

/Rant. Apparently I am an "untouchable". I am just gutted, that's all. :(

We also had major school place issues,we bought our house as near to the school as we could (7 minute walk)put her name down at 14 months and sent her to Naíonra in the school.
They go on a 1st come 1st served basis.
She didn't get a place and the nearest Gaelscoil that accepted her was in a different county and 12km away,I was pregnant and had a baby and a 2 year old. It was hell.
Did you read the schools enrollment policies?
Did they stick to them?
Where is she on the waiting list?

vicwatson

LeeMajors wrote: »

If you don't want your kid educated in a catholic school then don't try and enrole him/her in a catholic school.
Try one of those educate together schools where they apologise to people for trying to educate their kids about religious fundamentalism like we seen last week.

Grow up please.

LeeMajors wrote: »

Who put those children into the care of the Catholic run institutions?
Ask Bertie.

Oh so it's the taxpayers fault is it?

average_runner wrote: »

Or maybe the church should take a step back and close the schools, its is their property

So you don't know then whether these extension/new builds are now state property?

byhookorbycrook

"]In fairness if its a RCC school non religious kids are put to the bottom of the list so if there is any kind of demand for spaces a non catholic child is unable to get a place"
Untrue, it depends on the policy of the school. Our school is a Catholic school and we do not have religion as part of our entrance criteria.

positron

bjork wrote: »

If you live 10 minutes walking distance from that particular school, there are many other schools in that catchment area. Where were you planning on driving far away to, out of interest?

The Le Cheile Educate Together. It's not that far away, just 10 mins without traffic. I was reacting badly to the news, apologies!

Bob24

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

The school has its standards, you can either comply with them or not, but if you decide not to do so you have no justification for whining about it.

Can you remind us who is funding the school?

positron

skallywag wrote: »

OP, what makes you so sure that she was refused on the grounds of religion? Have you reason to believe that it was not simply because they were oversubscribed and that you were just unlucky?

The refusal letter states they were over-subscribed and based on the admissions policy. Which on their website states priority to local catholic children and for siblings of existing pupil.

We had applied pretty much as soon as she was born, so we would have been almost at the top of the pile if it was purely a first-come first-served basis. We know that isn't the case because a family friend has their little one accepted to the school, they didn't apply until like last year, but their first one already is a pupil at the school. So I guess it's hard to pin point why she didn't get it, but I would hazard a guess that she would have gotten it if she was baptized.