Can I be forced to work?

SusieBlue

I'll try to keep this as short and clear as possible. I've been in my current job two years, and I share my role with one other person. We are the only two in the company who are fully trained in this role, however there are 4-5 other people in different departments who are able to cover leave when necessary.

Myself and the other girl booked the same day off over 6 weeks ago. We approached management on the same day, requesting the day off, and made it quite clear that we both needed it, and were told it was no issue and someone from another department would cover.

Two weeks ago said manager handed in his notice, but my colleague and I double checked that our booked time off still stood and I was told it did.

Fast forward to today where upon hearing that we both have the same day off, my new manager (who isn't new to the company and had been in a more junior role the last few years) says absolutely no way can we both have it off, because we will be very busy and they can't spare someone from a different department to cover us.

I now have to work as I am more senior in the role than my colleague is.
I'm meant to be going to a wedding next week, I've dropped €150 on a dress, €70 on shoes, booked a hotel room and hair appointments etc. and now I'm being told I can't have the day off with only one weeks notice even though I requested this day off over 6 weeks ago.

I'm an exemplary employee, I haven't requested a day off since last July. In my two years working I haven't rang in sick once. I'm so furious and upset that I may have to miss an important family event when I had previously been told its no problem.

New manager is saying we should never have been grated the leave in the first place. We have no HR and he is the only manager, and is the most senior person in the company. The owners are always in and out but would have no interest in getting involved in an issue like this.

Can they force me to work or can I refuse? Any advice appreciated, thanks

davo10

Leave dates are at the discretion of your employer but they are required to take into account certain personal circumstances. Unfortunately going to a wedding may not be one if them and it may seem reasonable to refuse one of you leave as both of you will be off and there may not be cover available. Incidentally, in most companies, it's the one who is there longer who is entitled to get preference on account of length of service.

therecklessone

davo10 wrote: »

Leave dates are at the discretion of your employer but they are required to take into account certain personal circumstances. Unfortunately going to a wedding may not be one if them and it may seem reasonable to refuse one of you leave as both of you will be off and there may not be cover available. Incidentally, in most companies, it's the one who is there longer who is entitled to get preference on account of length of service.

Section 20 of the Organisation of Working Time Act states:

20.—(1) The times at which annual leave is granted to an employee shall be determined by his or her employer having regard to work requirements and subject—

(a) to the employer taking into account—

(i) the need for the employee to reconcile work and any family responsibilities,

(ii) the opportunities for rest and recreation available to the employee,

(b) to the employer having consulted the employee or the trade union (if any) of which he or she is a member, not later than 1 month before the day on which the annual leave or, as the case may be, the portion thereof concerned is due to commence, and

(c) to the leave being granted within the leave year to which it relates or, with the consent of the employee, within the 6 months thereafter.

I see subsection (1)(b) here as relevant, the OP was given notice of the leave having been approved, and while one could argue that it could be withdrawn more than a month before the day in question I can't see any reasonable excuse for it being refused now.

davo10

therecklessone wrote: »

Section 20 of the Organisation of Working Time Act states:



I see subsection (1)(b) here as relevant, the OP was given notice of the leave having been approved, and while one could argue that it could be withdrawn more than a month before the day in question I can't see any reasonable excuse for it being refused now.

I think that relates to the employer making the employee take annual leave on certain dates eg when the company is closing down for annual lholidays.

bpmurray

Tell your manager that it'#s unacceptable and that you're taking the day off. Insist that it had been agreed with his predecessor and that you're sorry he is unable to understand no. Go over his head to his manager, and to HR (if you have a HR department).

Sounds like a pretty incompetent manager.

davo10

bpmurray wrote: »

Tell your manager that it'#s unacceptable and that you're taking the day off. Insist that it had been agreed with his predecessor and that you're sorry he is unable to understand no. Go over his head to his manager, and to HR (if you have a HR department).

Sounds like a pretty incompetent manager.

Then OP would be AWOL. An incompetent manager would be one who would allow both to be off without cover.

Mrs OBumble

Tough call.

Your options are basically to say nothing and call in sick. Or to ask them to reimburse you for all the expenses you've incurred for nothing, and hope this makes them change their minds.


They will know you weren't sick, but won't be able to prove it. The relationship between you and your manager will become very difficult, and you will need to get a new job.

davo10

Terrace ticket?

SusieBlue

For what its worth, there have been 3-4 other instances over the last two years where both myself and my colleague needed the same leave and we were given it without issue, with someone from another department covering.

If I'm honest I think my new manager isn't coping under the pressure and is afraid of rocking the boat with the owners, which is something that wouldn't have bothered my old manager.

I like this job and was happy here until now. However, I think this is a serious injustice. I don't want to cause hassle but I think I'm going to have to look for a new job if this is how the place will be run. I'd understand if I gave no notice but I was definitively given the go ahead on two occasions and I'm going to be seriously out of pocket (not to mention in the bad books with my family) if he doesn't relent.

percy212

Try another conversation with the manager. Impress upon them how important this occasion is, and ask what they suggest to help find a solution to your problem. It is truly AMAZING how many people/bosses will assist when you ask them for their thoughts in a genuinely nice way.

_Brian

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Tough call.

Your options are basically to say nothing and call in sick. Or to ask them to reimburse you for all the expenses you've incurred for nothing, and hope this makes them change their minds.


They will know you weren't sick, but won't be able to prove it. The relationship between you and your manager will become very difficult, and you will need to get a new job.

I think ringing in sick is a risky move..
It will be obvious that you are not sick..
you'll have taken a bad situation and made it a whole lot worse by breaking your apparently good reputation with the company.

In a previous company where I worked I can think of two instances where employees were given warnings for calling in sick after being denied holiday requests.

I think negotiation is the way forward here.. and if nothing can be done at all I'd expect a lottery where at least you have a 50% chance of getting the leave, I see no reason that because you are senior that you have to loose the leave.

daheff

I'm assuming that you have the approval for the day off either in an email or some holiday system.

If so, I'd tell the boss that the holiday has already been approved by his predecessor and 'considerable expenses have been made or committed to' and that the company cannot now retract the day off, especially at such short notice.

I'd also make the point that there have been other instances where both employees in your department have been off together (this is precedent) and that you are not responsible for the work being covered in your absence (that's your bosses job not yours).

If you are already thinking that you will be looking for a new job then to be honest, I'd tell him to take a hike if he keeps trying to say no.

Any chance you can go over his head and make a complaint about it?

ballyargus

Things like this really get on my goat. This is an important family situation - special situations like this with family should be cherished and should ALWAYS trump your job.

Not to be morbid but there'll be all too many family gatherings of sadness in future.

Make your point clear and go to the wedding. You'll be glad of it in ten years when you've long forgotten that ar$ewipe

daheff

daheff wrote: »

I'm assuming that you have the approval for the day off either in an email or some holiday system.

If so, I'd tell the boss that the holiday has already been approved by his predecessor and 'considerable expenses have been made or committed to' and that the company cannot now retract the day off, especially at such short notice.

I'd also make the point that there have been other instances where both employees in your department have been off together (this is precedent) and that you are not responsible for the work being covered in your absence (that's your bosses job not yours).

If you are already thinking that you will be looking for a new job then to be honest, I'd tell him to take a hike if he keeps trying to say no.

Any chance you can go over his head and make a complaint about it?

To be honest this is the approach I'd take
your annual leave was granted, no particular work emergency has come up, and you're taking it as discussed with your previous manager

percy212

Try talking to your supervisor again before going to HR. Say something like "I don't want to make your life difficult, but unless I get this day off, my life is going to become very difficult very quickly. I am in a very tight spot here. Can we please try to find a way to make this work for both of us?".

If that doesn't work, off you go to HR!

If you plan on leaving this job anyway, then to hell with negotiation and protocol and catch a cold...

she said there is no hr

percy212

Whoops. I missed that. Sorry. In that case, try the supervisor nicely nicely approach. In case of failure, push emergency sick day button.

Sunny Dayz

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I now have to work as I am more senior in the role than my colleague is.

Anywhere I have worked before - the more senior and long standing employees get preference in terms of holidays, lunch breaks etc

miamee

percy212 wrote: »

Try talking to your supervisor again before going to HR. Say something like "I don't want to make your life difficult, but unless I get this day off, my life is going to become very difficult very quickly. I am in a very tight spot here. Can we please try to find a way to make this work for both of us?".

If that doesn't work, off you go to HR!

If you plan on leaving this job anyway, then to hell with negotiation and protocol and catch a cold...

The only potential problem I can see with this is if you make enough of a problem for the manager and he/she decides to relent and give you the day off - your colleague may find her day off being cancelled instead.

If this is likely, I'd have a word with her so that she is forewarned and ready to stand her ground with the manager. I'm assuming that you get along with her and would prefer for her to also have the day off of course

runawaybishop

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I'll try to keep this as short and clear as possible. I've been in my current job two years, and I share my role with one other person. We are the only two in the company who are fully trained in this role, however there are 4-5 other people in different departments who are able to cover leave when necessary.

Myself and the other girl booked the same day off over 6 weeks ago. We approached management on the same day, requesting the day off, and made it quite clear that we both needed it, and were told it was no issue and someone from another department would cover.

Two weeks ago said manager handed in his notice, but my colleague and I double checked that our booked time off still stood and I was told it did.

Fast forward to today where upon hearing that we both have the same day off, my new manager (who isn't new to the company and had been in a more junior role the last few years) says absolutely no way can we both have it off, because we will be very busy and they can't spare someone from a different department to cover us.

I now have to work as I am more senior in the role than my colleague is.
I'm meant to be going to a wedding next week, I've dropped €150 on a dress, €70 on shoes, booked a hotel room and hair appointments etc. and now I'm being told I can't have the day off with only one weeks notice even though I requested this day off over 6 weeks ago.

I'm an exemplary employee, I haven't requested a day off since last July. In my two years working I haven't rang in sick once. I'm so furious and upset that I may have to miss an important family event when I had previously been told its no problem.

New manager is saying we should never have been grated the leave in the first place. We have no HR and he is the only manager, and is the most senior person in the company. The owners are always in and out but would have no interest in getting involved in an issue like this.

Can they force me to work or can I refuse? Any advice appreciated, thanks

One week notice to cancel leave approved 30+ days ago is not sufficient and you can insist on taking your leave.

percy212 wrote: »

In case of failure, push emergency sick day button.

Welcome to unemploymentville -population: the OP.

ainecaine

I would take the week off now and get a doctor's Cert. If you have a doctor's cert they haven't a leg to stand on. You surely are able to take sick days when your doctor has deemed it necessary.

runawaybishop

ainecaine wrote: »

I would take the week off now and get a doctor's Cert. If you have a doctor's cert they haven't a leg to stand on. You surely are able to take sick days when your doctor has deemed it necessary.

No need for duplicity- OP is entitled to take the time off. Management wont believe for a second they are sick and that will reflect far worse than if they insist on taking the leave they requested. If it comes to light that they were attending a wedding they will be dismissed.

davo10

ainecaine wrote: »

I would take the week off now and get a doctor's Cert. If you have a doctor's cert they haven't a leg to stand on. You surely are able to take sick days when your doctor has deemed it necessary.

This is absolutely incorrect. Your employer may require you to show a doctors cert but that alone does not entitle you to time off work, it only informs as to why you are off.

blindsider

Not so sure re this Davo10.

A doctor's cert means that you should not be on the premises - you're not covered by the employer's insurance. (Not looking for an argument BTW)


OP- some good advice here already - go to new boss. Explain NICELY that you already have the leave booked and you'll do everything to ensure that the job is covered for the day. Say you'll talk to the substitute employee to ensure they're fully briefed - ring in during the day to ensure they're alright etc. (Split this between you and your colleague.)

BUT be FIRM - the day is booked - family occasion - I'm taking it. I'm being reasonable - it's been done before - and please train someone else up to cover us!

End of conversation.

Enjoy wedding!

(If you can, role-play this scenario with someone beforehand - it makes a big difference.)

Doom

Tell the manager you are part of the immediate family and it is too late to cancel.
I would push the idea that it has already been approved... As a manger its now their problem, not yours.
I think the manager would find it difficult and unprofessional to discipline you for this.

SusieBlue

After much grovelling earlier in the week, my manager reluctantly agreed to "see what he could do" about me having the day off and said he'd get back to me.

I feel I should emphasize, my role isn't a specific specialty that I was purposefully hired for, it just so happened to be the department I was put into when I started. Anyone with minimum training can do it. Previous to this job, I had little to no experience in this specific field.

Under normal circumstances, the more senior staff would get priority for time off but given how busy they anticipate it'll be, they would rather I work.

I'm also very good friends with my colleague and am worried as a PP said that I'll be granted my day off at her expense, and she also really needs the day off as she's flying to the UK for a weekend away with her boyfriend. Flights, accommodation etc are all paid for so she'll lose out on money too.

I've pushed for a final answer but he's saying he won't know until Thursday whether there'll be someone available to cover me. The wedding is on Friday so its really going to be in the 11th hour.

I should have just taken my family's advice and lied and said I was in the wedding party!

Thanks for all the very helpful advice. Fingers crossed a miracle happens.

runawaybishop

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I should have just taken my family's advice and lied and said I was in the wedding party!

If it comes out that you are not it will just reflect badly on you. You don't need to make any excuses, you have booked your holidays and had them approved. It is now too late for your employer to cancel them. Be polite, be respectful but be forceful -you are taking your entitled holidays and that's the end of it as far as you are concerned.

nibtrix

blindsider wrote: »

A doctor's cert means that you should not be on the premises - you're not covered by the employer's insurance. (Not looking for an argument BTW)

Do you have any links to information on this? Not arguing, just asking as I never heard it before.

I recently had a doctor's cert for a week and worked every day as I had no-one to cover for me. Surely if that meant I wouldn't be covered by the employer's insurance then both the doctor and my employer should have mentioned this?

griffin100

nibtrix wrote: »

Do you have any links to information on this? Not arguing, just asking as I never heard it before.

I recently had a doctor's cert for a week and worked every day as I had no-one to cover for me. Surely if that meant I wouldn't be covered by the employer's insurance then both the doctor and my employer should have mentioned this?

If you have a doctors cert it will say that in his / her opinion you are unfit for work until a specified time. You can come back to work before that time with the agreement of your employer. For minor illnesses that works fine, e.g. when off with the flu. However if someone were coming back to work after a serious or long term illness and wanted to come back before a sick cert expired, or if their illness was affected by their job (e.g. bad back and lots of heavy lifting), then an employer would be better off declining the offer to return to work early or else asking the employee to get a fit for work note from a doctor which overrides the sick note.

There are no insurance coverage issues in this at all. Just to note with respect to insurance, usually employers insure themselves against being sued by their employees (employers liability insurance) or they insure themselves and indemnify the employee against being sued by a third party due to the actions of an employee in the course of their work (public liability / professional indemnity).

In general terms allowing persons certified as unfit for work could become an issue for the employer if the employee concerned decides to sue for whatever reason and uses the fact that they were working when certified as unfit for work as one of the contributing factors to their loss / damage.