The demise of Cork Airport

18MonthsaSlave

http://www.independent.ie/business/more-than-a-million-fliers-bypass-120m-cork-airport-30975357.html

It reads like Ralph Riegel let Ryanair do most of the groundwork writing this article but one must ask why is the airport with the greatest catchment area outside of Dublin and Belfast doing so badly.
It appears that the debt for the terminal was attached to the airport by design to prevent interested parties(any party, not just Ryanair) from ever buying it and running it on a sound commercial footing.

I'd happily fly out of it if only there was somewhere I wanted to go served by the airport.

Idbatterim

if people are bypassing it for Dublin or Shannon, currently cork get nothing out of it, would they not be better trying to get a carrier to reinstate the dublin route, something is a lot better than nothing, have the charges down at a few euro or free and make money on car parking, retail, advertising etc? Or is it illegal to do this on one route only or is it ok as any carrier can compete? At the moment, with no direct flight to Dublin, cork airport is losing out and so are the DAA, as people will use heathrow as a hub, when dublin would do them for a lot of the routes that heathrow serves and it would keep more money in the country...

kub

There are 2 Fianna Fail party members mentioned in that article, the way they go on sickens me, it was a transport minister from that organisation that promised that when the Taj Mahal was completed that it would be debt free.

The other thing that i have to wonder about is how factual are Shannons passenger numbers? Do they include American troops as they rest in Shannon enroute to/ from US. Do the figures include diversions? With the longest South Westerly facing runway in this country, Shannon benefits from diversions in stormy weather.
Not so long ago there were so many diversions, that Shannon could not cope with anymore as EI and RYR flights were been diverted away from Dublin.

highlydebased

kub wrote: »

The other thing that i have to wonder about is how factual are Shannons passenger numbers? Do they include American troops as they rest in Shannon enroute to/ from US. Do the figures include diversions? With the longest South Westerly facing runway in this country, Shannon benefits from diversions in stormy weather.
Not so long ago there were so many diversions, that Shannon could not cope with anymore as EI and RYR flights were been diverted away from Dublin.

If pax from diverted flights are offloaded at SNN and onto buses say, then yes they are included. But realistically you'd hardly be talking more than 2k pax a year.

Troop traffic is included under transit, 103,539 last year. A small percentage of that includes UK-SNN-USA transits also

meathstevie

There's hardly any point flying from Cork to Dublin since there's a decent motorway link. Might have a cracking future as a personnel transfer hub and heliport though if those oil deposits of the Southwest are going to be all they're cracked up to be.

brettmirl

Four of the airlines in that article folded though, so all airports lost them, not just Cork.
British European vanished in 1974???

ngcxt6

Cork is dead handy. For me in Kilkenny it's only a 2 hour drive, similar to Dublin airport.
Parking is cheaper and closer to the terminal in Cork, and it's so hassle free. You literally get out of your car walk into the terminal and can be at your gate in less than 15 minutes.

Often get cheaper prices too compared to dublin

PaulKK

ngcxt6 wrote: »

Cork is dead handy. For me in Kilkenny it's only a 2 hour drive, similar to Dublin airport.
Parking is cheaper and closer to the terminal in Cork, and it's so hassle free. You literally get out of your car walk into the terminal and can be at your gate in less than 15 minutes.

Often get cheaper prices too compared to dublin

Can't agree with this. While I don't mind flying out of Cork at all, Dublin airport is only 80 mins max from Kilkenny city. It's also entirely motorway to get there.

I like the convenience of Cork but in my experience parking is more expensive, facilities are not great and flights are usually more expensive. Coupled with it taking a fair bit longer to get there I usually prefer flying from Dublin. Its easier to get to, and cheaper to park from my experience.

It also has a far better selection of flights and facilities.

L1011

brettmirl wrote: »

British European vanished in 1974???

British European = Flybe.

The old one was BEA, never officially expanded.

coylemj

brettmirl wrote: »

British European vanished in 1974???

In 1974 British European Airways (BEA) and the British Overseas Air Corporation (BOAC) merged to form British Airways.

BOAC was intercontinental so would have operated from the old Terminal 3 when Heathrow had just three terminals.

Tenger

The local politicians say that "sometime must be done"
But its hadly the fault of the airport planning when the locals don't use their own airport.

But Cork Airport faces a 'Catch 22' scenario - its owner, Dublin Airport, has actually benefited at its expense with Munster-based passengers now increasingly opting for it thanks to better route choices, frequency and often price.
For instance, a recent UCC society's Scottish trip was organised with Ryanair via Dublin rather than Cork.
It is a similar story with religious pilgrimages from Cork dioceses which often opt for Dublin over the local facility due to charter price and availability.


Its have been said for many years that we have too many airports for such a small island. DUB has always been safe in its top spot. But either SNN/ORK was always going to lose out for the next spot. Its the nature of the business, someone has to lose out

Zonda999

A more competitive Cork has potential I think (I hope so, seeing I'm a Cork man after all!) but lets be brutally honest here, Ireland (The Republic) has space for one reasonable sized airport after Dublin. Where currently exists Cork, Kerry and Shannon, there should be one airport with a runway the length of Shannon. Then, aside from the viability for small transatlantic operations, as at Shannon presently, there be the scope for a lot more short haul traffic Such an airport could manage 5 - 6 million passengers per annum in the current climate, taking into account Cork, Shannon, Kerry's current numbers and increased possibility for attracting back passengers currently using Dublin

kub

I have to wonder what the implications would be for the figures at Cork airport now if the motorway from Cork to Limerick was actually operational now. I think Shannon's marketing people would be very active down south.

KCAccidental

kub wrote: »

I have to wonder what the implications would be for the figures at Cork airport now if the motorway from Cork to Limerick was actually operational now. I think Shannon's marketing people would be very active down south.

they already are. Ads on radio, billboards and ads on buses.

vkid

KCAccidental wrote: »

they already are. Ads on radio, billboards and ads on buses.

Cork were very active in the midwest when lhr was pulled from Shannon. Billboards and radio ads. Swings and roundabouts on that score imo

kub

vkid wrote: »

Cork were very active in the midwest when lhr was pulled from Shannon. Billboards and radio ads. Swings and roundabouts on that score imo

Was it Aer Lingus or Cork Airport that were advertising?

vkid

kub wrote: »

Was it Aer Lingus or Cork Airport that were advertising?

Pretty sure it was Cork Airport. A lot of overlap in the customer base of both airports, and Knock/Shannon also..so its to be expected from any of them.

BowWow

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/subsidy-urged-for-cork-to-dublin-flights-311911.html

SpaceTime

I am just baffled with the posts on some other forum which are basically implying that Cork Airport is unnecessary and should be closed down in favour of Shannon.

If you did that, you might as well just close Cork.

This Government are clearly total idiots. Cork is a huge centre of IT and Pharma investment and it absolutely needs international connectivity directly from Cork.
If you want to see a shrinking contribution to GDP and massive job losses, ignore this Cork airport problem and let it flounder and lose more flights and make the city as unattractive as possible.

The most important thing is that we protect Shannon at all costs because that's where all the powerful TDs must be connected to.

Bear in mind that 55,405 of Shannon's passengers in 2014 were US troops being compelled to use it. That peaked at 341,000 in 2005.

I also think Ryanair's more of a problem than a solution here. It has bullied a lot of airlines off routes and then dumped the routes itself when it takes over. I don't even understand the logic of that as all it does is make airports unviable and reduce regional connectivity.

Cork needs a diversity of airlines, it's massively over-dependent on Aer Lingus and Ryanair and I honestly think that other airlines are probably afraid to go head-to-head with Ryanair. Is there some way Cork could grant route exclusivity for a while on certain routes to prevent that kind of thing in the future?

Competing with SNN and Dublin is one thing, but having a super-agressive airline that just pushes everyone else out and then shuts down the same routes makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

It just reminds me of the way supermarkets treat suppliers - squeeze, squeeze and squeeze until it becomes unsustainable.

I just think we need to be very careful that we don't get into a death-spiral situation where Cork and Shannon are basically being played off each other by budget carriers to the point that they're effectively subsidising their operations.

Both Cork and Shannon need to 'box clever' or they're both facing intermittent slumps in passenger numbers like this.

Cork also needs to urgently improve its marketing efforts both at home (nationally) and abroad. I see very little being done to promote it as a gateway airport. It's a big regional hub potentially, and it's a lot more than just Cork's local airport.

I'd also note that Cork Airport was at its peak when it had a greater diversity of airlines. It needs to get back to that again by attracting more in and mitigating somehow against the risk that a certain large budget carrier will just duplicate their routes and cause them to become unviable.

Fabio

Dead right, great points.

Cookiemunster

Cork doesn't need an airport when Dublin is 2 1/2 hrs away by motorway. Just as Limerick doesn't need Shannon as it's even closer to Dublin. They idea that all these companies would pull out if they had to travel to DUB is complete BS no matter what is said.
If that was the case then Galway would be a wasteland. Instead with no local access to an international airport it's booming with US multinationals.

SpaceTime

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Cork doesn't need an airport when Dublin is 2 1/2 hrs away by motorway. Just as Limerick doesn't need Shannon as it's even closer to Dublin. They idea that all these companies would pull out if they had to travel to DUB is complete BS no matter what is said.
If that was the case then Galway would be a wasteland. Instead with no local access to an international airport it's booming with US multinationals.

You clearly have never spoken to a manager of a multinational or someone making investment decisions.
Access to rapid air freight is also a major consideration.

It would be highly unusual for a city the size of Cork not to have an airport and Galway's in a strange position due to Knock (there because of intense local lobbying) and Shannon (there for historical reasons due to flying boats not proximity to any logical centre of population). At least Cork Airport is actually convenient to something

Ideally Knock should be in Galway City. It was an anti-urban decision that has probably damaged Galway for decades.

Shannon can quite reasonably serve Limerick and Galway as it's within 90 min of Galway City and neither of those cities are anywhere near as big as Cork. It's catchment is larger than Limerick and Galway combined.

Dublin Airport is a 3 hour + motorway trip from Cork realistically unless you never go to the bathroom and break the speed limit and you assume DUB is actually in Tallaght and not the other side of the M50.

You're talking about a situation where a business trip that can be completed in 1 day would suddenly take 2. That's a huge change in attractivity.

Also Cork Airport without any incentives or captive passengers being forced to use it by the US government, without transatlantic preclearing, without the legacy of stopovers and all the powerful lobbying is STILL significantly busier than Shannon.

Outkast_IRE

SpaceTime wrote: »

You clearly have never spoken to a manager of a multinational or someone making investment decisions.
Access to rapid air freight is also a major consideration.

It would be highly unusual for a city the size of Cork not to have an airport and Galway's in a strange position due to Knock (there because of intense local lobbying) and Shannon (there for historical reasons due to flying boats not proximity to any logical centre of population). At least Cork Airport is actually convenient to something

Ideally Knock should be in Galway City. It was an anti-urban decision that has probably damaged Galway for decades.

Shannon can quite reasonably serve Limerick and Galway as it's within 90 min of Galway City and neither of those cities are anywhere near as big as Cork. It's catchment is larger than Limerick and Galway combined.

Dublin Airport is a 3 hour + motorway trip from Cork realistically unless you never go to the bathroom and break the speed limit and you assume DUB is actually in Tallaght and not the other side of the M50.

You're talking about a situation where a business trip that can be completed in 1 day would suddenly take 2. That's a huge change in attractivity.

Also Cork Airport without any incentives or captive passengers being forced to use it by the US government, without transatlantic precleaning, without the legacy of stopovers and all the powerful lobbying is STILL significantly busier than Shannon.

Quite right, almost every pharmaceutical or manufacturing site in cork, sends staff abroad constantly for training or site audits etc. If all of a sudden these staff needed to travel an extra day it makes a difference to costs immediately.

Cookiemunster

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Quite right, almost every pharmaceutical or manufacturing site in cork, sends staff abroad constantly for training or site audits etc. If all of a sudden these staff needed to travel an extra day it makes a difference to costs immediately.

Dublin is not an extra day away. I work in Shannon and our company regularly send people to DUB when travelling abroad. You can get anywhere on the planet from DUB, including 12 direct destinations in the US, without having to transit through LHR.

Snow Leopard

I think the underlying problem for SNN and ORK is that both terminals were built in a different era, and are now too large and too cost-intensive to ever be fully sustainable as independent, standalone entities. This is why ORK will have to remain under DAA control and why SNN has been merged with Shannon Development.

Ideally, both airports should be operating facilities that are 40-50% smaller than they currently are. They need to be ran as low-cost facilities, and not shiny, oversized, and overstaffed status symbols.

Smaller terminal = less staff, less energy-intensive, less maintenance, less servicing = lower cost base = lower landing charges for airlines = sustainable business.

Unfortunately, it is very difficult (and costly) to downsize airport infrastructure once it has been built. Changes often require entire systems to be re-designed and re-tested, and in most cases, this simply isn't practical. I predict difficult times ahead for both airports.

Outkast_IRE

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Dublin is not an extra day away. I work in Shannon and our company regularly send people to DUB when travelling abroad. You can get anywhere on the planet from DUB, including 12 direct destinations in the US, without having to transit through LHR.

Not a day away ? It is an extra days travel for staff lets say it takes 3 hours to get there from Cork, which is a fair amount of time. You need to arrive for the flight a few hours before hand which means whatever your departure time you probably need to leave cork 5 hours beforehand to get there safely. They must also do similar on the return leg.

Do you really think anybody wants to be doing this type of travelling? Almost everyone i discussed this with has stated that they would be willing to pay much more for the flight from cork as it ultimately means less driving, less stress, far more convienient.

Cookiemunster

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Not a day away ? It is an extra days travel for staff lets say it takes 3 hours to get there from Cork, which is a fair amount of time. You need to arrive for the flight a few hours before hand which means whatever your departure time you probably need to leave cork 5 hours beforehand to get there safely. They must also do similar on the return leg.

Do you really think anybody wants to be doing this type of travelling? Almost everyone i discussed this with has stated that they would be willing to pay much more for the flight from cork as it ultimately means less driving, less stress, far more convienient.

As I already stated, the company I work for does it. We're 3 miles from SNN. Quite often it simply works out better to fly from DUB.

Dublinflyer

SpaceTime wrote: »

I just think we need to be very careful that we don't get into a death-spiral situation where Cork and Shannon are basically being played off each other by budget carriers to the point that they're effectively subsidizing their operations.
.

I completely agree with all your points except this one. I actually think we are already in that situation. SNN also has an unfair advantage in that it was given a clean slate financially so it can afford the lower costs and charges to the airlines. It has pre-clearance as well. Unless something changes I can't see cork winning this fight and it could potentially go the way of Galway. I hope i am wrong as I do think it would be a disaster if it was to close. As one poster said they need to get a good air link to Dublin who code-shares with some of the TA airlines.

Idbatterim

Idbatterim wrote: »

if people are bypassing it for Dublin or Shannon, currently cork get nothing out of it, would they not be better trying to get a carrier to reinstate the dublin route, something is a lot better than nothing, have the charges down at a few euro or free and make money on car parking, retail, advertising etc? Or is it illegal to do this on one route only or is it ok as any carrier can compete? At the moment, with no direct flight to Dublin, cork airport is losing out and so are the DAA, as people will use heathrow as a hub, when dublin would do them for a lot of the routes that heathrow serves and it would keep more money in the country...

Fly Cork to Dublin? Are you mad, I did that a few years back and never again.
By the time I get to the airport, park, get through security (even domestic) get on plane, taxi, fly, land, disembark and get from Dublin airport to city took far longer than it takes to drive/train it now.

Before people go on about the cost of driving, factor in the cost of taxis and/or parking to/from airport.

Snow Leopard

Dublinflyer wrote: »

I completely agree with all your points except this one. I actually think we are already in that situation. SNN also has an unfair advantage in that it was given a clean slate financially so it can afford the lower costs and charges to the airlines.

An advantage, yes; but an unfair advantage? Not so much. The highly-profitable ARI business was founded and based in SNN up until the time of separation, and arguably, should have remained with SNN after separation.

The DAA actually got themselves a good deal by retaining SNN's debt in return for the ARI business.

IRLConor

Deleted User wrote: »

Fly Cork to Dublin? Are you mad, I did that a few years back and never again.
By the time I get to the airport, park, get through security (even domestic) get on plane, taxi, fly, land, disembark and get from Dublin airport to city took far longer than it takes to drive/train it now.

Before people go on about the cost of driving, factor in the cost of taxis and/or parking to/from airport.

Flying from Cork to Dublin just to get to Dublin is a waste of time as you've said. Flying from Cork to Dublin to connect somewhere might not be. With the right layover time you could be faster flying ORK-DUB-<somewhere> rather than driving to Dublin for the DUB-<somewhere> leg.

Then again if running a connecting flight to feed Dublin from Cork was profitable, it would probably be running already.

Idbatterim

Flying from Cork to Dublin just to get to Dublin is a waste of time as you've said. Flying from Cork to Dublin to connect somewhere might not be. With the right layover time you could be faster flying ORK-DUB-<somewhere> rather than driving to Dublin for the DUB-<somewhere> leg.

exactly flying from Cork to Dublin makes no sense to me now, unless you are transferring via Dublin...

Subsidy urged for Cork to Dublin flights
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...ts-311911.html

this is win, win. Dublin and Cork get more passengers, business stays in Ireland. The bigger a hub Dublin becomes, the less and less need there will be to have to connect via another airport, reducing the importance of Heathrow etc, although the importance of this is overstated in my opinion and others as per the IAG takeover thread. IAG could even say look, we will reinstate the Cork to Dublin route twice per day and cut two flights from Cork to Heathrow, just as an example. I think I read there are four daily flights between Cork and Heathrow...

Then again if running a connecting flight to feed Dublin from Cork was profitable, it would probably be running already.

not necessarily, there are simply more profitable routes for the airlines I assume. The road network now has pros and cons for Dublin airport, but definite cons for Cork airport...

beer enigma

Idbatterim wrote: »

exactly flying from Cork to Dublin makes no sense to me now, unless you are transferring via Dublin...



this is win, win. Dublin and Cork get more passengers, business stays in Ireland. The bigger a hub Dublin becomes, the less and less need there will be to have to connect via another airport, reducing the importance of Heathrow etc, although the importance of this is overstated in my opinion and others as per the IAG takeover thread. IAG could even say look, we will reinstate the Cork to Dublin route twice per day and cut two flights from Cork to Heathrow, just as an example. I think I read there are four daily flights between Cork and Heathrow...

not necessarily, there are simply more profitable routes for the airlines I assume. The road network now has pros and cons for Dublin airport, but definite cons for Cork airport...

Probably a mix of both - I used to fly Cork - Dub 2 or 3 times a week but when the flights stopped I started driving. If you time it right then its only about 2hr 40mins & to be honest taking cost into account, driving works out cheaper. If they re-introduced the flights I'd probably stay driving.

Even by cork's own admission, the opening of the road network was a major blow to them, this from their 2009 report:

"Domestic air traffic to and from Dublin fell by 24% to 336,000 passengers as a result of improvements in road and rail transport links between Ireland’s two largest city regions. "

SpaceTime

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fly Cork to Dublin? Are you mad, I did that a few years back and never again.
By the time I get to the airport, park, get through security (even domestic) get on plane, taxi, fly, land, disembark and get from Dublin airport to city took far longer than it takes to drive/train it now.

Before people go on about the cost of driving, factor in the cost of taxis and/or parking to/from airport.

Ironically, it's actually far,far faster to fly through a UK airport than Dublin because UK airports treat Irish traffic as domestic where as Dublin has no domestic gate!

I remember having to queue with my passport on a Cork - Dublin flight a few years ago to get "in" to Dublin.

Many Cork people were delighted that DAA had recognised the people's republic as an independent state. Although, mostly it was just stupid and infuriating bureaucracy.

I find it a bit ridiculous that I don't have to show a passport on landing in LHR from Ireland yet I do at every Irish airport on landing from the UK.
Such a one-sided arrangement that leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. However, that's another thread.

The reality is on an Irish to LHR flight I can be on the Heathrow express without any fuss at all in about 10 mins Max.
If a Cork Dublin fight still existed, I'd be ludicrously held up by immigration!!

Irish Steve

Dublin Cork and Shannon are all suffering from the semi state legacy, where things like profit, customer service, efficiency and similar words were all deemed as not a high priority by the people that were parachuted in to the management structure by whichever political party was in power, usually as a reward for services to the party, and if they were to be built today, there is no doubt that the terminal sizes would be nothing like they are now.

Cork would never be approved as an airport site because of the weather issues, and Shannon would never get a runway the size that it is in a new incarnation, and both of those factors, and the excesses of previous managements ( and inappropriate political interference) have left both airports with legacy costs that are significant and out of balance with their earning potential.

Then there were the problems caused by restrictive practices and overmanning that are well documented and still being fought for by some of the more luddite union representatives who have not recognised that the semi state gravy train has well and truly departed, and I'm not talking here about Aer Lingus, but the airport operators.

And Yes, Ryanair's race to the bottom on costs has also put serious pressure on to all of the airports, and there have been some predatory pricing structures used to drive competition out.before then applying the nuclear option in an attempt to drive the costs even lower.

The harsh reality is that some of the problems are not of the airport's making, the issues with things like security are directly attributable to people like Bin Laden, and there is no doubt that the whole process of getting through security and on to a flight is a significant pain now compared to a few years ago, and it has diminished the pleasure and simplicity of flying, and added to the total time for pretty much every journey, even internal flights, and added significantly to the costs that the airport operators have to bear.

The points earlier about the supposed advantage of flying Cork or Shannon to Dublin are however valid. The total time and cost to fly to Dublin compared to driving to Dublin if you are not then flying onward to another destination is a very real issue, the improvements in the road journey times to and from Dublin have made a difference, and there's no getting away from the issues of the very high cost of airport parking, but that's partly down to the airport operators not being able to manage their income streams, and if the airlines (led by Ryanair) won't pay the economic cost of providing ALL the services that are provided, the airport operator has to find other way to recover those costs.

We've all seen what's happened to places like Galway, a few years ago, there were significant numbers of short haul flights, but changing times, easier access to Dublin and a performance limiting runway have brought about the worst case scenario, Galway is now no longer even open, let alone served by commercial operators.

We've seen any number of attempts to make a Shannon Dublin service viable, and the same with Cork, a number of operators have tried and failed to make a viable operation, but they have not survived, despite the crocodile tears of the politicians who keep telling us that "the service is essential". Sorry, but the reality is that when the services are there, they are not used to the degree necessary to sustain them, and airlines are not about making a loss to keep politicians happy, that only happened in the days when Aer Lingus was state owned, and could be told what to do. Now, the politicians can shout and roar as much as they like, and the likes of Ryanair and others will take no notice at all of them, as they are not accountable to them, they have obligations to their shareholders that are a higher priority than listening to a vote seeking gombeen from the back of nowhere who knows little or nothing about the airline business.

For Cork to thrive,it has to be offering an overall package to both business and leisure users that make it attractive. That's down to routes, timings and the overall package for tourism, in terms of access to the facilities, and the pricing, among other factors, and if they are not right, then the intended audience will choose other locations.

Cork faces some significant challenges, partly due to poor decisions about what was really needed there, and those decisions had costs implications, which cannot be ignored. Dealing with them is going to take some serious dedication and application by the management and staff at Cork, and some much wider community support from the Cork area to encourage airline operators to operate services to and from Cork that will attact business.

0lddog

Best of luck to them ! ....... they ( CSA ) could do with a break

( sorry not exactly on topic, hope it will cheer an Orkonian or two )

Stinicker

0lddog wrote: »

Best of luck to them ! ....... they ( CSA ) could do with a break

( sorry not exactly on topic, hope it will cheer an Orkonian or two )

I wonder if we can expect Ryanair to launch a daily flight to Prague for €9.99 each way to kill off CSA and then once CSA pullout for Ryanair to cut the route just like they did to Cork in 2012 when Ryanair blew what was a very productive series of WizzAir routes out of the water. I flew with Ryanair to Warsaw for €50 return with a 15kg checked bag, @ €9.99 each way and €15 each way for the bag.

Wizz Air flew to Gdansk, Katowice, Poznan, Vilnius, Warsaw Modlin and Wroclaw. Ryanair however simply blew Wizz Air away in an airfare war in the Winter of 2012 when Ryanair launched flights to Vilnius, Warsaw Modlin, Wroclaw and Gdansk and Wizz Air slowly dropped the routes until they were left with only Poznan and Katowice which Wizz Air shut down a short time later pulling out of Cork entirely. Shortly afterwards Ryanair pulled its routes leaving only Wroclaw served today.

Ryanair have been no friend to Cork Airport in my opinion and has cost the airport several routes which were successful thanks to the large Eastern European diaspora in Munster. The Warsaw-Modlin route was transferred to Shannon and would have been better suited to stay in Cork.

jahalpin

The major problems that Cork Airport has are;
- Cork is a small city by international standards, the population of the entire urban area is less than 400k
- Small runway, I'm not sure that a fully loaded US-bound A330 can actually take off from Cork
- Overall low population density of the country

Shannon has one major advantage over Cork in that it is the European diversionary airport for North Atlantic operations. The facilities at Shannon must be maintained so that it can fulfil this role

A number of people have complained about the debt associated with building the new terminal attaching to Cork Airport, this seems fair as the airport gets the entire benefit of the new facilities. On the other hand, most of the debt that was attached to Shannon which probably historical

The country does not have the population to support regional international airports and the only urban area with the required population density is Dublin. Most of the trans-Atlantic flights from Dublin are operated by single aisle 757 aircraft due to low loads

Any flights between Cork and Dublin would have to be operated as PSO routes as the loads just aren't there to operate the route profitably

goingnowhere

jahalpin wrote: »

Any flights between Cork and Dublin would have to be operated as PSO routes as the loads just aren't there to operate the route profitably

Cork Dublin cannot qualify as a PSO as the distance is too short and there are numerous other transport options, train being hourly and less than 3 hours which is an automatic no from the EU for a PSO

highlydebased

Cork-Gdansk also exists presently

Unfortunately for Cork and Shannon the only option for any noticeable growth quickly is Ryanair, once the terms exist of course. Looking for a portfolio diverse with sustainable routes from many European carriers is fine and well but no carrier will move in overnight. All but Ryanair are cautious and expansion into marginal markets probably not very high on the agenda either.

I could see Wizz starting routes again and Ryanair suddenly being pal pal with Cork again!

Zonda999

jahalpin wrote: »

The country does not have the population to support regional international airports and the only urban area with the required population density is Dublin.

I would tend to disagree with this one to be honest. There is a viable market for regional routes and limited continental services from Cork and Shannon, as well as scheduled routes to holiday destinations, as is the case ucrrently.

You are fundamentally correct though, having one large airport with the ability to viably support long haul routes would be preferable to having two (In the case of Dublin and Shannon) bashing off each other. However, Shannon's transatlantic operations are largely there because of its excellent relative location and the strong tourist flows that exist between Ireland and the USA. And because of that, I don't think Dublin and Shannon are really in competition at all.

Look at similarly countries to us in terms of population in Europe.Denmark and Finland come to mind. Denmark's airports passenger numbers are very similar to ours in a sense that the capital and primary airport (Copenhagen) has an extensive network of regional and international long haul services. However, the secondary airports, Billund and Aalborg have similar numbers to Shannon and Cork, and have a number of regional services and of sun destination scheduled and charter services. Interestingly, Turkish airlines operate an Istanbul – Billund – Aalborg – Istanbul service with an A320 also (Could a IST-SNN-ORK-IST service be a runner I wonder)

Yes, as a country we should strive to improve our internal transport infrastructure which may affect the dynamics of the regional airports, but this in itself not a reason not do so, be it in completing the M20 motorway between Cork and Limerick or improving rail links to take in Dublin airport and potentially connecting the regional cities to Dublin airport by train (assuming this is economically viable of course, I know this has been bandied about by Irish Rail recently enough)

L1011

BLL is very lucky in that (rather like SNN really...) its sugar daddy - Lego Group - gifted it for free.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

jahalpin wrote: »

- Small runway, I'm not sure that a fully loaded US-bound A330 can actually take off from Cork

Cork Airport's location puts a profound limitation on how it can be developed. Other than that, there's no particular reason why Cork Airport couldn't find a sustainable niche.

But I wouldn't see the point of Cork to Dublin flights. If it made sense to fly from Dublin to Cork, it would suggest there was something seriously wrong with our ground transportation. Seeing as how 75% of national air traffic comes in and out through Dublin, people seem to manage to find their way to the place.

jahalpin wrote: »

Shannon has one major advantage over Cork in that it is the European diversionary airport for North Atlantic operations. The facilities at Shannon must be maintained so that it can fulfil this role

That's actually a bit of a chimera. When Leo was Minister, he commented that he could find no basis for claiming this status

http://www.clarecourier.ie/article.asp?id=3173

I’ve heard of that government commitment but I’ve yet to come across it or to see it written down anywhere in any international agreement or any document if such a commitment exists.

Zonda999 wrote: »

You are fundamentally correct though, having one large airport with the ability to viably support long haul routes would be preferable to having two (In the case of Dublin and Shannon) bashing off each other.

In fairness, in practical terms there really is just one large transatlantic airport. Dublin accounts for over 80% of transatlantic traffic.

SpaceTime

The biggest problem for the Cork - Dublin flight was Ryanair putting inappropriate aircraft onto it and killing Aer Arran's ability to operate it with appropriately sized turboprops.

Cork-Dublin was never operated using 737s or A320s except where Aer Lingus used to use them for positioning flights like Cork - Dublin - CDG.

You would expect something like an ATR on that route.

Running that route with high capacity 737s was not a very sensible move.

Ground transport is vastly improved since the bad old days of single carriageway roads that took in every town's main street en route too. Driving between Dublin and Cork was a very different experience a few years ago.

The biggest loss to Cork has been eastern European routes and charters. That's been down to competition with Shannon and the collapse of the construction sector. There is much less towing and frowing from various parts od Eastern Europe due to smaller populations of people from there living here and because of wage reductions.

It needs to compete much harder to get in holiday flights and it needs to advertise itself much more effectively as a gateway to Ireland with good onward road and rail options, onsite hotels, a short drive from central Cork and on the doorstep of some of the most tourist friendly and spectacular parts of Ireland.

The tourism agencies need to be working with them as do the hotels etc in the region.

notharrypotter

it is the European diversionary airport for North Atlantic operations. The facilities at Shannon must be maintained so that it can fulfil this role

and

That's actually a bit of a chimera. When Leo was Minister, he commented that he could find no basis for claiming this status In fairness

AIP Ireland ENR 2.2.7.3 Still has not changed.

Shannon is deemed to be the only airport to be used for aircraft experiencing a radio failure to divert to before entering oceanic airspace.

By the way still waiting on that reply from your e-mail to the IAA.
Did you ever follow up even?

The biggest loss to Cork has been eastern European routes and charters

Not sure I would concur.
Biggest single loss is the demise of the domestic routes.
From Cork Airport website
2009

Domestic air traffic to and from Dublin fell by 24% to 336,000 passengers as a result of improvements in road and rail transport links between Ireland’s two largest city regions.

and
2008

The number of passengers travelling on domestic routes declined by 10% to 443,000 passengers during the year.

So domestic passengers in 2007 must have been around 480,000.

This was a significant loss. And is not likely to ever return.

The biggest problem for the Cork - Dublin flight was Ryanair putting inappropriate aircraft onto it and killing Aer Arran's ability to operate it with appropriately sized turboprops.

I would have to disagree here too.
Biggest single factor affecting all domestic air services is the improvements in the road network.
The increased security requirements did not help either but ground transport won out.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

notharrypotter wrote: »

AIP Ireland ENR 2.2.7.3 Still has not changed.

Shannon is deemed to be the only airport to be used for aircraft experiencing a radio failure to divert to before entering oceanic airspace.

I think its clear, on re-reading that the thread you linked, that this recommendation was too tenuous a ground to amount to the claims of some official status or designation. No-one has yet pointed to an unambiguous statement of this alleged obligation.

notharrypotter wrote: »

By the way still waiting on that reply from your e-mail to the IAA.
Did you ever follow up even?

I've received no reply. Feel free to make raise a query with them yourself.

man98

I blame DAA for it, Cork can manage better.

roundymac

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/no-state-funding-lifeline-for-cork-airport-315271.html
And it gets worse, now we know we are on our own and it's up to the people of Cork to fight our own corner.

man98

That article symbolises exactly what is wrong with the government. The DAA isn't part of the solution to Cork's trouble, and PSO to Dublin won't help - as much as I hate agreeing with FF - a CAA needs to be established as soon as possible.
PS. This culture of Shannon blaming (Kerry blaming is a new one for me) by management needs to stop. Cork handles more pax than both others combined (for now). If the DAA complain about how much they charge, drop it themselves, it'd be offset eventually I'd say.

roundymac

A small bit o good news for a change. Czech airlines are to fly to Ibiza twice weekly this summer. From the timings it would appear the instead of overnighting after arriving from Prague it will instead do a return night flight to Ibiza, departing at 12.15am and arriving back at 6.15am

roundymac

Some more good news on top of the Ibiza route with CSA.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/airline-to-announce-new-service-to-cork-and-dublin-316135.html#.VPgUXcO20Eo.facebook Cork to Cardiff.