Par 4's

Freemount09

Hi guys,

A couple of Q's about courses and par 4's in particular.

1. Which course has the longest run of par 4's in Ireland ?
2. How many par 4's in a row before the round is in danger of getting tedious or boring in your view ?
3. What is the optimum number of par 4's on a course?


I'd be interested in your views - Cheers !

newport2

Freemount09 wrote: »

Hi guys,

A couple of Q's about courses and par 4's in particular.

1. Which course has the longest run of par 4's in Ireland ?
2. How many par 4's in a row before the round is in danger of getting tedious or boring in your view ?
3. What is the optimum number of par 4's on a course?


I'd be interested in your views - Cheers !

1. The Island starts with 8 straight par 4's. (not sure if this is the most or not)
2. It's defintely not tedious or boring in my view!
3. 10

PARlance

Voted 10, having 2 3's, 5 4's and 2 5's on a 9 is my ideal.

Not sure about the longest stretch but Slade Valley has a lot of Par 4's. Wouldn't call it tedious but a change from the norm, think there is only 1 non Par 4 in the last 11 holes iirc. A par 3 interrupts the 10 par 4's (Only one par 5 in the 18 too I think).

Edmundy

PARlance wrote: »

Voted 10, having 2 3's, 5 4's and 2 5's on a 9 is my ideal
Agree

moycullen14

Answering the question you didn't ask

Is there a longer run WITHOUT a par 4 than the belvelly (old back 9, new nine) configuration in Fota?

From the 8th, it goes Par 3, Par 5, Par 5, Par 5, Par 3, Par 5 - 6 holes without a par 4. I've never come across anything like it.

slave1

Has to be a classic 10par 4's with 4par 3's and 4par 5's, split equally 36/36.
I don't care about run of par 4's on the card, as long as you don't feel it.
Does Baltray not have a long run of par 4's, just checked it there and 8-14 all par 4's, I think that's testing the limit being honest as it's one that sticks out in my mind (3 par 5's in 5 holes too)!

Slicemeister

Voted 11or 12, wouldn't care so long as they weren't a borefest. Take the new 9 in Charleville, 4-9 all par 4s, yet you'd never notice as there's a good mix of holes imo, apart maybe from 8and 9.

Rikand

4, 10, 4

Though I have no preference as to what amount is on each 9.

Senna

10 par4's is the ideal amount and a few short par 4s where you have to place every shot or walk off with a 6 while scratching your head.

spacecoyote

Senna wrote: »

10 par4's is the ideal amount and a few short par 4s where you have to place every shot or walk off with a 6 while scratching your head.

Agreed, I'm pretty agnostic re the number of par 4s (even though I voted 10) but I would generally prefer a course where the length of the par 4s varies.

It can get a bit boring with all king par 4s just requiring a driver off every tee box. Should definitely be options as far as choice of club & method of playing on them

callaway92

Any more than four Par 4s in-a-row can become tedious. Nothing better than a nice Par 3 reachable with a wedge after a run of them.

Freemount09

Cheers for replies lads. Is there any beating the 8 par 4's in a row in the Island !?

charlieIRL

Freemount09 wrote: »

Cheers for replies lads. Is there any beating the 8 par 4's in a row in the Island !?

Moate GC has 9 in a row I think. From the 5th to the 13th inclusive. Mixture of long and short Par 4's with a driveable one or two thrown in

Golfgorfield

the Islands 8 in a row, though not ideal is well mixed with some long ones mixed in with some short really tricky ones, such a fantastic golf course, though there is rumour of changes....... 8th tee to 9th green as a new par 4 is rumoured.

The_Architect

Freemount09 wrote: »

Hi guys,

A couple of Q's about courses and par 4's in particular.

1. Which course has the longest run of par 4's in Ireland ?
2. How many par 4's in a row before the round is in danger of getting tedious or boring in your view ?
3. What is the optimum number of par 4's on a course?


I'd be interested in your views - Cheers !

1. Sounds like Moate or The Island.
2. Par-4's actually present the most opportunity for variety so I'm not sure I'd ever worry about a string of par-4's in a row, if they offer something different to each other.
3. The stock answers here worry me. Why do people think 4-10-4 is the best solution? For me it is whatever mix of holes best suits the site. Most classic courses in Britain and Ireland have a different mix of holes. The modern developer led push for 4-10-4 is a detriment to good golf design. Generally speaking though -if pushed - I'd say that I prefer less than four par-5's on a course. And would be quite happy with more than four par-3's.

stockdam

I don't mind how many par 4s there are, I prefer par 5s but I wouldn't mind 18 holes of par 4 as long as each hole was different. I hate par 3s.

OK hate is too strong a word as some par 3s are good. A par 3 gives an opportunity to force the player to hit a long iron or rescue. However what I don't like about most par threes is that you have to play the same shot each time you play it (wind and conditions being the same).

A good par 4 makes you decide how to play it and what line to come into the green. You have a varied 2nd shot and you can play to your strengths. You don't really get the same options on a par 3.

A course that has a lot of similar straight forward par 4s can be boring but on a good par 4 you have to decide how to play it. I love risk/reward holes where you can play them aggressively or conservatively. I love holes where if you hit a good tee shot then your reward is an easier 2nd shot.

PARlance

The_Architect wrote: »

1. Sounds like Moate or The Island.
2. Par-4's actually present the most opportunity for variety so I'm not sure I'd ever worry about a string of par-4's in a row, if they offer something different to each other.
3. The stock answers here worry me. Why do people think 4-10-4 is the best solution? For me it is whatever mix of holes best suits the site. Most classic courses in Britain and Ireland have a different mix of holes. The modern developer led push for 4-10-4 is a detriment to good golf design. Generally speaking though -if pushed - I'd say that I prefer less than four par-5's on a course. And would be quite happy with more than four par-3's.

It's a fairly generic question, I'm a fan or 4-10-4 in theory as I like the mix of holes it offers over 18.
What's worrying for 4-10-4 being the stock answer to this generic question?

I've never judged a course on how far it deviates from my preferred 4-10-4,
one of my favourite courses to play is Corballis and that's 6-11-1.
And I don't think any golfer would want a course to go against the lie of the land just to hit their quota.

Unglika Norse

One of the courses I've always hated playing because it has 14 par 4s 2 par 5s and 2 par 3s, is the old course,

The_Architect

PARlance wrote: »

It's a fairly generic question, I'm a fan or 4-10-4 in theory as I like the mix of holes it offers over 18.
What's worrying for 4-10-4 being the stock answer to this generic question?

I've never judged a course on how far it deviates from my preferred 4-10-4,
one of my favourite courses to play is Corballis and that's 6-11-1.
And I don't think any golfer would want a course to go against the lie of the land just to hit their quota.

Agreed, it's such a generic question that there really is no answer.

I just think the stock answer of 4-10-4 is self-perpetuating and makes people think that this is the ideal configuration. Most (maybe all) of my favourite courses don't have this as their hole mix. And I hate the trend to artificially design a square peg in to a round hole to make it so.

Freemount09

The_Architect wrote: »

Agreed, it's such a generic question that there really is no answer.

I just think the stock answer of 4-10-4 is self-perpetuating and makes people think that this is the ideal configuration. Most (maybe all) of my favourite courses don't have this as their hole mix. And I hate the trend to artificially design a square peg in to a round hole to make it so.

Sorry, maybe I phrased the Q wrong ? Obviously there is nothing worse than squezing in a par 5 when the land isn't there to warrent it, or it is just dangerous, likewise it wouldn't be optimal to have a 15 min walk from a par 3 to the next tee box if the par 3 could be lenghtened to a par 5 to make more efficient use of the land available.

It was a generic question, based on if you had a plot of land and certain options was available to you and certain configurations.

I think I'd prefer 4 - 10 - 4 cause it is balanced and should provide a better overall test with 4 par 3's to test your iron accuracy and the 4 par 5's testing the longer game and ball striking. Generically speaking obviously !!

Kevinmarkham

Golfgorfield wrote: »

the Islands 8 in a row, though not ideal is well mixed with some long ones mixed in with some short really tricky ones, such a fantastic golf course, though there is rumour of changes....... 8th tee to 9th green as a new par 4 is rumoured.

I think that's out of the running now, Gorfield. Personally, I thought it was a terrible idea. I'd stand in front of a digger if they tried to change that 8th!

The new par three 4th is also going to be just a temporary hole (if one of the others needs work, as is currently the case on the par three 9th... coincidentally). At least that's the last I heard.

As for par fours - I agree completely with Architect. It all depends on the site. The Island starts with eight par fours, but there is so much variety you just don't notice.

slave1

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

The Island starts with eight par fours, but there is so much variety you just don't notice.

Then IMHO this is fine, it's only when you feel the monotony that too many is wrong, far be it from me to critique Baltray but I did find their stretch of par 4 noticeable and remember thinking 'another' par 4!
Shoot me down but it would not take much to turn the 11th into a par 5 to break that run up.

Regarding The Architect comments on forcing I totally agree, I was thinking all else being equal in my initial response. Forcing anything on a golf course is something I never quite understand e.g. no trees surrounding the course and then someone decides to plant trees to separate fairways for the sake of it, this is not sympathetic to what was presented raw before the course was there so why do it, and don't get me started on mounds!

Senna

A course I love to play is Murvagh, great variety but never really though about the pars, but just look at this score card;


It would almost make you want to play it

stockdam

Senna wrote: »

A course I love to play is Murvagh, great variety but never really though about the pars, but just look at this score card;

Very similar to Skerries which only has one "run" of 4s (3 in a row).

4-3-4-5-4-5-3-5-4
4-4-3-4-5-3-4-5-4

So other than the 9th to 11th, you don't get back to back par 4s. I'm sure a lot if courses are like that with few pairs or more of 4s.

Are there any courses that don't have at least one pair of 4s?

FixdePitchmark

I love The Island - favourite course on east coast. First time I played it, couldn't believe there was a links that good, so close to me all them years. Sadly , just too expensive to play much.

As, others have said - most of the opening par 4s are so different.

I'm still one who likes 4-10-4 ratio, as I think it is good for a fair competition, lads good at par 5s, can sometimes be bad at par 3s etc.

A course that feels forced a bit ,is Castleknock. 5 - 8 - 5

I guess others could say it is more efficient use of land - as it seems to have a much smaller footprint versus the likes of a Heritage.

paulos53

stockdam wrote: »

Are there any courses that don't have at least one pair of 4s?

I played Alicante golf club on holidays a few years back. The 9th and 10th are par 5s and that is the only time that you play the same par on consecutive holes.

TrapperChamonix

slave1 wrote: »

Then IMHO this is fine, it's only when you feel the monotony that too many is wrong, far be it from me to critique Baltray but I did find their stretch of par 4 noticeable and remember thinking 'another' par 4!
Shoot me down but it would not take much to turn the 11th into a par 5 to break that run up.

Regarding The Architect comments on forcing I totally agree, I was thinking all else being equal in my initial response. Forcing anything on a golf course is something I never quite understand e.g. no trees surrounding the course and then someone decides to plant trees to separate fairways for the sake of it, this is not sympathetic to what was presented raw before the course was there so why do it, and don't get me started on mounds!

Personally, I find courses that play 9 out and 9 back far more monotonous that any sequencing of holes. Ie I'm far more likely to say "not another drive into the wind" rather that "oh not another par 4"

Anatom

I agree about the variety being more important than the number, but I still put down ten because it seems to work well.

We don't actually have a "run" of par 4s at all in PH. We have three pairs of them, with the rest interspersed with the threes and fives. 1st/2nd, 4th/5th and 17th/18th.

titlebearer

On Blarney Golf Course there is 12 Par 4's on the course. 2 Par 5's (One of which was apparently designed by John Daly) and 4 par 3's. In fairness they do break up the course but 12 par 4's is a lot on any golf course.

Domo1982

Good example - Blarney has a great mix of par 4's including 3-4 Driveable on a given day

slave1

Domo1982 wrote: »

Good example - Blarney has a great mix of par 4's including 3-4 Driveable on a given day

Every course should have a risk/reward drivable par 4, somewhere towards the end to throw some chances of a low number or destroy the card into the mix. 3-4 probably a bit too much though IMHO

Slicemeister

Those back to back par 5s in Blarney kill the place for me. They should've split them up at least, seeing as there's only 2.

PARlance

Slicemeister wrote: »

Those back to back par 5s in Blarney kill the place for me. They should've split them up at least, seeing as there's only 2.

Keep it for the Par 5 thread

Ally McIntosh

From the top of my head, some great courses in Britain and Ireland with a different mix of pars to 4-10-4 that came straight to mind:

Ballybunion: 5-9-4 (including a stretch that goes 3-5-3-3-5)
The Berkshire (Red): 6-6-6
St.Andrews (Old): 2-14-2
West Sussex: 5-12-1
Elie: 2-16-0
Crail: 6-10-2
Portmarnock: 3-12-3
The Island: 3-13-2
Strandhill: 4-13-1
Royal St Davids: 5-11-2
Carne (composite): 5-8-5

There are a huge number of world class golf courses that include five par-3’s. Many that are par-68, 69 or 70. Can think of quite a few great Par-73’s but no really excellent Par-74’s.

Ally

Domo1982

Ally McIntosh wrote: »

From the top of my head, some great courses in Britain and Ireland with a different mix of pars to 4-10-4 that came straight to mind:

Ballybunion: 5-9-4 (including a stretch that goes 3-5-3-3-5)
The Berkshire (Red): 6-6-6
St.Andrews (Old): 2-14-2
West Sussex: 5-12-1
Elie: 2-16-0
Crail: 6-10-2
Portmarnock: 3-12-3
The Island: 3-13-2
Strandhill: 4-13-1
Royal St Davids: 5-11-2
Carne (composite): 5-8-5

There are a huge number of world class golf courses that include five par-3’s. Many that are par-68, 69 or 70. Can think of quite a few great Par-73’s but no really excellent Par-74’s.

Ally

That Berkshire Red looks pure evil

diomed

I like 4x3; 10x4; 4x5 starting and ending with par 4s, preferably an easy 4 to start. That leaves the other 16 holes 50% par 4s, and 50% 3s and 5s.

Freemount09

titlebearer wrote: »

On Blarney Golf Course there is 12 Par 4's on the course. 2 Par 5's (One of which was apparently designed by John Daly) and 4 par 3's. In fairness they do break up the course but 12 par 4's is a lot on any golf course.

I thought he designed the whole course ? Apart from the par 3 (10th ?) which he designed as the double back par 4 !

Slicemeister wrote: »

Those back to back par 5s in Blarney kill the place for me. They should've split them up at least, seeing as there's only 2.

I agree !

PARlance wrote: »

Keep it for the Par 5 thread

I agree with this too - start your own Par 5 thread !!


Cheers for the votes and comments.

titlebearer

I was a member in Blarney briefly when I first moved to Cork. They had a monthly membership deal. Speaking with the members the hotel was selling the whole course as a Daly designed course. However most of the members believed he only designed one hole which was the Par 5 8th. 600 yards off the blues up hill. The rest was designed by somebody else.

slave1

Hate the par 4 13th in Athlone with a passion, blind first and if you're lucky blind second, just not right...

charlieIRL

slave1 wrote: »

Hate the par 4 13th in Athlone with a passion, blind first and if you're lucky blind second, just not right...

Take on the hill!! It's shorter than you think!!

slave1

What a great risk/reward reachable par 4...

Scott Piercy visits bunkers four times on No. 10 at Northern Trust
In the opening round of the 2015 Northern Trust Open, Scott Piercy takes four strokes to get out of the bunkers surrounding the par-4 10th hole, eventually carding a double-bogey six.

http://www.pgatour.com/video/2015/02/19/scott-piercy-visits-bunkers-four-times-on-no--10-at-northern-tru.html#ooid=dxcjdoczpzx3rSAPWPaxjggxd89_VWnW

charlieIRL

slave1 wrote: »

What a great risk/reward reachable par 4...

Scott Piercy visits bunkers four times on No. 10 at Northern Trust
In the opening round of the 2015 Northern Trust Open, Scott Piercy takes four strokes to get out of the bunkers surrounding the par-4 10th hole, eventually carding a double-bogey six.

http://www.pgatour.com/video/2015/02/19/scott-piercy-visits-bunkers-four-times-on-no--10-at-northern-tru.html#ooid=dxcjdoczpzx3rSAPWPaxjggxd89_VWnW

Painful, tiny green isnt it?

I see i mark my golf ball the same too.....smiley face!!!

Rikand

slave1 wrote: »

Hate the par 4 13th in Athlone with a passion, blind first and if you're lucky blind second, just not right...

Well its index 3 for a reason. Its not a long hole. When I play it, I hit 4 iron off the tee - 8 iron to the green. Or you can cut the corner like Charlie does and leave yourself a sandwedge

denishurley

Hope this doesn't count as bumping, but Bandon has 13 par-4s, three par-3s and two par-5s. First six are par-4s but it doesn't feel like a slog.