Irish Rail - passenger fined €5,500

Gatling

Looks like a yearly ticket holder got more than he bargained for when he was stopped at a train station recently by inspectors despite him paying for train station A to Station C he stayed on till station F for want of a better word

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/free-rail-trips-end-up-costing-passenger-5500-30958835.html


On a side note 1200 ftp confiscated for misuse in 2014 alone

Atlantic Dawn

I suppose they said to him that he either pays or he will be exposed in court and thus publically identified as a leech.

Gatling

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I suppose they said to him that he either pays or he will be exposed in court and thus publically identified as a leech.

Much like the guy in the UK who paid £43,000 and lost his job in the stock market if I read correctly after caught fare evading for 8 years

L1011

How was he getting through the barriers every day?

LXFlyer

A design flaw in point-to-point tickets apparently.

schemingbohemia

Should have been named and shamed. They should have a wall of shame of photos of those fined and publish it online and at each station, would seriously impact on fare-dodgers.

kc56

lxflyer wrote: »

A design flaw in point-to-point tickets apparently.

Perhaps corrected in the new Leap Card versions??

L1011

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Should have been named and shamed. They should have a wall of shame of photos of those fined and publish it online and at each station, would seriously impact on fare-dodgers.

I think this was stopped in the UK due to data protection rules. We have very similar laws here

thomasj

If he had let's say 20 euro on his leap account would the balance have been taken off after Balbriggan?

Presuming that when someone flashes their leap card at the start point the point to point takes precedence.

L1011

kc56 wrote: »

Perhaps corrected in the new Leap Card versions??

This was one, it appears.

Muahahaha

Not defending this guys antics but Balbrigan to Dublin approx 15 miles €1100 for an annual ticket. Balbriggan to Blackrock, approx 8 miles more costs a further €4,000? Seems bizarre. I remember a few years back a lot of Drogheda residents drive to Balbriggan to get the train because the return from there was something like €20 whereas somewhere around €6 from Balbriggan, is this still the case?

LXFlyer

Muahahaha wrote: »

Not defending this guys antics but Balbrigan to Dublin approx 15 miles €1100 for an annual ticket. Balbriggan to Blackrock, approx 8 miles more costs a further €4,000? Seems bizarre. I remember a few years back a lot of Drogheda residents drive to Balbriggan to get the train because the return from there was something like €20 whereas somewhere around €6 from Balbriggan, is this still the case?

I think you have your sums wrong, and also seem to be getting totally mixed up in how they arrived at the penalty.

The guy paid for an annual Drogheda to Balbriggan ticket - that cost €1,160.

He should have got an annual Drogheda to Blackrock ticket costing €3,040.

However, they applied a single fare from Balbriggan to Blackrock for every trip he had made (the bit he had no ticket for) and that totalled €5,500 which is what he was billed.

All that being said, fares within the Dublin Suburban Short Hop Zone are subsidised at a higher level than those outside it, so yes fares from Drogheda are higher as they use the Intercity fares matrix rather than suburban.

A day return from Drogheda to Dublin is €23.35 (€14.60 after 09:30). Balbriggan to Dublin is €10.60 return (€9.20 on LEAP).

Unfortunately the suburban zone has to stop somewhere, and it's always been Balbriggan.

Muahahaha

sorry thought it was Balbriggan he began his trip. I wonder how many others are pulling similar stunts, there has to be a few out there risking it, this is Ireland after all

goingnowhere

Muahahaha wrote: »

Not defending this guys antics but Balbrigan to Dublin approx 15 miles €1100 for an annual ticket. Balbriggan to Blackrock, approx 8 miles more costs a further €4,000? Seems bizarre. I remember a few years back a lot of Drogheda residents drive to Balbriggan to get the train because the return from there was something like €20 whereas somewhere around €6 from Balbriggan, is this still the case?

Balbriggan Blackrock is 26miles

Passenger had a Drogheda Balbriggan ticket only (which is 10 miles)

L1011

Muahahaha wrote: »

I wonder how many others are pulling similar stunts

Quite possibly a few more now that details on how to do it have come out!

goingnowhere

lxflyer wrote: »

Unfortunately the suburban zone has to stop somewhere, and it's always been Balbriggan.

It was Skerries when first introduced, very quickly became Balbriggan which is where the huge step in fares was created in the first place

LXFlyer

goingnowhere wrote: »

It was Skerries when first introduced, very quickly became Balbriggan which is where the huge step in fares was created in the first place

You are going back a VERY long way - as long as I have known it (and that's since the 70s) it was Balbriggan!

Heisenberg1

Over 9000 penalty fares issued 1000 free travel passes confiscated if these are the numbers they are catching how many are getting through ?? They must be losing money hand over fist with fare evaders.

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

How was he getting through the barriers every day?

probably nobody there. seems both here and in the UK revenue protection is as minimal as you can get

end of the road

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Should have been named and shamed. They should have a wall of shame of photos of those fined and publish it online and at each station, would seriously impact on fare-dodgers.

it wouldn't.

goingnowhere

end of the road wrote: »

probably nobody there. seems both here and in the UK revenue protection is as minimal as you can get

No, due to a bug in the smartcard system, the ticket opened the gate. Since the card was read by the reader in Blackrock Irish Rail could prove its case by looking at the backend records and those held on the card and extract the cash

Seems like Irish Rail were told about this but did not fix the bug http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=15274

schemingbohemia

end of the road wrote: »

it wouldn't.

A well argued point :rolleyes: I know from using the DART every day that it's not just "scrotes" not paying for their tickets, it's a very broad cross-section of society. I'd be certain the threat of having their photo displayed and their name published on a list would reduce the numbers not paying for tickets.

I wonder if the person fined €5.5k was working in the financial services sector here (Blackrock has a number of insurance/financial offices) could their actions deem them not to be fit and proper, as impacted on the famous case in the UK?

renegademaster

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I suppose they said to him that he either pays or he will be exposed in court and thus publically identified as a leech.

oh no, the shame!! :pac:

end of the road

schemingbohemia wrote: »

A well argued point :rolleyes: I know from using the DART every day that it's not just "scrotes" not paying for their tickets, it's a very broad cross-section of society. I'd be certain the threat of having their photo displayed and their name published on a list would reduce the numbers not paying for tickets.

I wonder if the person fined €5.5k was working in the financial services sector here (Blackrock has a number of insurance/financial offices) could their actions deem them not to be fit and proper, as impacted on the famous case in the UK?

i think if they were really worried about the shame of getting caught they wouldn't do it in the first place. the fact that they do it in the first place suggests to me they wouldn't be deterred by naming and shaming

Gatling

end of the road wrote: »

i think if they were really worried about the shame of getting caught they wouldn't do it in the first place. the fact that they do it in the first place suggests to me they wouldn't be deterred by naming and shaming

It's down to opportunitist and lack of enforcement that doesn't deter people same works for people defrauding there employers and the same for shoplifters.
should bus and Train operators be in a position to flood various routes with inspectors there would be a massive increase in fines issued and a fall in the numbers trying there luck,
And if they put posters up on the dart , intercity and buses of people Caught evading it would act as a disencentive

Colonial

Has anyone realised it would be cheaper to drive? Public transport should not be that expensive - why couldn't carbon tax that was introduced be used to subsidise public transport to encourage more people on to it and increase carriages and make sure there are seats? I dont even use public transport any more but I had to use the dart for work for 2 years. €120 a month for a 22 minute journey... That is a rip off. If you feel like you are being ripped off then it can push people. Connecting multiple forms of public transport is atrociously expensive here...

end of the road

Gatling wrote: »

should bus and Train operators be in a position to flood various routes with inspectors there would be a massive increase in fines issued and a fall in the numbers trying there luck

yes but they won't and can't employ the inspectors. i believe inspectors should be on every train and bus myself but there is more chance of hell freezing over.

Gatling wrote: »

if they put posters up on the dart , intercity and buses of people Caught evading it would act as a disencentive

i don't believe it would. that mindset doesn't exist in this country. inspectors on every bus and train are the only chance but that costs money, all be it money i'd be happy for to be payed.

LXFlyer

Gatling wrote: »

It's down to opportunitist and lack of enforcement that doesn't deter people same works for people defrauding there employers and the same for shoplifters.
should bus and Train operators be in a position to flood various routes with inspectors there would be a massive increase in fines issued and a fall in the numbers trying there luck,
And if they put posters up on the dart , intercity and buses of people Caught evading it would act as a disencentive

That's what Irish Rail have been doing - regular ticket checking blitzes.

This guy was caught at one of them.

Gatling

end of the road wrote: »

i don't believe it would. that mindset doesn't exist in this country

Pretty broad statement personally I believe it would work especially if it starts effecting people's work and career opportunities

Pipmae

Gatling wrote: »

And if they put posters up on the dart , intercity and buses of people Caught evading it would act as a disencentive

I agree it would deter some people. I have an annual ticket from Gormanston to Lansdowne Road and when Irish Rail first cracked down on fare evading the caught a LOT of fare dodgers at Gormaston who had only paid to Balbriggan. The fare jumps substantially between the two stations. The annual ticket fare is reasonable but the peak time day return is expensive compared to Balbriggan.

To this day I often see a new face appear at the station only to disappear a month or so later. Putting two and two together I'd hazzard a guess that they were caught at Gormanston only paying as far as Balbriggan.

These people were normal every day commuters iykwim - not scrotes as someone else put it. Hell I've been known to chance it myself in the distant past.....;)

Losty Dublin

Colonial wrote: »

Has anyone realised it would be cheaper to drive? Public transport should not be that expensive - why couldn't carbon tax that was introduced be used to subsidise public transport to encourage more people on to it and increase carriages and make sure there are seats?

The annual Drogheda to Blackrock train ticket costs €1,459 or €2097.60 via Taxsaver, depending on what tax rate you are on. You'd want a very efficient car to do the 120KM round trip and yet cost you less, not allowing for road tolls.

Atlantic Dawn

renegademaster wrote: »

oh no, the shame!! :pac:

It was clearly someone in a respectable job that didn't want their name in the dirt, otherwise they would have let it go to court and just got the fine for the 1 journey they were caught for which is all they could have been legally fined for.

tomdublin

He should have called their bluff and let them take him to court. They would have had to prove that he's been the one who has been using the ticket. If they retain CCTV footage for that long this would have been easy, but if not probably quite difficult.

Losty Dublin

tomdublin wrote: »

He should have called their bluff and let them take him to court. They would have had to prove that he's been the one who has been using the ticket. If they retain CCTV footage for that long this would have been easy, but if not probably quite difficult.

A condition of a periodic ticket such as an annual pass is that only one person may use it; lending it out is not allowed. If a passenger was taken to court then the onus is on them to make the defence that it was somebody else who was using their pass and not the other way around.

Tickityboo

yes but they won't and can't employ the inspectors. i believe inspectors should be on every train and bus myself but there is more chance of hell freezing over.




Dublin Bus are conducting interviews for 80 partime ticket inspectors as we speak.

Gatling

Take on inspectors through jobbridge if necessary give them a free travel bonus for every evader caught and fined.

LXFlyer

tomdublin wrote: »

He should have called their bluff and let them take him to court. They would have had to prove that he's been the one who has been using the ticket. If they retain CCTV footage for that long this would have been easy, but if not probably quite difficult.

Or maybe he should have been honest in the first place and bought the correct ticket like the majority of people?


I find this sort of attitude really disturbing - what hope is there for Irish society with this sort of nonsense?


You are effectively advocating fare evasion.

Carawaystick

The Indo says the annual ticket from Drogheda to Balbriggan is 1160, and a Drogheda to Blackrock ticket is 3040
but a short hop annual ticket ( which covers to Greystones) is 1420.
Thats 460 of a difference that someone is gouging.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

Or maybe he should have been honest in the first place and bought the correct ticket like the majority of people?


I find this sort of attitude really disturbing - what hope is there for Irish society with this sort of nonsense?


You are effectively advocating fare evasion.

well, if they bothered to employ people to stop it then it would be very limited and those doing it would be easily caught, but no we must have the minimalist approach. if irish rail can't be bothered then its not surprising people have the attitude you and others are so against

L1011

Passengers have a responsibility to pay their fares whether enforced or not.

Operators have a responsibility to make sure fares are paid whether pax are honest or not.

Nothing is going to release surgery if these. People refusing to pay their way impacts everyone just as lax enforcement does

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

The Indo says the annual ticket from Drogheda to Balbriggan is 1160, and a Drogheda to Blackrock ticket is 3040
but a short hop annual ticket ( which covers to Greystones) is 1420.
Thats 460 of a difference that someone is gouging.

No it is not €460.

You cannot use split tickets like that and continue on the same train. You would have to leave the station and validate the new ticket and get the next train.

The OP should have paid the relevant fare and that's from Drogheda to Blackrock.

From the conditions of carriage:

Except where specially authorised, passengers are not permitted to re-book at an intermediate station for the purpose of continuing their journey by the same train. Two or more tickets covering different portions of one journey are not available unless the fares paid for such tickets are equivalent in amount to the price of a single journey ticket between the same points. Any passenger using two or more tickets covering different portions of one journey will be liable to pay the full ordinary single fare for the journey made and he or she may be liable to prosecution.

Carawaystick

Its still gouging.

IÉ wouldn't have such a huge difference in price if they didn't have a pseudo monopoly on the route.

What's the full ordinary single fare from Balbriggan to Blackrock? Is it the leap fare?
Is it less than an annual short hop ticket?

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

Its still gouging.

IÉ wouldn't have such a huge difference in price if they didn't have a pseudo monopoly on the route.

What's the full ordinary single fare from Balbriggan to Blackrock? Is it the leap fare?
Is it less than an annual short hop ticket?

The bus and train fares within the Dublin Short Hop Zone are subsidised at a higher rate. You have to have a boundary somewhere, and that was decided years ago as Balbriggan.

If you've an issue with that then I suggest you talk with your politicians. But I rather doubt you'll get very far with it.

Incidentally there are private bus operators along the route.

Frankly, you're beginning to make it sound like the guy was justified in evading the fare?

djburchgrove

Am I not right in saying you are not legally obliged to hand over your ticket to an inspector? then the worst they can do is ask you to get off the train and possibly issue a 100 Euro fine?

LXFlyer

djburchgrove wrote: »

Am I not right in saying you are not legally obliged to hand over your ticket to an inspector? then the worst they can do is ask you to get off the train and possibly issue a 100 Euro fine?

No - they also are entitled to claim the unpaid fares.

Jawgap

tomdublin wrote: »

He should have called their bluff and let them take him to court. They would have had to prove that he's been the one who has been using the ticket. If they retain CCTV footage for that long this would have been easy, but if not probably quite difficult.

Yeah, I think he should've done that too - that way IE could have punished him properly by lashing him with the €100 penalty fare for each time he freeloaded.

People seem to think the District Court is like LA Law, or any of those American legal series - it's not. A judge is going to take a look at the evidence and in circumstances like in the story described, he's then going to hop off our fare evading friend.

You can go all technical if you want, but that's what's going to happen - then what? Appeal to the Circuit Court? That'll cost a lot more than what he agreed to pay.

end of the road

Jawgap wrote: »

Yeah, I think he should've done that too - that way IE could have punished him properly by lashing him with the €100 penalty fare for each time he freeloaded.

which he should refuse to pay. infact he should have just gone to court and let whatever be. there is always the option of going to jail instead if he can't pay and feels strongly about it.

Jawgap wrote: »

People seem to think the District Court is like LA Law, or any of those American legal series - it's not.

i don't see anyone thinking anything of the sort. all in your head.

Jawgap wrote: »

A judge is going to take a look at the evidence and in circumstances like in the story described, he's then going to hop off our fare evading friend.

he might not

Jawgap wrote: »

You can go all technical if you want, but that's what's going to happen

is it?

Jawgap wrote: »

- then what? Appeal to the Circuit Court? That'll cost a lot more than what he agreed to pay.

or again as i said, he could always refuse and go to jail instead.

Jawgap

end of the road wrote: »

which he should refuse to pay. infact he should have just gone to court and let whatever be. there is always the option of going to jail instead if he can't pay and feels strongly about it.



i don't see anyone thinking anything of the sort. all in your head.



he might not



is it?



or again as i said, he could always refuse and go to jail instead.

Irish people like to focus on the 'process' when it comes to the law - that if the process is flawed then somehow the outcome is wrong. Judges at the lower levels of judicial administration don't play that way - at least not in my experience, ymmv

Anyone thinking that some penetrating cross-examination of the revenue protection person will yield a positive outcome should go spend half a day sitting in a DC and watch it in action - if you are going to play at lawyer in there the judge will quickly disabuse you of those notions because they are far too busy.

They'll see fare dodgers, like this guy, for what they are, freeloaders, cheats and parasites.

end of the road

Jawgap wrote: »

fare dodgers, like this guy, for what they are, freeloaders, cheats and parasites.

ah get off your high horse. this is irish rails doing for not bothering to protect their money and to fix loop holes. there is no way in a normal world people like him would be able to go on for as long as he was able to do, but here and in parts of britain it seems to be fare dodger central because companies can't be bothered. he shouldn't have payed them a cent. they don't deserve it until they get their act together. when irish rail makes a real effort my sympathy for them will come back, but until then, mine at least is nill

Jawgap

end of the road wrote: »

ah get off your high horse. this is irish rails doing for not bothering to protect their money and to fix loop holes. there is no way in a normal world people like him would be able to go on for as long as he was able to do, but here and in parts of britain it seems to be fare dodger central because companies can't be bothered. he shouldn't have payed them a cent. they don't deserve it until they get their act together. when irish rail makes a real effort my sympathy for them will come back, but until then, mine at least is nill

You know how idiotic that sounds?

If people just paid their way, the companies would have more money, and could spend it on facilities, vehicles and operators instead of revenue protection staff.

end of the road

Jawgap wrote: »

You know how idiotic that sounds?

If people just paid their way, the companies would have more money, and could spend it on facilities, vehicles and operators instead of revenue protection staff.

nonsense. revenue protection staff are needed even if everyone pays their way. irish rails responsibility to protect their revenue, if they can't be bothered then people like him will continue. they would have enough vehicles if they weren't either in store, or perfectly good not even near mid life ones scrapped because they weren't shiny and new.