Chris Benoit

rizzla

I'm just recently getting back into wrestling. Partly due to my enjoyment of the OTT shows and the recent availability of the WWE Network.

Just wondering what is your view of Chris Benoit?

On the Network his matches are still available but you can't search by his name. Any mention of him on any show is carefully removed from the summary even if he is in the main event.

Whenever I watch a match, no matter how into it I may get, I'm constantly brought back to what he did. It constantly taints the matches I've watched so far, so much so I may even start fast forwarding through them. I would like to know if people can separate what happened in reality to the character and can enjoy his matches.

I've no doubt this may have been brought up already but I've searched and could only find threads many years old.

BohsJohnny

I really find it hard to watch his matches if it's a multi man I might but anything where he is the center of attention I can't enjoy at all but I wouldn't criticize those who do.

rovert

Like BohsJohnny I wouldn't directly seek out one of his matches. My feelings have softened in past years were I can watch him in a match were is playing a secondary role. I don't think I could watch Royal Rumble 2004 or Wrestlemania XX (especially the post match with Daniel) for example.

I understand and advocate separating the art from the artist. But with Benoit to be honest I do judge people who are completely grand watching his matches. His WWE ring music is essentially the Wrestling version of this:

Then you have so many killer type allusions made towards his Wrestling persona. The camera focusing on his hands, Jim Ross or whomever's commentary playing into him being this cold hearted machine.

Then you have the whole head trauma craic which you are reminded about every time he violently lands on the back of his head doing German suplexes or on the front of his head doing the diving headbutt.

THEN I remember reading the Wrestling Observer I read Chris killed Daniel with more or less a Crippler Crossface choke. So yeah.

The level of compartmentalisation you have to do is pretty huge.

rizzla

BohsJohnny wrote: »

I really find it hard to watch his matches if it's a multi man I might but anything where he is the center of attention I can't enjoy at all but I wouldn't criticize those who do.

I wouldn't judge criticize them myself either just wondering how?

I recently watched One Night Stand 05 and Joey Styles say's something like. Eddie has to tap or have his neck broken while in the crossface. An I was just thinking of the details from what happened, whether true or not and I was just thinking I'd rather not feel like this.

Diabhal Beag

I don't really watch any past stuff but I have been in the situation where I've sat through a Benoit match. Didn't particularly enjoy it and the thought that any big bump he took was destroying his brain came up for sure. I know a lot of jokes are made and all but it really is a thin coping mechanism for the fact that the guy most of us thought of as the best technical wrestler ever would be that mental. The fascination with his son is super creepy though and not the kind of attention he deserves. When I see familiar names retweet him I just get chills tbh. How the murders didn't destroy wrestling on a mainstream level I'll never know. Feel super sorry for his son who wants to get into wrestling proper but will never be treated fairly.

Ageyev

rovert wrote: »

Then you have the whole head trauma craic which you are reminded about every time he violently lands on the back of his head doing German suplexes or on the front of his head doing the diving headbutt.

I recently saw that spot again where he dives through the ropes and takes a chairshot to the head mid-air. I cringed and looked away. Very very hard to watch that stuff after having seen the Nowinski documentary on concussions. Benoit took a ridiculous amount of chairshots to the head, often unprotected.

The autoposy on his brain showed it was in such a bad state that they were surprised how he was able to function at all.

rovert

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

I don't really watch any past stuff but I have been in the situation where I've sat through a Benoit match. Didn't particularly enjoy it and the thought that any big bump he took was destroying his brain came up for sure. I know a lot of jokes are made and all but it really is a thin coping mechanism for the fact that the guy most of us thought of as the best technical wrestler ever would be that mental. The fascination with his son is super creepy though and not the kind of attention he deserves. When I see familiar names retweet him I just get chills tbh. How the murders didn't destroy wrestling on a mainstream level I'll never know. Feel super sorry for his son who wants to get into wrestling proper but will never be treated fairly.

I'll admit to being that dickhead who retweeted David Benoit's frankly delusional tweets. It was just a reaction to him doing stuff thinking and feeling his Dad was a hero. I know we cope in our own way, he is part of these extreme circumstances and he has an uncanny resemblance to Chris so I don't really blame him for his perspective being really skewed. Me being a bit of a prick about it and him is something I should rethink.

rizzla

I don't think the big bumps or unprotected chairs shot where to blame. There's people on the indies who have taken much more.

I watched a Raw replay recently, Austin beating McMahon with the bedpan, trip down memory lane, and ICP take some pretty nasty unprotected chair shots on the card. I imagine they have taken quite a few on JCW.

Although, Nowinski, never even heard of him. Not being watching pro wrestling in awhile, will seek out this documentary. Also, never even knew his son wanted into pro wrestling, doubt he would make it but any documentary film maker should jump at following that story.

Diabhal Beag

rovert wrote: »

I'll admit to being that dickhead who retweeted David Benoit's frankly delusional tweets. It was just a reaction to him doing stuff thinking and feeling his Dad was a hero. I know we cope in our own way, he is part of these extreme circumstances and he has an uncanny resemblance to Chris so I don't really blame him for his perspective being really skewed. Me being a bit of a prick about it and him is something I should rethink.

You weren't the first to pop into my mind tbh and I've made a few Benoit jokes myself so I'm just as bad but I'd feel guilty if he thought he'd made a fanbase for himself. The lad is just in an awful situation.

Ageyev

Chris Nowinski was on the first series of Tough Enough and then on Raw for a while around 2002-2003. He retired after a number of concussions and then went into researching head trauma. The documentary is called Head Games.

rovert

rizzla wrote: »

I don't think the big bumps or unprotected chairs shot where to blame. There's people on the indies who have taken much more.

I know it is late and we are talking socially but please don't make absolute statements like this if you aren't a doctor or an expert.

Tests conducted on Benoit's brain by Julian Bailes, the head of neurosurgery at West Virginia University, showed "Benoit's brain was so severely damaged it resembled the brain of an 85-year-old Alzheimer's patient." Other tests conducted on Benoit's brain tissue revealed severe chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), and damage to all four lobes of the brain and brain stem. Bailes and his colleagues concluded that repeated concussions can lead to dementia, which can contribute to severe behavioral problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Benoit_double-murder_and_suicide

Zemuppet

I wouldn't search out Benoit's matches but I'd have no problem watching them if i was going through a good PPV like WM 20 or the 04 rumble that had multiple good matches. Some of the bumps and shots he took, were unnecessary such as the one Ageyev pointed out or knocking himself out in TLC 3.

There is no problem saying that his matches were great but it pales in comparison to the horrible actions he preformed that weekend in June 07. If people want or don't want to watch his matches that's fine but we still have to remember that he is a murderer and for that reason he'll should never get into the Hall of Fame.

On one smaller note; while I'm sure most of us are sane and level headed, does it piss anybody else off with the Benoit murder deniers and their Kevin Sullivan conspiracy stories?

Zemuppet

Ageyev wrote: »

Chris Nowinski was on the first series of Tough Enough and then on Raw for a while around 2002-2003. He retired after a number of concussions and then went into researching head trauma. The documentary is called Head Games.

I remember him taking a botched double missile dropkick from Edge and Rey in the 03 Rumble, with Edge landing on his head.

ibFoxer

rovert wrote: »

I understand and advocate separating the art from the artist. But with Benoit to be honest I do judge people who are completely grand watching his matches.

I must be in the minority here, but i find it easy to separate Chris Benoit the man and Chris Benoit the WWE star.

Sin Eater

foxerv1 wrote: »

I must be in the minority here, but i find it easy to separate Chris Benoit the man and Chris Benoit the WWE star.

I do too. I understand why others have issues, but i don't mind a Chris Benoit match at all.

That said, I'm not about to put on my Chris Benoit tshirt (The one with the x-ray of a broken bone) that I still have in the closet and stroll around town.

Liam McPoyle

I can still watch his matches and enjoy them.

Yes, it was a horrible tragedy what he did but at end of the day, in ring Benoit was not real world Benoit and I appreciate what he did in ring.

IMO, its kinda like people saying they cant enjoy The Naked Gun movies because OJ Simpson is in them, nonsensical.

Loughc

But OJ was innocent.... :pac:

thebostoncrab

I have absolutely no problem watching a Chris Benoit match. I can separate the wrestler from the real man. The horrible unforgivable acts he made on that weekend doesn't stop those matches being classics. Yes, certain spots can be uncomfortable to watch now that we know what we know about head trauma, but this isn't exclusive to Benoit matches. Look at The Rock vs Mankind at the Rumble, or Danielson vs McGuinness at Unified, or hell almost every match in ECW. It's not exclusive to Benoit.

I completely understand and get why some folks can't watch his matches, that's 100% understandable and I'd never tell someone they're wrong for feeling that. But, I can't understand why someone can "judge a person who can watch a Chris Benoit" match.

Dan_Solo

Medically I just don't believe a carefully orchestrated chairshot every few months could do that to your brain. You'd want to be the most punch drunk boxer to see that kind of damage. What nobody in wrestling wants to talk about is the mood changes and aggressiveness caused by steroids, which I reckon was a far likelier cause (plus probably some other underlying problem).
It wouldn't stop me watching Benoit certainly. He was obviously mentally unwell. It's not like listening to a Gary Glitter album.

Bounty Hunter

Business Cat wrote: »

IMO, its kinda like people saying they cant enjoy The Naked Gun movies because OJ Simpson is in them, nonsensical.

The big difference being and probably the only reason I find it difficult to watch his matches at times is with OJ you wouldnt have a commentator talking over the action in the movie constantly making references that given what has happened since are just eerie / creepy and hard not to associate with the Murders. When they talk about him being a crippler, cold hearted, methodical in his actions etc

I believe someone pointed it out but unlike OJ in his movie roles a lot of Benoits character and indeed his move set remind people of what came later. Locking in the crossface for instance (which apparently is very similar to the way his son died) and although the head trauma may not have been the only influencing factor it is very hard to see him doing the diving headbutt too. Perhaps that is the reason why I really don't like seeing anyone do that move, esp Bryan after all the injuries he has had.

BohsJohnny

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It wouldn't stop me watching Benoit certainly. He was obviously mentally unwell. It's not like listening to a Gary Glitter album.

I'm sorry but that's the weirdest comparison I've ever seen on here for all that Glitter's done and he is a evil bastard he didn't kill his Wife and Child in cold blood.

Dan_Solo

BohsJohnny wrote: »

I'm sorry but that's the weirdest comparison I've ever seen on here for all that Glitter's done and he is a evil bastard he didn't kill his Wife and Child in cold blood.

Benoit was mentally deranged. Glitter is just evil. I see a big difference.

brianregan09

I think alot of people are overlooking Eddies death too and the impact it had on Benoit , Look at the interview with Benoit the Raw after Eddie died , I know Rey got all the sympathy and stuff on TV but I think it hit Benoit harder than any one else

And the chairshots definitly affected him bollocks to anyone who said it didn't

rovert

thebostoncrab wrote: »

I completely understand and get why some folks can't watch his matches, that's 100% understandable and I'd never tell someone they're wrong for feeling that. But, I can't understand why someone can "judge a person who can watch a Chris Benoit" match.

Isn't it pretty easy? I don't know how you can compartmentalise the two. The sheer amount of stuff you have to overlook is unreal. I gave detailed reasons simply his whole persona is pretty murderous and there's too many reminders of what he did that day in his Wrestling appearances. Even adding to what I listed his trademark pose is him running his thumb across his neck! I mean come on now.

thebostoncrab

rovert wrote: »

Isn't it pretty easy? I don't know how you can compartmentalise the two. The sheer amount of stuff you have to overlook is unreal. I gave detailed reasons simply his whole persona is pretty murderous and there's too many reminders of what he did that day in his Wrestling appearances. Even adding to what I listed his trademark pose is him running his thumb across his neck! I mean come on now.

But again, it still doesn't explain how you can "judge someone" who can watch a Benoit match and separate the man from the incident. I mean it's not like people are forgetting about what happened, or forgiving what happened, we can just view the match for what it is.

Bounty Hunter

thebostoncrab wrote: »

But again, it still doesn't explain how you can "judge someone" who can watch a Benoit match and separate the man from the incident. I mean it's not like people are forgetting about what happened, or forgiving what happened, we can just view the match for what it is.

Yeah I'd agree with this despite saying almost word for word what Rovert did in my previous response. I find it hard to watch Benoit matches again for the reasons highlighted but if you can, good for you and I don't look at you in a negative light for that, I just don't think I could ever do the same.

rovert

thebostoncrab wrote: »

But again, it still doesn't explain how you can "judge someone" who can watch a Benoit match and separate the man from the incident. I mean it's not like people are forgetting about what happened, or forgiving what happened, we can just view the match for what it is.

It is Royal Rumble Sunday I don't want confrontation or aggro. Obviously not a happy subject.

As with anyone with the internet I am desensitised to a lot of stuff that I probably shouldn't be. But why/how could you be still interested in one of his matches when you are confronted by reminder after reminder of what he did? He's this "off" looking guy facially with this gross heavily roided up body. He's a walking reminder. What does it say about the person watching? "I've had my fun and that's all that matters". I just don't get the lack of thinking and/or caring you need to have to watch his matches.

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

Yeah I'd agree with this despite saying almost word for word what Rovert did in my previous response. I find it hard to watch Benoit matches again for the reasons highlighted but if you can, good for you and I don't look at you in a negative light for that, I just don't think I could ever do the same.

Maybe I should have said "question" rather than "judge". Either way if someone I knew mentioned that they were watching Benoit matches no problem I'd definitely start with the "do I actually know you" type questions.

Angron

rizzla wrote: »

I wouldn't judge criticize them myself either just wondering how?

I recently watched One Night Stand 05 and Joey Styles say's something like. Eddie has to tap or have his neck broken while in the crossface. An I was just thinking of the details from what happened, whether true or not and I was just thinking I'd rather not feel like this.

The main thing I remember from that show, commentary wise, was during the Mike Awesome/Masato Tanaka match. Awesome did a suicide dive to the outside, and Styles said something along the lines of "And it's a shame he didn't take his own life!". I felt quite awful hearing that considering Awesome committed suicide less than 2 years after that.

Now, I've watched a few Benoit matches, and I've enjoyed them for their technicality. As others have said though, I wouldn't really be going out of my way to look for matches specifically involving him, it'd just be old PPVs I'd watch that happen to have him on the card.

rossie1977

i have always been completely indifferent to the guy even after what he did.

brianregan09

Doesn't affect me either way watching him , Does that make me cold, I don't think so

Mr.Nice Guy

Business Cat wrote: »

IMO, its kinda like people saying they cant enjoy The Naked Gun movies because OJ Simpson is in them, nonsensical.

I was watching one of those movies recently and tbh I can't say I laugh at the moments he's in it. Don't know why that's 'nonsensical.' Would you be able to watch an episode of Jim'll Fix It and completely forget that the guy was such a monster?

Personally I would be in the camp that can't watch his matches back. I think it's because at the time of his death he was my favourite wrestler. The ending of WM 20 was probably my favourite moment in wrestling at the time. I must have watched it at least twenty times before what happened, but since the deaths I've not watched it once. It would be too sad.

I wouldn't judge anyone for being able to enjoy his matches. It's just something I can't do. The only people I do judge in a bad way are the types of people you see on Youtube leaving comments like, 'F*ck the WWE for not having Chris in the Hall of Fame.' It's as if these types of people can't grasp the gravity of what happened. There's no way he ever belongs in the Hall of Fame imo.

I do think the last moments of his life were the moments of a severely mentally ill man. That tempers my disgust to a certain degree because I don't think the guy who did what he did was the same man of even a few years beforehand. I sometimes see comments calling him a piece of sh*t and stuff. I understand the anger but I think it's more complex than that reaction warrants. It's just an awful, awful tragedy.

Chris Nowinski was on Jericho's podcast discussing the events and it's interesting to listen to for those that haven't heard it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK1GjE3KXns

Diabhal Beag

Wrestling is a scummy business though. I can understand and have no issue with people being able to watch Benoit matches, even enjoy them. A similar point of discussion, not on the same level of tragedy, people still rave about World Class in spite of the Von Erichs tragedy. A lot of people still talk about watching it to this day. Obviously Benoit is a different scale of tragedy and the biggest example of a ****up but shouldn't people receive similar criticism for watching a promotion with the hindsight of what happens to that family? That doesn't happen though.

I don't think there's a right or wrong. Just an issue of personal tolerance really. If you judge somebody for watching a guy like Benoit you have to look long and hard at this artform with some of it's saddest aspects and judge yourself. So many horrible people that shouldn't really be supported in any way are adored and fawned upon as legends. We're all enjoying an industry that's still pretty horrible. Looking down on others is a bit pointless.

Bounty Hunter

Really have huge respect for Chris Nowinski and the work he is doing. Good listen that (MNGs post)

bradlente

It's hard to imagine someone getting into his body of work now and enjoying it after what happened,but when you've been a fan for a long time and consider some of the matches he was involved in as the greatest you've ever seen then it's a bit different.It's not easy to omit those matches when you watched them live and remember them with rose tinted glasses.Also it takes away the credit due to those non-crazy killers that did a great job in them as well.

Ageyev

Don't know if this will work (it's blocked on mobile and you've to verify your age) but here's the documentary on concussions which I mentioned, Head Games: The Global Concussion Crisis. It is mainly focused on sports like NFL but there's a piece on wrestling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaXuqceTdYQ

bradlente

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

Wrestling is a scummy business though.

This is the be all and end all for me.Lots have died and others have sacrificed everything for the business.Many are glorified and revered because their end was far more tragic rather than horrific when you compare it to Benoit.The fact is the business has wreaked devastation on the old guard because of the way it was back in the heyday.
Things have changed significantly but when I look back at all the deaths I find it hard to separate Benoit from others.The contentious difference is that he killed in his demise.

ibFoxer

Sin Eater wrote: »

I do too. I understand why others have issues, but i don't mind a Chris Benoit match at all.

That said, I'm not about to put on my Chris Benoit tshirt (The one with the x-ray of a broken bone) that I still have in the closet and stroll around town.

I actually related the whole story to the missus this afternoon (the massive amounts of concussions, Benoit clearly suffering from a mental illness/imbalance at the time, etc) and what i said was, if it had happened 3 or 4 years previous, then i'd probably feel a lot different about the subject, but in my honest opinion i don't think the Benoit of 2007 was the same man of 2004.

As an aside, although obviously not on the same scale as a Double Murder/Suicide, i also related to her how Stone Cold had been arrested, fined, put on probation and given community service for Domestic/Spousal Abuse in the early 2000's, and how his ex-wife had claimed no fewer than 3 separate occasions of this. She wondered why a man who beat up his wife, but has all the appearances of someone who is completely in charge of their faculties, is still so popular, while a man who clearly had demons, and appears to have suffered a mental break, is condemned to hell. I understand the individual crimes are chalk and cheese, but it does make me think a little bit.

Ageyev

Well as evidenced by some comments on this thread as well as countless others across the internet since 2007 and on retro review podcasts, Benoit hasn't been 'condemned to hell' by every wrestling fan. I agree with Rovert that you have to perform serious moral acrobatics to come to the point where one can talk with a straight face about 'separating the character/wrestler' from the man who murdered a child and a woman.

You could question WWE's position though. They had no problem booking Jimmy Snuka after a woman died from head trauma in mysterious circumstances in his hotel room; they put convicted rapist Mike Tyson on their TV show and the Hall of Fame; Mae Young was far from lilly white in how she treated women wrestlers who paid to be trained by her. Their stance on including footage of Benoit seems to have softened a bit with the Network launch.

Steve Austin was asked on a call-in show last year about what he did to Debra and he refused to say anything about it.

ibFoxer

Ageyev wrote: »

You could question WWE's position though. They had no problem booking Jimmy Snuka after a woman died from head trauma in mysterious circumstances in his hotel room; they put convicted rapist Mike Tyson on their TV show and the Hall of Fame; Mae Young was far from lilly white in how she treated women wrestlers who paid to be trained by her.

Good shout. Like i said, makes me think.

Also, condemned to hell might have been a bit strong, but i'm certain everyone gets where i'm coming from.

riffmongous

Anyone else hear JBL at the RR say 'Only 2 men have ever won the RR from position number 1, one of of whom was Shawn Michaels..' Awkward!

Professional Griefer

riffmongous wrote: »

Anyone else hear JBL at the RR say 'Only 2 men have ever won the RR from position number 1, one of of whom was Shawn Michaels..' Awkward!

He also said the other was Rey tbf.

Loughc

Professional Griefer wrote: »

He also said the other was Rey tbf.

Are you sure? Because Rey entered in at number 2 the year he won.

Professional Griefer

Loughc wrote: »

Are you sure? Because Rey entered in at number 2 the year he won.

Yea I know but I'm pretty sure I heard JBL mention Rey as well.

Loughc

Professional Griefer wrote: »

Yea I know but I'm pretty sure I heard JBL mention Rey as well.

Did he? I honestly can't say I heard him mention him with regards number 1. I remember the quote below though.

riffmongous wrote: »

Anyone else hear JBL at the RR say 'Only 2 men have ever won the RR from position number 1, one of of whom was Shawn Michaels..' Awkward!

riffmongous

I remember him mentioning Ray too but I thought it came later in the show and not after the awkward silence

Professional Griefer

Yep, you're right. Just had a quick look and he only mentioned HBK.

laoch na mona

i was a big beniot fan, like others I find it difficult to watch some of his matches because I know what the trauma was leading to, but I can't get over how scummy it is for his employer to take no responsibility for what happened considering it was a result of injuries he suffered on the job.

didn't know his son wants to be a wrestler thats a **** situation to be in

rovert

laoch na mona wrote: »

i was a big beniot fan, like others I find it difficult to watch some of his matches because I know what the trauma was leading to, but I can't get over how scummy it is for his employer to take no responsibility for what happened considering it was a result of injuries he suffered on the job.

In fairness WWE does do strict concussion testing now and pretty much eliminated chairshots to the head. WWE were very shady when it came to Benoit though.

d

laoch na mona wrote: »

idn't know his son wants to be a wrestler thats a **** situation to be in

Read this if you want to know the score on that:
http://www.cagesideseats.com/indies-independent-wrestling-indy-promotions/2014/5/10/5705430/david-benoits-pro-wrestling-debut-cancelled-under-strange

I haven't heard a peep about him being a Wrestler since.

Ageyev

rovert wrote: »

In fairness WWE does do strict concussion testing now...

CM Punk wants to have a word :pac: