Dunking down of our musical heritage??

BuilderPlumber

I recently received a few brochures of upcoming events in Dublin, Cork and West of Ireland theatres and was horrified with the poor content in each of them. 2 words came up again and again: MIKE DENVER.

Once, our theatres provided us with culture: that ranged from Shakespeare plays to John B Keane plays, from classical music to blues, from musicals to the screening of international films. In other words, it gave us art and not the crassly commercial mediocre material traditional theatre goers try to get away from.

Mike Denver and his ilk got lucky. His sound is nothing but a mix of middle of the road country and western and irish folk done in a Westlifey style. Art it ain't and why he and his kind are so popular baffle me.

For some reason, there's a traditional lack of support for real music and art in Ireland. It has a lot to do with the power of politicians who own dancehalls and of the GAA who also host events and whose followers largely wallow in MOR music that has no bite.

If Elvis Presley or Frank Sinatra were Irish, they would not make it today. Luke Kelly would not get anywhere in today's Irish music scene either. Everything is given to the wrong artists and everything sounds the same today: soulless and bland. Mostly managed by people with other agendas (GAA, politics, big business) who know nothing about music, no wonder the Irish music scene sucks at present. This also has a knock on affect on other sectors of the arts. Denver and his kind have already polluted our dancehalls and hotels and now are taking over our theatres. It is time this musical cancer called modern Country and Irish Boyfolk is stopped.

Links234

Don't like Mike Denver? Don't go see his concerts then.

Sure if things were a meritocracy, then Primordial should be as big as U2, but they're not and no amount of griping will make it so.

Birneybau

Yeah. I love biscuit music, Chocolate Digestive are the best damn dunking band around.

Rigsby

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

For some reason, there's a traditional lack of support for real music and art in Ireland. It has a lot to do with the power of politicians who own dancehalls and of the GAA who also host events and whose followers largely wallow in MOR music that has no bite.

In this day and age people have access to all types of music. I doubt if dance hall's belonging to politicians have much input into what people listen to. You should give people more credit for listening to music on their own terms and because they happen to like it. Whether a given music has "bite" is purely a personal thing.

In fairness, for a small island like ours, we have a reasonably diverse music scene. There are music festivals through out the year. The Cork jazz festival has being going for decades and continues to be as popular as ever. Ireland plays host to lots of blues festivals also. Traditional Irish music is also very popular with both locals and tourists alike. Opera is catered for on a regular basis also.

If promoters feel that there is a market for a certain type of music, then obviously they will invest in it.

IMO it is possible to hear a eclectic mix of live music on a regular basis. I can only speak for Dublin, but I'm sure it is the same for the other larger Irish cities also.

It is just a case of seeking it out.

Anesthetize

Everything's been rubbish since Altar of Plagues split up

fiachr_a

Too young to remember but it was just as dumbed down in the 1960s with those show bands.

Herb Powell

All your post says to me is you have no involvement in the Irish music scene at the moment. We have a **** ton of fantastic bands. There's great gigs every week, every month. And they draw crowds. People DO support music in Ireland, and music is very much apprecited in this country. Go somewhere like Germany, you'll notice a difference fairly quickly. Yes, they have the population to support bigger things, but the scenes are incomparible.

Just because you are jaded or uninvolved, just not mean the scene is dead.

BuilderPlumber

Herb Powell wrote: »

All your post says to me is you have no involvement in the Irish music scene at the moment. We have a **** ton of fantastic bands. There's great gigs every week, every month. And they draw crowds. People DO support music in Ireland, and music is very much apprecited in this country. Go somewhere like Germany, you'll notice a difference fairly quickly. Yes, they have the population to support bigger things, but the scenes are incomparible.

Just because you are jaded or uninvolved, just not mean the scene is dead.

I am not involved in the music industry but collect and listen to music of all kinds and go to good gigs. I am friendly with bands and singers who all say the same things about the obstacles to becoming a musician in this country. First of all, yes of course Irish people support music and there's an audience there for all kinds. But the problem lies with those in charge of music promotion who are stopping many from progressing to their full potential. The 3 main things wrong in Ireland are:

1. The wrong people in the media promote music: The likes of Tubridy have extremely limited musical knowledge but yet are presiding over the very shows that are supposed to promote new and up and coming acts.
2. The predominance of certain types of music. Anything Louis Walsh gets priority and all them awful so-called country acts like Mike Denver. This stuff is so mediocre and is marketed by people who don't know anything about country music. Because this stuff is not country music.
3. The costs. With the lack of support from the mainstream, many proper musicians turn to self promoted concerts and festivals. I have seen over the years how expensive these are. Insurance is a killer for starters, then there's the advertising and then there's everything else. While Tubridy is talking to some non-musician/non-singer like Denver, talented musicians and singers have to do it on their own without any support whatsoever. This is what is so unfair.

Rigsby

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

This is what is so unfair.

Since when was the music industry ever anything else but... "unfair" ?

Nothing new there.

karaokeman

You keep going on about Mike Denver and how Louis Walsh acts always get priority in the marketing of Irish music. This is not true. For instance Denver isn't managed by Louis Walsh, and neither is the current biggest selling Irish artist (Hozier).

Actually when was the last time an act managed by Louis Walsh besides Westlife was dominating the market? Boyzone went on to mediocre success since their reformation, as has Shane Filan in his solo ventures. Wonderland and Jedward came and faded pretty quick. Maybe Hometown recently, but as with Union J they could disappear off the face of mainstream radio in the next few months.

There's also more than just Tubridy in the media. What about Brendan O' Connor? He let Jape (great electronic band) appear on the last Saturday Night Show. Just because these guys aren't tearing up the charts doesn't mean they're unrepresentative of Irish musical heritage.

BuilderPlumber

karaokeman wrote: »

You keep going on about Mike Denver and how Louis Walsh acts always get priority in the marketing of Irish music. This is not true. For instance Denver isn't managed by Louis Walsh, and neither is the current biggest selling Irish artist (Hozier).

Actually when was the last time an act managed by Louis Walsh besides Westlife was dominating the market? Boyzone went on to mediocre success since their reformation, as has Shane Filan in his solo ventures. Wonderland and Jedward came and faded pretty quick. Maybe Hometown recently, but as with Union J they could disappear off the face of mainstream radio in the next few months.

There's also more than just Tubridy in the media. What about Brendan O' Connor? He let Jape (great electronic band) appear on the last Saturday Night Show. Just because these guys aren't tearing up the charts doesn't mean they're unrepresentative of Irish musical heritage.

They get the biggest exposure on TV for sure. True, despite this, they are not having top hits. Hozier is a great artist and has got to where he is the hard way: by himself. Hozier, Imelda May and others are the occasional good artist who gets over all the obstacles and gets where they should be.

Denver is not managed by LW I am aware but represents the other half of what the media are obsessed with: watered down country music with a boyband feel. There are 100s of great country singers and bands out there doing bluegrass, blues and swing styles but they don't get anywhere because of the massive blockage to them that is current country and irish boyfolk music. Unfortunately, music that is NOT ART like country and irish boyfolk gets all the breaks. The arts industry in general is underfunded and undersupported by recent governments.

Brendan O'Connor has a much better show than Tubridy I am also aware. He is more adventurous and does much better with a show that is shorter, less famous and less funded.

Jedward show us the disposable attitude of the media. They media were all over them in 2009-2012 but because they did not perform as well as expected in their second Eurovision outing, are dropped immediately post-May 2012.

Herb Powell

I think the major thing about Ireland is, it's small. For a band to do a proper tour, they have to leave the island really. Compared to somewhere like the USA where a band has 330ish million people and the best part of an entire continent to work with, we're just not on the same scale. Even the UK is orders of magnitude bigger in this regard. So tbh, with this in mind, the music produced here is fuccking incredible imo, really some of the best in the world, with an extremely supportive listnership. But at the end of the day it's a numbers game, which we just cannot realistically win.

ceegee

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

They get the biggest exposure on TV for sure. True, despite this, they are not having top hits. Hozier is a great artist and has got to where he is the hard way: by himself. Hozier, Imelda May and others are the occasional good artist who gets over all the obstacles and gets where they should be.

Denver is not managed by LW I am aware but represents the other half of what the media are obsessed with: watered down country music with a boyband feel. There are 100s of great country singers and bands out there doing bluegrass, blues and swing styles but they don't get anywhere because of the massive blockage to them that is current country and irish boyfolk music. Unfortunately, music that is NOT ART like country and irish boyfolk gets all the breaks. The arts industry in general is underfunded and undersupported by recent governments.

Brendan O'Connor has a much better show than Tubridy I am also aware. He is more adventurous and does much better with a show that is shorter, less famous and less funded.

Jedward show us the disposable attitude of the media. They media were all over them in 2009-2012 but because they did not perform as well as expected in their second Eurovision outing, are dropped immediately post-May 2012.

Bands playing bluegrass etc get little coverage because the vast majority of the public have no interest in it. The media will provide coverage for the acts which draw an audience, and thus ad revenue, for some reason Mike Denver and his ilk fulfill this criteria with a large section of the Irish public.

Birneybau

karaokeman wrote: »

You keep going on about Mike Denver and how Louis Walsh acts always get priority in the marketing of Irish music. This is not true. For instance Denver isn't managed by Louis Walsh, and neither is the current biggest selling Irish artist (Hozier).

Actually when was the last time an act managed by Louis Walsh besides Westlife was dominating the market? Boyzone went on to mediocre success since their reformation, as has Shane Filan in his solo ventures. Wonderland and Jedward came and faded pretty quick. Maybe Hometown recently, but as with Union J they could disappear off the face of mainstream radio in the next few months.

There's also more than just Tubridy in the media. What about Brendan O' Connor? He let Jape (great electronic band) appear on the last Saturday Night Show. Just because these guys aren't tearing up the charts doesn't mean they're unrepresentative of Irish musical heritage.

Hozier is managed by Caroline Desmond, of MCD and Childline concert, so, she has a fair bit of power behind her.

BuilderPlumber

ceegee wrote: »

Bands playing bluegrass etc get little coverage because the vast majority of the public have no interest in it. The media will provide coverage for the acts which draw an audience, and thus ad revenue, for some reason Mike Denver and his ilk fulfill this criteria with a large section of the Irish public.

The vast majority of people have no interest in certain types of music not because they have no interest in it but because they don't even know it is there !!!!! This is because it is not promoted, not heard and not even known about. Many promoters know absolutely nothing about music and just know marketing and can market the first ould stuff to come to mind.

A good salesman can sell anything no matter how bad. Louis Walsh is excellent at what he does even if what he sells is one very similar band after another. Same with the management of the godawful country and irish stuff: it is awful music but very well promoted. I KNOW good music could be promoted in much the same way.

However, some music forms will always be more ART than ENTERTAINMENT too. Classical and Opera come to mind here. Such music I enjoy very much but always have a limited but dedicated audience. This should be promoted in different ways.

BuilderPlumber

Birneybau wrote: »

Hozier is managed by Caroline Desmond, of MCD and Childline concert, so, she has a fair bit of power behind her.

That is true. Hozier is a very good artist but again what he does (largely blues and soul based music) is not known by 99% of the public but it shows that when someone decides to support it, the people like it and respond positively.

Rigsby

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

The vast majority of people have no interest in certain types of music not because they have no interest in it but because they don't even know it is there !!!!!

With the advent of today's technology and the easy access to unlimited amounts of ALL types of music, there is no excuse for not knowing, or for relying on promoters for information.

People who dont know, are either too lazy to do some research for themselves, or are not interested enough anyway to bother.

Having said the above, there will always be "minority interest" music.

BuilderPlumber

Rigsby wrote: »

With the advent of today's technology and the easy access to unlimited amounts of ALL types of music, there is no excuse for not knowing, or for relying on promoters for information.

People who dont know, are either too lazy to do some research for themselves, or are not interested enough anyway to bother.

Having said the above, there will always be "minority interest" music.

REAL music fans are also far and few between. A good point is many listen to whatever is easiest accessed and don't go beyond this. As a big fan of music, I delve deeper and know from all the sources now available a load of different types of music.

Any as said promoters can be very clever and are very good at marketing things. Louis Walsh for example can promote boy and girl bands to appeal to the teens and do it very well.

Rigsby

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

REAL music fans are also far and few between. A good point is many listen to whatever is easiest accessed and don't go beyond this. As a big fan of music, I delve deeper and know from all the sources now available a load of different types of music.

Any as said promoters can be very clever and are very good at marketing things. Louis Walsh for example can promote boy and girl bands to appeal to the teens and do it very well.

I accept your point, but you cant blame promoters or anyone else for cashing in on the niche that is there with people who have no particular interest in music and are willing to let themselves be (..albeit blindly..) lead. As we all now too well, the music industry is exactly that...an industry and will try to make money in whatever way they can. I think it is a case of "dont shoot the messenger". Promoters are simply providing a wanted "commodity".

"Real" music is there for people who wish to listen to it.

BuilderPlumber

Rigsby wrote: »

I accept your point, but you cant blame promoters or anyone else for cashing in on the niche that is there with people who have no particular interest in music and are willing to let themselves be (..albeit blindly..) lead. As we all now too well, the music industry is exactly that...an industry and will try to make money in whatever way they can. I think it is a case of "dont shoot the messenger". Promoters are simply providing a wanted "commodity".

"Real" music is there for people who wish to listen to it.

And often, music comes second. Songs have been used to promote fashion, sport, etc. Remember Italia 90 and Nessun Dorma? Suddenly, soccer fans were adding Pavarotti to their list of new favorite artists!

With boybands and teenidols, it is how they look that matters. I notice that ever since Elvis, hearthtrob singers have modelled their look on him. Notable modern example is Justin Bieber. One issue though is the diversity of the music that Elvis recorded is not replicated!

I think with this Irish country stuff I hate that it is promoted for dances mainly. The problem with dances is that the music is secondary to the dancing. Actually, tertiary because there's the drink too! The music has to be uptempo or waltzy and that's all that matters! People go to these dances, dance and drink but often don't remember much about what the band were singing.

Rigsby

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

And often, music comes second. Songs have been used to promote fashion, sport, etc. Remember Italia 90 and Nessun Dorma? Suddenly, soccer fans were adding Pavarotti to their list of new favorite artists!

With boybands and teenidols, it is how they look that matters. I notice that ever since Elvis, hearthtrob singers have modelled their look on him. Notable modern example is Justin Bieber. One issue though is the diversity of the music that Elvis recorded is not replicated!

I think with this Irish country stuff I hate that it is promoted for dances mainly. The problem with dances is that the music is secondary to the dancing. Actually, tertiary because there's the drink too! The music has to be uptempo or waltzy and that's all that matters! People go to these dances, dance and drink but often don't remember much about what the band were singing.

My attitude towards music is .."to each their own.." People enjoy it and commercially use it in ways that suit them.

Personally, I have never liked Irish country music. However, people would not go to these dances unless they thought they were going to enjoy themselves. They go to dance and have a good time and generally it is waltz type or uptempo music that is required. Regardless of whether the music is primary or secondary, it forms an essential part of the night's enjoyment. It does not matter if they dont remember what the band were singing. It is the atmosphere which the music creates, that they remember. All that matters is that they had a good time with the help of some music. Good luck to them I say.

As for music being associated with fashion and "boy bands," this has always been the case and always will be, because music helps to sell commodities. Nothing wrong with Pavarotti (and/or opera in general) gaining some extra fans by way of being publicized by soccer.

People (both fans and musicians) have always "borrowed" from artists that they like or inspire them. Jazz would not have evolved to where it is today if musicians had not "borrowed" some part of what their predecessors were playing, and used it to their own end. There are few musicians (either alive or dead) who can claim to have developed their own music without being influenced in some way by another musician(s) material.

Young fans like to imitate their idols in the way they dress and wear their hair etc. This is a natural part of the teenage years. Again, I dont see any problem here.

Music is there is be enjoyed in whatever way people deem suitable. You or I have no right to judge what is the "right" or "wrong" way to do this.

As I said at the very start......to each their own.

BuilderPlumber

Rigsby wrote: »

My attitude towards music is .."to each their own.." People enjoy it and commercially use it in ways that suit them.

Personally, I have never liked Irish country music. However, people would not go to these dances unless they thought they were going to enjoy themselves. They go to dance and have a good time and generally it is waltz type or uptempo music that is required. Regardless of whether the music is primary or secondary, it forms an essential part of the night's enjoyment. It does not matter if they dont remember what the band were singing. It is the atmosphere which the music creates, that they remember. All that matters is that they had a good time with the help of some music. Good luck to them I say.

As for music being associated with fashion and "boy bands," this has always been the case and always will be, because music helps to sell commodities. Nothing wrong with Pavarotti (and/or opera in general) gaining some extra fans by way of being publicized by soccer.

People (both fans and musicians) have always "borrowed" from artists that they like or inspire them. Jazz would not have evolved to where it is today if musicians had not "borrowed" some part of what their predecessors were playing, and used it to their own end. There are few musicians (either alive or dead) who can claim to have developed their own music without being influenced in some way by another musician(s) material.

Young fans like to imitate their idols in the way they dress and wear their hair etc. This is a natural part of the teenage years. Again, I dont see any problem here.

Music is there is be enjoyed in whatever way people deem suitable. You or I have no right to judge what is the "right" or "wrong" way to do this.

As I said at the very start......to each their own.

I understand all this. Some interesting points made here:

Borrowing/Influence: Yes, any musician or singer who does not claim to be influenced by someone or has sung others' songs is not true to his/her self. Yes, I have seen and met several singer/songwriters who refuse to sing others' material and ultimately come across as quite boring eventually. Mixing styles and influences is what always makes music interesting. But that's not meaning copycat clones either: that's the other extreme.

Irish 'country' music: I abhor modern Irish country music and see no value in it. To me, it is like someone buys a 20 greatest country hits CD, learns a few songs and then hires a band and gets someone to promote them. They reach dizzying levels of fame and it is unfair. They are to country what these awful Elvis imitators who buy an Elvis CD, dress up in awful wigs, and who 100% LACK Elvis' bluesy vocal style and also Elvis' good looks.

To each his own: If people want to go and listen to this awful Irish country music, that is grand. And yes a night out is good and anything that's good for business is good. My point is that other types of music deserve exposure too. Anyone who knows country music know this stuff is not it. Music with a bit of substance needs a break too. And if they did, they'd be getting the crowds too. Like it or not, the likes of Ryan Tubridy (whose musical knowledge is mediocre/poor at best) have a lot of clout and are the prime time TV and radio people. I notice more minor presenters are kept that way despite having a greater musical knowledge.

Sure, bad Irish country will always be with us and will always have fans. But there are many fans of jazz, blues, swing, etc. who would like something too. Yes, Dublin has all these catered for but not all of us can go to Dublin.

Products/Events/Music: I am not complaining about Italia 90 or the use of Elvis' looks to in both cases promote quality music. Opera and blues based rock were done a massive favour.

Rigsby

We seem to be going around in circles here. You made most of the above points in your earlier posts, and I addressed them.

I agree that it is unfair that some music does not get the publicity it deserves. Ireland is not the only country who is guilty of this. In the 40's, jazz and blues musicians were not alone lacking the publicity they deserved, but were going hungry because they could not scrape a living from playing. Both jazz and blues is still a minority interest in the USA to this day. Granted, this does not make it right. However, up and coming bands/musicians never had it better in this day and age when it comes to promoting themselves, such is the technology at their disposal.