Abolish cash fares on Dublin Bus

stehyl15

Anyone else think that cash fares should completly abolished on dublin bus and be outsoursed by leap cards and 90 minute tickets (which should be valid on dart/bus/luas aimed not so often transport users) and have a standard charge at €1.50 and avaible at all spar/centra and newsagents. I think it speed up getting on/off buses and would be of benefit to drivers because theyre job is too drive not as ticket salemen. It works on the continent why shouln't work in Ireland

jimmii

Often thought the same. I guess the thing most people think is why should some doing a three stop short trip pay the same as an outer suburban 1.5 hour trip.

hfallada

People showing their free travel cards takes up a lot more time than saying €1.95 please on a leap card. I cant understand why some OAPs wait until the bus driver personally acknowledges their bus pass.

The fact Dublin bus fares are so hard to understand doesnt happy. There is no zones like most European city buses. A simplier fare system like one for within the canal, another within the M50 and a long distance outside the M50 would make more sense.

But with the tax back and better value fares on leap card. The only reason why people still pay with cash is stupidity.

odyssey06

I'm going to say no for the moment, because I'm not convinced of the abililty of Dublin Bus adequately setup an alternative to cater for the needs of tourists, day visitors etc
Most of the comments seem to be assuming the only people using Dublin Bus are residents of Dublin City.

Also, maybe it's the buses I used, but during rush hour I didn't see much slowness from the cash usage cos typically at least half the people are swiping in any case. So there's two flows of people going on.

If anything, forcing everything onto the LEAP e.g. by abolishing Travel 90 tickets and other handy prepaid tickets, could slow things down as they have to go to the driver.

I don't see any qualitiative difference between LEAP cards and paying by cash that somehow makes the driver any less of a ticket salesman. In one he is putting a digital journey ticket on your LEAP card, on the other, you get a physical ticket. A LEAP card isn't a ticket, necessarily.

Having a swipe on swipe off for the LEAP as you enter and exit the bus, thereby eliminating the need to engage the driver, would be better.

jimmii

odyssey06 wrote: »

I'm going to say no for the moment, because I'm not convinced of the abililty of Dublin Bus adequately setup an alternative to cater for the needs of tourists, day visitors etc
Most of the comments seem to be assuming the only people using Dublin Bus are residents of Dublin City.

Also, maybe it's the buses I used, but during rush hour I didn't see much slowness from the cash usage cos typically at least half the people are swiping in any case. So there's two flows of people going on.

If anything, forcing everything onto the LEAP e.g. by abolishing Travel 90 tickets and other handy prepaid tickets, could slow things down as they have to go to the driver.

I don't see any qualitiative difference between LEAP cards and paying by cash that somehow makes the driver any less of a ticket salesman. In one he is putting a digital journey ticket on your LEAP card, on the other, you get a physical ticket. A LEAP card isn't a ticket, necessarily.

Having a swipe on swipe off for the LEAP as you enter and exit the bus, thereby eliminating the need to engage the driver, would be better.

Surely a flat fare is easier to understand for tourists than having to work out how many zones they are going through to figure how much they need to pay. If they are from Europe its probably going to be a system they are more used to as well.

Agree on the swipe in swipe off for leap would quicken things up alright.

odyssey06

jimmii wrote: »

Surely a flat fare is easier to understand for tourists than having to work out how many zones they are going through to figure how much they need to pay. If they are from Europe its probably going to be a system they are more used to as well.

But then maybe the real suggestion here is about the benefits of a flat fare?
Driver always has to punch 1 fare. No selecton involved. Leap card users can swipe, no driver interaction\delay.

To me, a standard or flat fare seems to have much greater efficiencies than getting rid of the last resort ability to pay by cash? Plus, paying a flat fare by cash that's a nice round number like 1.50e or 2e is going to be faster than the current system.

moxin

The queueing with a Leap card is the most stupidest thing ever, there has been zero elimination of queues, have to queue myself each time. As tag on/off is not there, how about adding an extra swipe machine for "short"(less than 13 stages) Leap users beside the long journey swipe machine?

Chris_5339762

Flat fare, swipe card on a reader as you enter the bus. No driver interaction. Why this hasn't been done (apart from money reasons) is mind boggling.

garhjw

Unions won't go for change unless it means their already overpaid members get paid more

Slippin Jimmy

In theory it's a great idea. But I think it would cause more hassle than it's worth. Most people still pay by cash rather than using leap. Even when the old prepaid tickets were in people still preferred to pay by cash.

K.Flyer

It might be a "great idea" for regular users, but what about those who only have a need to use a bus on an odd occasion, maybe once or twice a year.
Any of the times where I have needed to use a bus it was from a remote point where walking was too far and a taxi would have been too expensive.

Slydice

The biggest queue maker in my experience of Dublin Bus has been the leap card.

Used to be Cash Fares and Dublin Bus tickets.
- Dublin Bus Tickets would beep through fairly fast.
- Drivers would be ready on the button to do a cash fare. Usually fast enough if the person had their fare ready.

Now it's Cash Fares and Leap Card and the Dublin Bus tickets (now on Leap Card). So it's changed to:
- Dublin Bus Tickets (on leap card) still beep through fairly fast.
- Drivers ready on the button to do a cash fare. Usually fast enough if the person has their fare ready.
- Drivers ready on the button to do a leap fare. Slow because even if the driver is fast, the terminal seems to be slow in processing it.

strandroad

I don't think any of this can be helped as long as the underlying rule remains - everyone needs to go through one door and in most cases take one driver's time. Dwelling times are atrocious and bus journeys sluggish because of that - compare with the continent where multiple doors and validators are used with no involvement from the driver so it only takes a blink to load/unload a bus.
What is it modelled on? London?

stehyl15

K.Flyer wrote: »

It might be a "great idea" for regular users, but what about those who only have a need to use a bus on an odd occasion, maybe once or twice a year.
Any of the times where I have needed to use a bus it was from a remote point where walking was too far and a taxi would have been too expensive.

You should buy a ticket in the shop

Peregrine

Slydice wrote: »

- Drivers ready on the button to do a leap fare. Slow because even if the driver is fast, the terminal seems to be slow in processing it.

Dublin Bus ticket machine is stone age technology. It doesn't update stops automatically hence the delay.

mhge wrote: »

I don't think any of this can be helped as long as the underlying rule remains - everyone needs to go through one door and in most cases take one driver's time. Dwelling times are atrocious and bus journeys sluggish because of that - compare with the continent where multiple doors and validators are used with no involvement from the driver so it only takes a blink to load/unload a bus.
What is it modelled on? London?

When the last of the SGs are delivered, Dublin Bus will have 230 buses with centre doors. They'll start taking delivery of another 90 buses from the second half of this year. So, after that delivery, one third of the fleet will have centre doors. And there's talk of a huge order for next year.

The drivers are supposed to use the centre doors for alighting passengers but I find that some drivers use them while most don't (I only have experience with Harristown and Phibsborough drivers). Because of this(and despite the announcements directing people to use the centre doors), most people are reluctant and just head straight to front door. Then there are the people who block the centre doors by standing in front of them. If you see drivers not using the centre doors as they were intended to be, I'd urge you to make a complaint.

Ideally, it should be a tag on/off system where boarding passengers with Leap cards tag on at the front while alighting passengers tag off at the centre doors and only passengers paying by cash interact with the driver. I remember reading that the GTs were pre-wired for installing card readers near the centre doors.

strandroad

Passengers could also board through centre door and tag on/validate there, it's pretty standard elsewhere after all. This whole rigmarole at the front takes so long and makes Dublin buses so sluggish.

For visitors it would be way easier to have a simple 3 zone system and board ticket in hand, rather than to negotiate their route and fare with the driver every time, especially if they have trouble with English, or indeed with Dub accents... A group of tourists can take several minutes to board.

Slippin Jimmy

mhge wrote: »

Passengers could also board through centre door and tag on/validate there, it's pretty standard elsewhere after all. This whole rigmarole at the front takes so long and makes Dublin buses so sluggish.

For visitors it would be way easier to have a simple 3 zone system and board ticket in hand, rather than to negotiate their route and fare with the driver every time, especially if they have trouble with English, or indeed with Dub accents... A group of tourists can take several minutes to board.

If they were to use the middle doors for boarding it would be easier for people to avoid tagging on. A lot of stops in the city centre are blocked as it is allowing front door entry and exit only.

A group of tourists takes several minutes to board no matter what country you are in. They'd still have to enquire about which stop is theirs.

strandroad

Duffff-Man wrote: »

If they were to use the middle doors for boarding it would be easier for people to avoid tagging on. A lot of stops in the city centre are blocked as it is allowing front door entry and exit only.

That's how it works elsewhere though. They rely on inspectors more I suppose, but the upside is next to no dwelling time.

A group of tourists takes several minutes to board no matter what country you are in. They'd still have to enquire about which stop is theirs.

With three simple zones they would simply buy tickets in advance and validate inside the bus (any door). And they normally have maps and announcements to know when to alight. Again it works elsewhere - it's a Dublin thing to have to involve the driver in the process at all!

Slippin Jimmy

mhge wrote: »

That's how it works elsewhere though. They rely on inspectors more I suppose, but the upside is next to no dwelling time.



With three simple zones they would simply buy tickets in advance and validate inside the bus (any door). And they normally have maps and announcements to know when to alight. Again it works elsewhere - it's a Dublin thing to have to involve the driver in the process at all!

They'd have to heavily rely on inspectors which are a rare sight even now. Just because it works elsewhere it doesn't mean it will work here. If a bus was to use the middle doors at every stop, it would take longer for the bus to get into position than the "dwelling" time.

Even with the announcements they have now, you regularly see tourists and people not familiar with the route conversing with the driver.

The only way to get people to switch to leap is to increase cash fares and leave leap remain as is. Also upgrading the machines on the bus to allow smoother transactions.

strandroad

How would the position be any different? I don't recall multi-door buses performing any special manouvers, and they may have three or four doors in use. Buses don't spend much time at stops at all in this system, it's basically open all doors - people step out and in - close doors and go, while they tag on in their own time. No clogging the traffic the way buses do now.

It's just one of these weird things that make DB so awkward to use. I spent years giving it a chance but then I just gave up, the way the system is designed it just can't be made efficient. And I was on so-called "good" routes where at least the frequency was okayish...

Lau2976

The main issue with abolishing cash fares is casual users IMO. There are plenty of stops further out if the city that aren't situated at a shop so there would be nowhere to purchase a ticket. Why would someone who uses the bus maybe two, three times a year carry around a leap card all the time? Other cities have less traffic too IMO so you have a higher number of people using buses on a regular basis.

Slippin Jimmy

mhge wrote: »

How would the position be any different? I don't recall multi-door buses performing any special manouvers, and they may have three or four doors in use. Buses don't spend much time at stops at all in this system, it's basically open all doors - people step out and in - close doors and go, while they tag on in their own time. No clogging the traffic the way buses do now.

Take Suffolk street as an example. There can often be three or four buses queuing for one stop. The drivers usually load the buses away from the stops if they can. Now if you were to use the middle doors, it would require the bus being in perfect alignment with the footpath. So you would need to wait for the first bus to load, before the second could pull in and the same until the stop is cleared. If the middle doors where used in Suffolk street the place would back up. It's not possible to use the middle doors at a lot of stops in the city centre as it is, never minding using them for loading passengers.

strandroad

They wouldn't have to wait if buses in front could "open all doors-load-go" without the driver bottleneck, that's the point. Even if they had to wait once or twice, it would still be insignificant in comparison to gaining a lot of time at every boarding stop along the route - one really needs to experience another bus system to see how slow it makes DB... Who made the driver a newsagents, inspector and tourist office in one?

Peregrine

mhge wrote: »

How would the position be any different? I don't recall multi-door buses performing any special manouvers, and they may have three or four doors in use. Buses don't spend much time at stops at all in this system, it's basically open all doors - people step out and in - close doors and go, while they tag on in their own time. No clogging the traffic the way buses do now.

It's just one of these weird things that make DB so awkward to use. I spent years giving it a chance but then I just gave up, the way the system is designed it just can't be made efficient. And I was on so-called "good" routes where at least the frequency was okayish...

The 3-4 door system on BRTs or normal articulate buses you're talking about is completely different to the dual door system we can use on double deckers. With just two doors, I don't really see the point in using both doors for boarding and alighting. It's just messy and I don't see how it saves any time.

mhge wrote: »

one really needs to experience another bus system to see how slow it makes DB...

We get it, you're well travelled. Forget that, please explain to me how passengers boarding and alighting through different doors (when possible) is slower than passengers alighting through both doors followed by passengers boarding through both doors. It's the exact same, just more organised.

strandroad

Nim wrote: »

The 3-4 door system on BRTs or normal articulate buses you're talking about is completely different to the dual door system we can use on double deckers. With just two doors, I don't really see the point in using both doors for boarding and alighting. It's just messy and I don't see how it saves any time.

If no one has to interact with the driver and you double the number of doors (or triple even, with the middle one being more convenient with wider passage) it would save plenty...

Slippin Jimmy

mhge wrote: »

They wouldn't have to wait if buses in front could "open all doors-load-go" without the driver bottleneck, that's the point. Even if they had to wait once or twice, it would still be insignificant in comparison to gaining a lot of time at every boarding stop along the route - one really needs to experience another bus system to see how slow it makes DB... Who made the driver a newsagents, inspector and tourist office in one?

It's good customer service and common decency to point tourists in the right direction. The city is too congested to use double doors. It wouldn't save anytime loading/unloading in the city. Outside the city there's hardly any need for it.

For your idea to work you would need:
Better designed stops
Customer education
Wider roads (again Suffolk St)
Investment in better ticket machines
Ticket inspectors on most buses

Slippin Jimmy

mhge wrote: »

If no one has to interact with the driver and you double the number of doors (or triple even, with the middle one being more convenient with wider passage) it would save plenty...

It would also reduce passenger seating/standing room.

strandroad

I get that, Dublin is different. Comes up every time. And yet it works elsewhere, including old congested cities.

Slippin Jimmy

mhge wrote: »

I get that, Dublin is different. Comes up every time. And yet it works elsewhere, including old congested cities.

That have better infrastructure and road design, unlike dublin. It won't save any time.

strandroad

Duffff-Man wrote: »

It would also reduce passenger seating/standing room.

I doubt that, since doors are used anyway, it's just that now passengers are unnecesarily funneled between them via the driver.

Slippin Jimmy

mhge wrote: »

I doubt that, since doors are used anyway, it's just that now passengers are unnecesarily funneled between them via the driver.

So where are passengers supposed to sit or stand if the was not two, but three doors?

LionelNashe

I think half-measures are not the way. We should seriously look at making public transport free for Dublin Bus, Dart, Commuter trains, and any other local services in the towns and cities around the country. It would mean less pollution and congestion, more employment for bus and train staff, and no costs for handling cash and tickets.

Peregrine

mhge wrote: »

If no one has to interact with the driver and you double the number of doors (or triple even, with the middle one being more convenient with wider passage) it would save plenty...

You don't seem to understand. This is Dublin. The DB is fleet is made up entirely of double deckers(and the three WVs), not articulates.



I'd like to see you put 3 or 4 doors on that..

Articulated buses don't really suit most Dublin Bus routes. There are certain corridors where BRT could be used and it's already being planned.

strandroad

Duffff-Man wrote: »

So where are passengers supposed to sit or stand if the was not two, but three doors?

DB do not have three doors?
But with the two doors a bus has, currently a passenger is funneled from the front lining up for the one interaction point, going to the back/upper deck to sit down and then alighting through middle door (if lucky), or back again to the front where all others wait to board.
Surely it would be much quicker if they could tag on through middle door, and alight through the same door. No lining up for the driver, two boarding/alighting streams instead of one, and no unnecessary forced wandering inside the vehicle.

Slippin Jimmy

mhge wrote: »

DB do not have three doors?
But with the two doors a bus has, currently a passenger is funneled from the front lining up for the one interaction point, going to the back/upper deck to sit down and then alighting through middle door (if lucky), or back again to the front where all others wait to board.
Surely it would be much quicker if they could tag on through middle door, and alight through the same door. No lining up for the driver, two boarding/alighting streams instead of one, and no unnecessary forced wandering inside the vehicle.

You suggested three or four doors. Again, if these were in place where would you like passengers to sit or stand?

strandroad

Nim wrote: »

You don't seem to understand. This is Dublin. The DB is fleet is made up entirely of double deckers(and the three WVs), not articulates.



I'd like to see you put 3 or 4 doors on that..

You don't get my point I'm afraid. Currently you have only one door to board. If you use both, you double the capacity (or possibly triple, since the middle door is not limited by the narrow passage the front door has).

VG31

Nim wrote: »

If you see drivers not using the centre doors as they were intended to be, I'd urge you to make a complaint.

If I did that I did that I'd be sending in a complaint ever 1-2 days!

Slippin Jimmy

mhge wrote: »

You don't get my point I'm afraid. Currently you have only one door to board. If you use both, you double the capacity (or possibly triple, since the middle door is not limited by the narrow passage the front door has).

How could you double or triple capacity with more doors????

Peregrine

mhge, have you ever been on a Dublin Bus?

mhge wrote: »

Surely it would be much quicker if they could tag on through middle door, and alight through the same door. No lining up for the driver, two boarding/alighting streams instead of one, and no unnecessary forced wandering inside the vehicle.

Except the boarding passengers at both doors would have to wait til the passengers alight whereas if you used one door for boarding and one for alighting (provided there's space at the bus stop), passengers could board and alight simultaneously. They both take the same amount of time, one is just more organised.

mhge wrote: »

You don't get my point I'm afraid. Currently you have only one door to board. If you use both, you double the capacity (or possibly triple, since the middle door is not limited by the narrow passage the front door has).

I'm afraid it's you who don't get the point. Every single one of posts were about using both doors on the GTs and SGs.

Triple doors on a 11 metre bus??

Even the VTs aren't long enough for three doors.

strandroad

Duffff-Man wrote: »

How could you double or triple capacity with more doors????

As in throughput. 20 passengers take X time to board through one door, and half of that through two (or even less, if the second on is wider).

VG31

At the moment passengers and drivers can't seem to get their heads around using the centre doors. Using the front doors ONLY for entry and the back doors only for exit is enough. The tag-on, tag-off system would work then.
If that works entry through the back door could be considered but certainly not now.

Slippin Jimmy

Duffff-Man wrote: »

How could you double or triple capacity with more doors????

capacity

1.
the maximum amount that something can contain.
"the capacity of the freezer is 1.1 cubic feet"

Duffff-Man wrote: »

You suggested three or four doors. Again, if these were in place where would you like passengers to sit or stand?

Care to answer my question for the third time?

strandroad

Nim wrote: »

mhge, have you ever been on a Dublin Bus?



Except the boarding passengers at both doors would have to wait til the passengers alight whereas if you used one door for boarding and one for alighting (provided there's space at the bus stop), passengers could board and alight simultaneously. They both take the same amount of time, one is just more organised.

I should ask you if *you* were ever on a DB if you call it organised Not every stop has people doing both, and even if it has, surely it's better if they can choose a more convenient door for them rather than to be forced to walk around?

I'm afraid it's you who don't get the point. Every single one of posts were about using both doors on the GTs and SGs.

Triple doors on a 11 metre bus??

Even the VTs aren't long enough for three doors.

Who says triple doors?
I only say that if you used the middle door for boarding, it would at least double (or perhaps even triple, since it's wider) the number of people boarding within a certain time.

Gavin "shels"

What needs to be stopped is shops now charging 50c to top up your leap card first and foremost! A bad deterrent!

VG31

Nim wrote: »

Triple doors on a 11 metre bus??

Even the VTs aren't long enough for three doors.

You probably could fit three doors on an Enviro 500 as the MAN Lion's City DDs in Berlin have three doors and they are only about 1m longer. They also have a big spiral staircase at the very back so people going upstairs use the front stairway and people going down use the back one (and the third door is directly opposite it).

LeinsterDub

Duffff-Man wrote: »

capacity

1.
the maximum amount that something can contain.
"the capacity of the freezer is 1.1 cubic feet"




Care to answer my question for the third time?

They mean decrease dwell time

LionelNashe

VG31 wrote: »

At the moment passengers and drivers can't seem to get their heads around using the centre doors. Using the front doors ONLY for entry and the back doors only for exit is enough. The tag-on, tag-off system would work then.
If that works entry through the back door could be considered but certainly not now.

To tag off though, the readers on the pole would have to be connected up to GPS tracking or something, and I strongly suspect that they're not. If you top up your Leap card online, you have to bring it to a Luas station or a train station before the card knows that it has credit, which suggests to me that the reader to the right of the front door of the bus is stand-alone.

This should be changed. It can't be that difficult, technically.

strandroad

Duffff-Man wrote: »

Care to answer my question for the third time?

Eh I explained already. I never suggested adding a physical third door, where do you take it from? Just making the other one available for boarding as it could more than double the number of people through.

Peregrine

mhge wrote: »

Who says triple doors?

Apologies, I read that wrong.

mhge wrote: »

I only say that if you used the middle door for boarding, it would at least double (or perhaps even triple, since it's wider) the number of people boarding within a certain time.

Like I said. It's the exact same as boarding through one door and exiting through the other.

Wider? I don't know and even if it was, it's not enough to make any difference.

VG31 wrote: »

You probably could fit three doors on an Enviro 500 as the MAN Lion's City DDs in Berlin have three doors and they are only about 1m longer. They also have a big spiral staircase at the very back so people going upstairs use the front stairway and people going down use the back one (and the third door is directly opposite it).

There's very little space between the wheels and the engine on the E500, that one metre makes all the difference for the MAN There was a tender up for tri-axles to be delivered next year but I see it's cancelled now, not sure what the story is with that.

mhge wrote: »

Just making the other one available for boarding as it could more than double the number of people through.

It would be the exact same as utilising both doors like the NTA/DB is trying to do at the moment.

You don't seem to be listening to any of the replies. Goodnight.

Dandelion6

Lau2976 wrote: »

Why would someone who uses the bus maybe two, three times a year carry around a leap card all the time?

Oh come on, it's not like they take up much space. I have plenty of cards I use less than two or three times a year (including an Oyster card FWIW).

The problem I see with a leap card-only system is that this is Dublin and we're sure to make a complete hames of it. Would agree with raising cash fares to encourage more usage of the leap, as well as a tag-on tag-off system, but allowing people to pay cash if they need to.

ThisRegard

stehyl15 wrote: »

You should buy a ticket in the shop

Nonsense. You could be nowhere near a shop, or getting a bus long after the shop has closed.