Why France

indy_man

I am not sure this is the best place to covey my thoughts, but my thoughts are Christian related so I think it fits this forum. I don't want to spread more hatred but I do want to highlight some truths.

I don't see Islam as being the main problem causing this dreadful terror in France, I see it as more the punishment or some parts of Islam being part of the punishment. When you remove the light from a room it becomes dark, when you remove heat the cold enters and when you remove love then hatred, apathy, violence and evil enters. God is Love, we all know that and western society has removed God from it, so now the darkness has entered. France has become a secular society, much of the population have turned their back on God. Church attendance is very small. Abortion up to the 12th week is possible, I believe up to 1 in 5 marriages in Paris last year were same sex marriages. France has become extremely liberal in many ways and now God has removed the restrainer and punishment will follow.

When the radical Imans and Jihadists laugh and our secular societies there is only one way to combat this and it is to start by telling them the truth.

Anjem Choudary, Londan based radical activist laughed in Miriam O'Callaghans face last week on Irish TV, he laughed at the secular west. Its very easy for him to poke holes at the west because the west is morally in a shambles.

This truth is that Christ is the Messiah, the Son of God and also God. God with us, Emmanuel. Radical Islam can be defeated by truth, the writings of Isaiah need to be presented to them. Christianity and conversion back to it is they only solution for the west now. Islam denies Christ is both the father and the son.

"Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist." 1 John


http://www.markmallett.com/blog/removing-the-restrainer/

http://www.spiritdaily.com/muslimevil.htm

excerpts

These are among the queries raised by consistently atrocious conduct. There is no question that there are many good, peaceful Muslims -- saintly ones. Our first call is to love them -- to get along with them; to respect the goodness we find.

Westerners are attacked and killed over cartoons that are critical or satirical of Mohammed yet Muslims can feel free not only to satirize Christians -- not only to ban their prayer -- not only to arrest them for carrying a Bible, or refusing to "convert," or mentioning the name of Christ -- but to kill them, often in the most gruesome fashion. Even kids are decapitated.

Manach

As being interested in history, I'd approach this in a different way. France's past has a complex relationship with Religion. On the one hand, the country was known as the eldest daughter of the Church and home to some of the most ancient institutions inherient in the Church. On the other, predating the Revolution there was the brand of anti-Clericism Enlightenment crafted by Voltaire and imbued at a core-level within the DNA of post 1789. This has lead to the bright and colourful era of the Belle Epoch and the dark struggles between various elements of society, for instance the Dreyfuss affair as described by historians such as Alastair Horne.

The upshot is that both sides do not know how to speak the same intellectual language. Roughly on one side there is the individualism and emphasis of rights existing derived from being citizens of a state, on the other, a community sense of the sacred with the relationship between God and people being paramount. For the true believers on both sides, there is very room to maneuver to deviated from their perceived internal truths.

RikuoAmero

I, as an atheist, of course view this completely differently. Here's several reasons
1) It paints what is usually called an all-loving merciful God as a vengeful jealous being, which repulses me. If this really is his response to society allowing same sex couples to have the same marriage benefits as hetero couples, then I want nothing to do with him, my conscience simply wouldn't allow it.
2) It's subtle - instead of clearly saying "Because you have turned your backs on my religion, I will cause this to happen" in an unambiguous way such that no-one can be left in doubt, you're left running around trying to find meaning.
3) What you're saying there is literally no different to various other events throughout history. Ever hear of the Black Death? That was a plague that struck Europe in the 1300s. Writings from that period say basically the same as you - Europe has abandoned christianity and thus God is smiting them. Or how about the Mongol conquests? They were viewed as the christian god's retributive tool against a sinful world.
4) Another reason is that how do you prove your claim? What's to stop literally anyone from claiming that Bad Event X happened because society doesn't follow that guy's particular god and that god's teachings? I've heard about Islamic imams who say that earthquakes happen because of women not wearing modest clothing. So would you sit back and say "Yeah, a bad thing happened, we must therefore rush out and buy hijabs for all the women"? No, you insist that society must adhere to the teachings of your particular religion, in order to stop these events. As I pointed out above with the Black Death, even though Europe was basically entirely christian (apart from southern Spain that was Muslim), that somehow didn't stop the black death from occurring, and that didn't stop people from claiming it's because of the vengeful christian god doing it because somehow Europe wasn't christian "enough". How come even though during the 1300s there were no homosexual marriages in Europe, the Black Death still occurred and people still claimed it was because of a vengeful god? What's different about someone in the 1300s claiming a vengeful god and you in 2015 claiming a vengeful god?
5) Again I have to mention the Black Death and the claims that it was because of a vengeful god. People back then claimed that society must repent of its sins, and only then, if it did that, would the plague stop or the Mongols would cease in their conquests. However, we now know, thanks to science, that the black death could have very easily been prevented through basic hygiene, which was a little known concept in 1300's Europe. There is no evidence that any amount of societal repentance of sins would have stopped a disease. We also know that no amount of societal repentance of sins stopped the Mongol conquests - they turned back from an attempted conquest of Europe due to the death of Genghis Khan's son, thus falling victim to a war of succession (much like what happened with Alexander the Great's empire, which fragmented after his death).

Islam denies Christ is both the father and the son.

According to Islam, believing that Christ is both the father and the son is a mortal sin, one that angers God. According to you, not believing it is the cause of God causing all these attacks. Who am I to believe? You both cannot be correct, but you both can be wrong.

Why is it you don't opt for the simplest explanation, one that does fit all the data? The simplest explanation is that the shooters did what they did simply because they believed it to be right. Not because a deity was pulling their strings like a puppet, but because the shooters were subscribed to a belief system that contains the teaching to kill those who mock their prophet. Charlie Hebdo did mock their prophet, and as a result, the shooters felt they had every right in the world to do what they did.

FYI - Just in case, I am not agreeing with the shooters. They were of course reprehensible for what they did.

Westerners are attacked and killed over cartoons that are critical or satirical of Mohammed yet Muslims can feel free not only to satirize Christians -- not only to ban their prayer -- not only to arrest them for carrying a Bible, or refusing to "convert," or mentioning the name of Christ -- but to kill them, often in the most gruesome fashion. Even kids are decapitated.

This was Europe in the Middle Ages. If you mocked christianity, or belonged to the wrong denomination, you could be arrested, imprisoned, tortured and killed. To me, Islam is simply, in the 21st century, stuck in a Middle Ages mindset when it comes to freedom of religion.


The long and short of this comment is: Even in societies that were fully christian, and fully embracing of christian concepts and teachings, you still had various bad events happening. If bad events happened then irrespective of the nation being christian, why do you argue that countries today must be christian? We know being christian nations didn't stop bad events from happening.

j80ezgvc3p92xu

Looking at France throughout history it appears the country has a very special relationship with God. Known as the Eldest Daughter of the Church, she was saved from destruction a number of times. St Joan of Arc was instructed by God to drive the Brits out in the Middle Ages. I have also heard that the mystic Martha Robin gave up her eyesight as a gift to save France during World War II. Despite the French armed forces performing rather poorly, it seems that France was spared the ravages and destruction of Poland, Russia or Yugoslavia.

Even though France has embraced the revolutionary spirit of Freemasonry and the social decay that is Cultural Marxism, I find it hard to believe that she will be forgotten by God. We have to remember that history moves in cycles- ups and downs- actions and reactions - and in the grand scheme of things France might yet play an important role in defending Christianity and the Western civilization.

Benny_Cake

Like most countries, France has a history of strife. Much of this predates modern French secularism - the anti-Huguenot persecution of the 16th century, violent anti-clericalism after the revolution, and of course the anti-Jewish policies of the Vicky government were carried out by a regime which set it's face against the liberal reforms of the early 20th century.

Although it might be comforting to some to blame this on secularism, I can't see how this holds up. This was the act of a lunatic fringe, whose motives we may never fully understand.

I'd add that a secular state, in some form, seems to me to be the best means of ensuring religious freedom and avoiding churches becoming a tool of the state, but obviously many disagree.

lazybones32

I think it may have more to do with a very large Muslim immigrant populace who aren't integrating into French Society, rather than being a consequence of God removing His protection. The Omagh bombing could be interpreted as a punishment too...but for whom?

It might be better to not try interpret certain happenings as being direct/indirect punishment because none of us know for sure.

indy_man

God didn't cause this to happen society has shut out God's grace through sin.

RikuoAmero wrote: »

I, as an atheist, of course view this completely differently. Here's several reasons
1) It paints what is usually called an all-loving merciful God as a vengeful jealous being, which repulses me. If this really is his response to society allowing same sex couples to have the same marriage benefits as hetero couples, then I want nothing to do with him, my conscience simply wouldn't allow it.
2) It's subtle - instead of clearly saying "Because you have turned your backs on my religion, I will cause this to happen" in an unambiguous way such that no-one can be left in doubt, you're left running around trying to find meaning.
3) What you're saying there is literally no different to various other events throughout history. Ever hear of the Black Death? That was a plague that struck Europe in the 1300s. Writings from that period say basically the same as you - Europe has abandoned christianity and thus God is smiting them. Or how about the Mongol conquests? They were viewed as the christian god's retributive tool against a sinful world.
4) Another reason is that how do you prove your claim? What's to stop literally anyone from claiming that Bad Event X happened because society doesn't follow that guy's particular god and that god's teachings? I've heard about Islamic imams who say that earthquakes happen because of women not wearing modest clothing. So would you sit back and say "Yeah, a bad thing happened, we must therefore rush out and buy hijabs for all the women"? No, you insist that society must adhere to the teachings of your particular religion, in order to stop these events. As I pointed out above with the Black Death, even though Europe was basically entirely christian (apart from southern Spain that was Muslim), that somehow didn't stop the black death from occurring, and that didn't stop people from claiming it's because of the vengeful christian god doing it because somehow Europe wasn't christian "enough". How come even though during the 1300s there were no homosexual marriages in Europe, the Black Death still occurred and people still claimed it was because of a vengeful god? What's different about someone in the 1300s claiming a vengeful god and you in 2015 claiming a vengeful god?
5) Again I have to mention the Black Death and the claims that it was because of a vengeful god. People back then claimed that society must repent of its sins, and only then, if it did that, would the plague stop or the Mongols would cease in their conquests. However, we now know, thanks to science, that the black death could have very easily been prevented through basic hygiene, which was a little known concept in 1300's Europe. There is no evidence that any amount of societal repentance of sins would have stopped a disease. We also know that no amount of societal repentance of sins stopped the Mongol conquests - they turned back from an attempted conquest of Europe due to the death of Genghis Khan's son, thus falling victim to a war of succession (much like what happened with Alexander the Great's empire, which fragmented after his death).

According to Islam, believing that Christ is both the father and the son is a mortal sin, one that angers God. According to you, not believing it is the cause of God causing all these attacks. Who am I to believe? You both cannot be correct, but you both can be wrong.

Why is it you don't opt for the simplest explanation, one that does fit all the data? The simplest explanation is that the shooters did what they did simply because they believed it to be right. Not because a deity was pulling their strings like a puppet, but because the shooters were subscribed to a belief system that contains the teaching to kill those who mock their prophet. Charlie Hebdo did mock their prophet, and as a result, the shooters felt they had every right in the world to do what they did.

FYI - Just in case, I am not agreeing with the shooters. They were of course reprehensible for what they did.



This was Europe in the Middle Ages. If you mocked christianity, or belonged to the wrong denomination, you could be arrested, imprisoned, tortured and killed. To me, Islam is simply, in the 21st century, stuck in a Middle Ages mindset when it comes to freedom of religion.


The long and short of this comment is: Even in societies that were fully christian, and fully embracing of christian concepts and teachings, you still had various bad events happening. If bad events happened then irrespective of the nation being christian, why do you argue that countries today must be christian? We know being christian nations didn't stop bad events from happening.

indy_man

I agree, I believe God will only allow this terror to happen for a small time, year or two then he will rescue France and the west. Not sure how but the 100 anniversary of Fatima is not far away and there is the prophecy of the Great Monarch that may happen also. Regarding Fatima some think another great miracle could be on the way.

Bonnie Tart Rifle wrote: »

Looking at France throughout history it appears the country has a very special relationship with God. Known as the Eldest Daughter of the Church, she was saved from destruction a number of times. St Joan of Arc was instructed by God to drive the Brits out in the Middle Ages. I have also heard that the mystic Martha Robin gave up her eyesight as a gift to save France during World War II. Despite the French armed forces performing rather poorly, it seems that France was spared the ravages and destruction of Poland, Russia or Yugoslavia.

Even though France has embraced the revolutionary spirit of Freemasonry and the social decay that is Cultural Marxism, I find it hard to believe that she will be forgotten by God. We have to remember that history moves in cycles- ups and downs- actions and reactions - and in the grand scheme of things France might yet play an important role in defending Christianity and the Western civilization.

Turtwig

One thing that's been brushed under the carpet since these attacks is France's social's problems. There's a lot of desolated and isolated youth who are ideal candidates for being radicalised. If it wasn't Islamic Extremism it would be something else. Yet, somewhat disappointingly, some discussions along this line are being wholly stifled in France by accusations of terrorist sympathy. In many ways, the problem has two main strands.
The failure of particular faiths e.g conservative judaism and muslims ethnicities to integrate into society. Some philosophies of life are more open to intermingling than others.
The failure of the indigenous authorities to both, facilitate and promote such integration, and to deal more adequately with the social inequalities plaguing many regions. France, as things are, is rather segregated. When you have a number of students in a lot of schools claiming the attacks were justified you know you have a problem that is likely going to be get worse before it gets better.

RikuoAmero

Turtwig wrote: »

One thing that's been brushed under the carpet since these attacks is France's social's problems. There's a lot of desolated and isolated youth who are ideal candidates for being radicalised. If it wasn't Islamic Extremism it would be something else. Yet, somewhat disappointingly, some discussions along this line are being wholly stifled in France by accusations of terrorist sympathy. In many ways, the problem has two main strands.
The failure of particular faiths e.g conservative judaism and muslims ethnicities to integrate into society. Some philosophies of life are more open to intermingling than others.
The failure of the indigenous authorities to both, facilitate and promote such integration, and to deal more adequately with the social inequalities plaguing many regions. France, as things are, is rather segregated. When you have a number of students in a lot of schools claiming the attacks were justified you know you have a problem that is likely going to be get worse before it gets better.

Agree with everything you say there. The solution isn't to start shoving bibles in their faces and tell them to 'repent': many of them won't have done anything at all that they need to repent of, and telling someone who's innocent that they're guilty for nothing less than being human is a sure fire way to get that person to resent you and stop listening to whatever it is you say.
After all, that's what happened to me.

Manach

From my understanding of their history, the attempt to build to a nationalist secularist state has placed great emphasis on the virtues of citizenary under the various republics. Hence the centralised schooling system and bureaucracy that France has been famed for. However this narrow focus on the individual and the heavy handed pushing of messages of a certain type of patriotism and reliance on a skepticism of non-state institutions have failed to meet match this aspect of social engineering with the practical realities of a diverse France.

RikuoAmero

Manach wrote: »

From my understanding of their history, the attempt to build to a nationalist secularist state has placed great emphasis on the virtues of citizenary under the various republics. Hence the centralised schooling system and bureaucracy that France has been famed for. However this narrow focus on the individual and the heavy handed pushing of messages of a certain type of patriotism and reliance on a skepticism of non-state institutions have failed to meet match this aspect of social engineering with the practical realities of a diverse France.

I agree. While I'm certainly not a fan of Islam, it is my belief that France messed up with banning wearing the burqa and other related cloths in publics. You don't engender a desire for individual freedoms in a person from a society/religion that disrespects the very concept...by denying that person the freedom to wear whatever clothes they like, even if they are all covering.
I don't know if this happened or not (I honestly don't think so) but imagine if, after WW2, the French took in large numbers of Jews from the concentration camps, people who had gotten used to wearing camp clothing and/or the star of David and wanted to still wear them, and the French government said that they were forbidden by law to wear them.

j80ezgvc3p92xu

prophecy of the Great Monarch that may happen also

What is that about?

lazybones32

Bonnie Tart Rifle wrote: »

What is that about?

A man of French Royal lineage will lead the Christian Armies. Nearly all mystics agree that he will have a pronounced limp.



http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/great-catholic-monarch.htm
http://joanandtherese.com/2012/06/22/pope-st-pius-xs-prophecy-for-france/

indy_man

lazybones32 wrote: »

A man of French Royal lineage will lead the Christian Armies. Nearly all mystics agree that he will have a pronounced limp.



http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/great-catholic-monarch.htm
http://joanandtherese.com/2012/06/22/pope-st-pius-xs-prophecy-for-france/

It also seems to be tied in with the Prophecy of the Angelic Shepard which some are saying could be Pope Francis.

http://unveilingtheapocalypse.blogspot.ie/2013/02/is-worthy-shepherd-prophecy-about-to-be.html

Merrion

OP - I don't think I've read anything more offensive in my entire life - and I'm an old man at this stage.
What on earth would posses you to post this?

RikuoAmero

Merrion wrote: »

OP - I don't think I've read anything more offensive in my entire life - and I'm an old man at this stage.
What on earth would posses you to post this?

I don't know about offensive, just stupid. "Bad Thing Happened...Therefore we should do what I say in order to stop Bad Things from happening!"

indy_man

…in the last days there will come times of stress. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, fierce, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. (2 Tim 3:1-4)

RobbingBandit

The French supported the publication of the images of Muhammad, they have also introduced many laws prohibiting the wearing of a hijab and or veil by women in public making them a target for secular muslims, these attacks were not spur of the moment they were sickeningly intricately planned and carried out.

indy_man

RobbingBandit wrote: »

The French supported the publication of the images of Muhammad, they have also introduced many laws prohibiting the wearing of a hijab and or veil by women in public making them a target for secular muslims, these attacks were not spur of the moment they were sickeningly intricately planned and carried out.

I don't disagree with any of that.

Turtwig

Mod:

Several posts deleted. A reminder to posters to avoid making things personal and if you feel a post crosses the line report it. We won't bite you. There might even be some cake.

lazybones32

indy_man wrote: »

It also seems to be tied in with the Prophecy of the Angelic Shepard which some are saying could be Pope Francis.

http://unveilingtheapocalypse.blogspot.ie/2013/02/is-worthy-shepherd-prophecy-about-to-be.html

The Monarch and the Shepherd will be at the same time but I don't think Francis is the man. A lot of other stuff is supposed to happen before these two take their place and, as far as I know, it hasn't happened yet. Then again, I could have misinterpreted or not understood what has happened. Either way, I'm trying to get my own house in order...

eviltwin

Why France? Why anywhere? Why do bad things happen, the attack in Nigeria, the mass school shootings in the USA, famine, wars etc. Bad things happen because life happens. Trying to explain it....Why? Why not just accept some people are just bad and their victims are just unfortunate. To try and blame this on the evolution of French society is highly offensive. RIP to all the deceased.

indy_man

eviltwin wrote: »

Why France? Why anywhere? Why do bad things happen, the attack in Nigeria, the mass school shootings in the USA, famine, wars etc. Bad things happen because life happens. Trying to explain it....Why? Why not just accept some people are just bad and their victims are just unfortunate. To try and blame this on the evolution of French society is highly offensive. RIP to all the deceased.

So instead of just disagreeing with you, then causing a flurry of ridiculous, rude offensive posts, mostly in my direction, can I ask you a question.

When you see sights like the recent massacre in Nigeria, or even what happened in Rwanda in 1994 do you ever think there is something else at work, something we cant see, something inhuman at play. Behind those gaunt eyes of a killer there is more than meets the eye. Do you ever consider their may be a spiritual evil, a Satan, something which must be opposite to anything good in the world, something opposite to love.


Tell me what you think, i don't want to argue, just want a civil opinion.

Ghost Buster

indy_man wrote: »

So instead of just disagreeing with you, then causing a flurry of ridiculous, rude offensive posts, mostly in my direction, can I ask you a question.

When you see sights like the recent massacre in Nigeria, or even what happened in Rwanda in 1994 do you ever think there is something else at work, something we cant see, something inhuman at play. Behind those gaunt eyes of a killer there is more than meets the eye. Do you ever consider their may be a spiritual evil, a Satan, something which must be opposite to anything good in the world, something opposite to love.


Tell me what you think, i don't want to argue, just want a civil opinion.

Well. If I were remotely inclined to believe in gods and devils I would look at which being is on record as having a history of massacre and genocide.

MrPudding

indy_man wrote: »

So instead of just disagreeing with you, then causing a flurry of ridiculous, rude offensive posts, mostly in my direction, can I ask you a question.

When you see sights like the recent massacre in Nigeria, or even what happened in Rwanda in 1994 do you ever think there is something else at work, something we cant see, something inhuman at play. Behind those gaunt eyes of a killer there is more than meets the eye. Do you ever consider their may be a spiritual evil, a Satan, something which must be opposite to anything good in the world, something opposite to love.


Tell me what you think, i don't want to argue, just want a civil opinion.

The thing is, there doesn't need to be anything else. We have perfectly rational reasons why some people do the things they do.

Charismatic leaders with mental issues are extremely common. And people frequently follow 'false' ideologies and their leaders. I should not have to tell you this. I beleive you are catholic, so I guess you think that scientologists, mormons muslims all have it wrong. But I am sure you also understand that they beleive what they beleive with the same passion as you do, but you can't all be right. This shows that people will beleive things that are incorrect.

Take a look at Milgrim's and experiments to see how easy it is to lead people to do things they would not expect to do.

We don't need a supernatural explanation for what we see in the world, good or bad.

MrP

RikuoAmero

indy_man wrote: »

So instead of just disagreeing with you, then causing a flurry of ridiculous, rude offensive posts, mostly in my direction, can I ask you a question.

When you see sights like the recent massacre in Nigeria, or even what happened in Rwanda in 1994 do you ever think there is something else at work, something we cant see, something inhuman at play. Behind those gaunt eyes of a killer there is more than meets the eye. Do you ever consider their may be a spiritual evil, a Satan, something which must be opposite to anything good in the world, something opposite to love.


Tell me what you think, i don't want to argue, just want a civil opinion.

Nope, because that is a completely unnecessary violation of Occam's Razor. We can already explain such tragedies quite well: the doings of evil men, and we don't need to invoke a spiritual entity. The Charlie Hebdo shooters were part of a belief system that includes, in its teachings, the command to kill those who mock their beliefs, which is what Hebdo did repeatedly.
There, a nice and tidy explanation, no need to pretend there was a devil whispering in the shooters's ears.

j80ezgvc3p92xu

I think that in the grander scheme of things there is more to the recent happenings in France than simply a case of poor, disillusioned French muslims or the removal of God's protection over France. Cui bono? At the same time as the world is preoccupied with the events in Paris, the Russians have launched a major offensive on the Donetsk airport and other targets in eastern Ukraine, utilizing thermobaric weapons. The old KGB was known for staging sideshows and false flags to achieve their aims. With the world focused on France, scant attention is paid to Ukraine.

But whoever did it, I do not think that Christianity and Islam can co-exist peacefully and eventually there will have to be some sort of decisive showdown. Islam recognizes only two states the world can be in - the state of Islam or the state of war. This is in the Koran. Just look at what is happening in the area controlled by ISIS.

eviltwin

indy_man wrote: »

So instead of just disagreeing with you, then causing a flurry of ridiculous, rude offensive posts, mostly in my direction, can I ask you a question.

When you see sights like the recent massacre in Nigeria, or even what happened in Rwanda in 1994 do you ever think there is something else at work, something we cant see, something inhuman at play. Behind those gaunt eyes of a killer there is more than meets the eye. Do you ever consider their may be a spiritual evil, a Satan, something which must be opposite to anything good in the world, something opposite to love.


Tell me what you think, i don't want to argue, just want a civil opinion.

No I don't because I think to blame it on the devil or another evil force takes away responsibility from those who commit those acts.

Greaney

France, Like Great Britain, had many former colonies in Muslim, African Countries. Tricky thing interpreting 'They kingdom come'. Some folk want it to be of an earthly realm....

El_Duderino 09

OK what you've done here is pick one tragedy and explaining it with lack of religion. Classic illustration of the sharpshooter fallacy.

The broader claim you're making is that there is a correlation between lack of Christianity and tragedy. What about making a list of all the countries and grading them for their christianness. Then grade the level of tragedy in that country and there should be a fairly linear positive correlation between lack of Christianity and increasing tragedy. You would need to know how God feels about different religions. Obviously God loves catholics most, followed by Jews, the chosen people. Then probably protestants and working down to Atheist and Muslims at the bottom.

I'm sure you'll find atheist and secular countries will be most tragedy stricken and miserable.

Saipanne

indy_man wrote: »

I am not sure this is the best place to covey my thoughts, but my thoughts are Christian related so I think it fits this forum. I don't want to spread more hatred but I do want to highlight some truths.

I don't see Islam as being the main problem causing this dreadful terror in France, I see it as more the punishment or some parts of Islam being part of the punishment. When you remove the light from a room it becomes dark, when you remove heat the cold enters and when you remove love then hatred, apathy, violence and evil enters. God is Love, we all know that and western society has removed God from it, so now the darkness has entered. France has become a secular society, much of the population have turned their back on God. Church attendance is very small. Abortion up to the 12th week is possible, I believe up to 1 in 5 marriages in Paris last year were same sex marriages. France has become extremely liberal in many ways and now God has removed the restrainer and punishment will follow.

When the radical Imans and Jihadists laugh and our secular societies there is only one way to combat this and it is to start by telling them the truth.

Anjem Choudary, Londan based radical activist laughed in Miriam O'Callaghans face last week on Irish TV, he laughed at the secular west. Its very easy for him to poke holes at the west because the west is morally in a shambles.

This truth is that Christ is the Messiah, the Son of God and also God. God with us, Emmanuel. Radical Islam can be defeated by truth, the writings of Isaiah need to be presented to them. Christianity and conversion back to it is they only solution for the west now. Islam denies Christ is both the father and the son.

"Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist." 1 John


http://www.markmallett.com/blog/removing-the-restrainer/

http://www.spiritdaily.com/muslimevil.htm

excerpts

This whole post makes me sad.

pauldla

indy_man wrote: »

…in the last days there will come times of stress. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, fierce, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. (2 Tim 3:1-4)

Couldn't that particular piece of prose be used to describe any period of human history since the year dot?

El_Duderino 09

pauldla wrote: »

Couldn't that particular piece of prose be used to describe any period of human history since the year dot?

It can and has been. It meant to refer to the time in which it was written and has been used by credulous individuals in every time period since. Could there ever be a period in time which this couldn't apply?

Bad things happene,people are cheeky to their parents, people put material wealth above the interests of others. It has always been that way. That's not to take from the fact that it would be better if people didn't do those things but it has zero predictive power. It might as well say 'beware the blue sky'.

Manach

Placing this in the historical perspective of the greater historical cycle of the end of European dominance of the past 500 years and that if the cycle of aftershocks of the 60s and the statis of the Cold War then this period of changes of mores and beliefs is one of those historical inflection points where cultural matters are in a major state of flux.

El_Duderino 09

Manach wrote: »

Placing this in the historical perspective of the greater historical cycle of the end of European dominance of the past 500 years and that if the cycle of aftershocks of the 60s and the statis of the Cold War then this period of changes of mores and beliefs is one of those historical inflection points where cultural matters are in a major state of flux.

Just as they always are

Manach

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Just as they always are

Are we talking about actual historical analysis or the universal use of bland cliches.

El_Duderino 09

Manach wrote: »

Are we talking about actual historical analysis or the universal use of bland cliches.

I think it's revelation prophecy. The kind that has been talked about as being imminent since it was written. I'd describe it as bland cliché. That's what's happening here right?

Manach

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think it's revelation prophecy. The kind that has been talked about as being imminent since it was written. I'd describe it as bland cliché. That's what's happening here right?

Partially. In that leaving aside the quote my point is that there are cycles in history where rapid changes occur - akin to Gould's concert of puncuated evolution. This is taken from a Tillmans(?) book "secular cycles" and to a lesser extent by historians such as Neil Feguson. These are imho one of those points due to the rapid natural of societal change.

El_Duderino 09

Manach wrote: »

Partially. In that leaving aside the quote my point is that there are cycles in history where rapid changes occur - akin to Gould's concert of puncuated evolution. This is taken from a Tillmans(?) book "secular cycles" and to a lesser extent by historians such as Neil Feguson. These are imho one of those points due to the rapid natural of societal change.

Sure. Change happens . The present is different to the past and over time big changes happen. Some people superimpose prophecy on top of reality. Nostradamus made a living from it and his prophecies are as relevant today as they were the day they were written. That is to say not useful at predicting anything but very broad and open to interpretation.

volchitsa

In the light of the earthquakes in Nepal, is there any chance at all that the OP might explain where Nepal is going wrong, in religious terms?

(I'm assuming God can control tectonic plates as easily as he can terrorists - and fwiw the idea that God punishes a country via other people is surely more of a problem as far as free will is concerned than using niatural disasters to punish them - isn't it?)

So what have the Nepalese done wrong? Whatever it is, they've been punished twice for it in a short pace of time. Seems far more severe than the punishment the French got. Infinitely more death and injury, that's for sure.

MrPudding

volchitsa wrote: »

In the light of the earthquakes in Nepal, is there any chance at all that the OP might explain where Nepal is going wrong, in religious terms?

(I'm assuming God can control tectonic plates as easily as he can terrorists - and fwiw the idea that God punishes a country via other people is surely more of a problem as far as free will is concerned than using niatural disasters to punish them - isn't it?)

So what have the Nepalese done wrong? Whatever it is, they've been punished twice for it in a short pace of time. Seems far more severe than the punishment the French got. Infinitely more death and injury, that's for sure.

Clearly there was not enough high quality praying after the first earthquake, so much so that the infinitely just am merciful God felt he had no choice but to deliver another earthquake. Clearly many peoe will find it difficult to reconcile what we are told about God with these actions, but he does, after all, work in mysterious ways.

I think that rather than missionaries we should be sending successful religious sports personalities to areas in need of god's help. In the grand scheme of things, a footballer praying for, and scoring a goal may seem less important than, say, a mother praying for the life of her child, but it seems like these sports people are much better at praying. We should be sending them to these famine and natural disaster ravaged countries to show these people where they are going wrong in the praying department.

MrP

PopePalpatine

I wonder how OP would react if it was Catholic extremists who carried out the Charlie Hebdo massacre.

volchitsa

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I wonder how OP would react if it was Catholic extremists who carried out the Charlie Hebdo massacre.

Oh well in that case it would obviously be God's work.:D

Koptain Liverpool

Here´s my thoughts OP. Stupid idiotic post by a stupid idiot. I hate name calling but your post is so ridiculous that I couldn´t even be bothered to engage you in debate. If you are not trolling then I think you really need pyschiatric help.

volchitsa

The OP seems to have decided that discretion is the better part of valour, and apparently doesn't wish to defend his argument.

Either he's a troll, as you say, or someone who still can't get his head around the fact that "Because Religion" is no longer enough to put an end to any disagreement.

Delirium

Koptain Liverpool wrote: »

Here´s my thoughts OP. Stupid idiotic post by a stupid idiot. I hate name calling but your post is so ridiculous that I couldn´t even be bothered to engage you in debate. If you are not trolling then I think you really need pyschiatric help.

MOD NOTE

Carded for personal abuse.

Also, please report posts you believe to be trolling instead of accussing them of it on thread.

Thanks for your attention.