Employer threatening to not pay wage.

mardybumbum

Hi there,

I have been working with my current employer ( a city centre hospital ) for the last 6 months.
I am rostered for a 39 hour week but work 50 hours every week.
There is an attendance/overtime form which I have to fill out every month to demonstrate how many hours I have actually worked.
I have only discovered this form this week.
My employer states that they will not assess any of these forms before 3 months ago.
That means I am missing out on 11*4*3 = 132 hours in total pay.

Surely this is illegal?

Thank you for any clarification on the matter.

wmpdd3

Is it a HSE or private hospital?



Who was supposed to tell you of this form ?

If it's a case that you didn't follow their process for claiming overtime it comes down to who was supposed to tell you of this process.

Did you not query why you were left short after the first month?

Is there an option to work your contracted hours or is overtime compulsory ?

I would write to hr detailing the outstanding hours and let them get back to you with either a solution or an argument for not paying you.

mardybumbum

wmpdd3 wrote: »

Is it a HSE or private hospital?



Who was supposed to tell you of this form ?

If it's a case that you didn't follow their process for claiming overtime it comes down to who was supposed to tell you of this process.

Did you not query why you were left short after the first month?

Is there an option to work your contracted hours or is overtime compulsory ?

I would write to hr detailing the outstanding hours and let them get back to you with either a solution or an argument for not paying you.

It's a HSE hospital.

I guess it was up to HR to tell me but I found out from another colleague.

My overtime is compulsory. My Rota has me down for 50 hours a week but the HR only pay 39 standard hours per week. It is up to me to then fill in an attendance form to imply them of any excess hours worked.

Pat Mustard

You work for a HSE hospital and they haven't been paying your wages in respect of compulsory overtime.

A solicitor's letter should resolve this.

mardybumbum

Thank you The Mustard.

If they fail to agree to pay me my overtime I will contact a solicitor.

davo10

The Mustard wrote: »

You work for a HSE hospital and they haven't been paying your wages in respect of compulsory overtime.

A solicitor's letter should resolve this.

Surely the first thing the OP should do is check his/her contract of employment? If the need to submit overtime hours each month is on the contract and that there is a time limit of three months to submit the form, then the OP having signed the agreement would have agreed to these terms.

Also, OP may be working in a hospital but may infact be an agency worker rather than being directly employed by the HSE, OP can you confirm that you have a contract and that you are employed directly by the HSE.

Pat Mustard

davo10 wrote: »

Surely the first thing the OP should do is check his/her contract of employment?

Absolutely. That may be the case. And if it is the case and if HSE wants to stick to its guns, then the OP can start going through the contract with a fine tooth comb, checking to see if it complies with Terms of Employment legislation, checking to see if there have been breaches of the Organisation of Working Time Act, etc.

In any event, the OP is going to see a solicitor, so the contract can be checked.

bisset

This may be covered by a grievance or similar policy. I presume the OP is not a union member but this can probably be resolved without getting a solicitor's letter.

davo10

The Mustard wrote: »

Absolutely. That may be the case. And if it is the case and if HSE wants to stick to its guns, then the OP can start going through the contract with a fine tooth comb, checking to see if it complies with Terms of Employment legislation, checking to see if there have been breaches of the Organisation of Working Time Act, etc.

In any event, the OP is going to see a solicitor, so the contract can be checked.

Presumably the solicitor will ask if the 50 hours include break times, then presumably the solicitor will explain to the OP that in the case of nurses the maximum 48 hour per week average covered in the Organisation of working time act is taken over a 6 month period which is longer than the normal 4 months as he/she is a hospital worker. Also it could be argued by the HSE that it would have come to the attention of HR had the OP submitted her hours as per the terms of her contract.

The solicitor would presumably also inform the OP that as he/she has been working there for less than a year, it would be relatively easy for her employer to terminate her employment/not renew her contract if he/she is an agency worker.

And the cost of that fine tooth comb? Perhaps could be avoided by reading the contract. Of course the solicitor will advise OP of the best course of action, especially if there is no clause relating to a claim for extra hours.

NUTLEY BOY

There is also an issue of equity. The employer has actually had the benefit of the hours worked by the employee. Are they seriously expecting to get 132 hours for nothing ?

Addle

How long were you going to let it go before getting paid?
Did you not think to make enquiries about it yourself? Or did you think you'd let your OT build up into a huge lump sum?
Should the employee not be expected to take some responsibility for this situation themselves?

bucketybuck

You were working 11 hours per week overtime and never thought that you might have to actually claim for it? How else did you expect overtime was going to be paid?

And why have you let it go for 6 months? You would have been short 44 hours wages after the first month, why on earth did you not notice this?

conorh91

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

There is also an issue of equity. The employer has actually had the benefit of the hours worked by the employee. Are they seriously expecting to get 132 hours for nothing ?

I think people are really in danger of underestimating the HSE here.

I'm not sure if the situation has changed, but a couple of years ago i lived with a junior doctor who would spend hours… maybe 20 hours per week… doing unpaid overtime. This was obviously a well-qualified, bright girl who was well capable of understanding her rights. But by all accounts, the HSE has (or had then) an unwritten policy of subtle blackmail to work unpaid overtime… not just from soulless, number-crunching administrators, but from consultants who felt that it was part of the process of working in healthcare. Needless to say she's in New Zealand these days. Still in healthcare. Without the unpaid overtime.

Pat Mustard

mardybumbum wrote: »

with my current employer ( a city centre hospital ) for the last 6 months.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1991/en/act/pub/0025/sec0006.html#sec6

(4) A rights commissioner shall not entertain a complaint under this section unless it is presented to him within the period of 6 months beginning on the date of the contravention to which the complaint relates or (in a case where the rights commissioner is satisfied that exceptional circumstances prevented the presentation of the complaint within the period aforesaid) such further period not exceeding 6 months as the rights commissioner considers reasonable.

Wouldn't want to delay on this.

davo10

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

There is also an issue of equity. The employer has actually had the benefit of the hours worked by the employee. Are they seriously expecting to get 132 hours for nothing ?

I bet my bile duct that OP is including her break times in the 50 hrs per week, if she/he is, you can knock 7.5 hours off that meaning she is working on average one extra hour over time per day.

Marcusm

The Mustard wrote: »

You work for a HSE hospital and they haven't been paying your wages in respect of compulsory overtime.

A solicitor's letter should resolve this.

It's actually fairly widespread - failure to pay for fostered overtime - and was the subject of a work stoppage by doctor's in Cork last year. A solicitor's letter will likely be noted but not actioned.

Pat Mustard

Marcusm wrote: »

It's actually fairly widespread - failure to pay for fostered overtime - and was the subject of a work stoppage by doctor's in Cork last year. A solicitor's letter will likely be noted but not actioned.

I'm not familiar with the situation so I'll take your word for it.

In any event, given the time limit, it is possible that further action is necessary now, rather than just a solicitor's letter.

brownej

bucketybuck wrote: »

You were working 11 hours per week overtime and never thought that you might have to actually claim for it? How else did you expect overtime was going to be paid?

I find this very unusual.
Any place I have worked where overtime was paid (not recently), If overtime was mandatory and rostered by the company then they kept track of it and it was included in your wages. They were shceduling you to do it afterall so its not as if they can claim they didn't know about it.
I would find it very unusual that one would have to explicitly claim for hours worked where you were told by the employer to work them.
Do these places not have approriate time and attendance systems that log all of this.
maybe I am severly underestimating the incompetencies of the HSE bureaucracy.

mardybumbum

brownej wrote: »

I find this very unusual.
Any place I have worked where overtime was paid (not recently), If overtime was mandatory and rostered by the company then they kept track of it and it was included in your wages. They were shceduling you to do it afterall so its not as if they can claim they didn't know about it.
I would find it very unusual that one would have to explicitly claim for hours worked where you were told by the employer to work them.
Do these places not have approriate time and attendance systems that log all of this.
maybe I am severly underestimating the incompetencies of the HSE bureaucracy.

Thank you for your reply brownej.
I made the mistake of assuming they were paying me for my 50 hours also until I checked recently. Naive, I know.
As somebody who used to work 100 hours a week and get paid for only half of them, this situation is actually a sigh of relief to what I was experiencing last year.

As for the helpful poster who wonders If I include my lunch hour, I get a 10 - 20 minute break a day.

They may also be within their rights to let me go if I have been working there only 6 months but they would be one A&E doc down in an already crumbling service.

I have written to the head of HR and asked him to clarify the matter. If I do not receive a reply within the week I will then look at contacting the rights commissioner.

seagull

mardybumbum wrote: »

As for the helpful poster who wonders If I include my lunch hour, I get a 10 - 20 minute break a day.

That has them suitably in breach of working time directives.

Pat Mustard

mardybumbum wrote: »

As for the helpful poster who wonders If I include my lunch hour, I get a 10 - 20 minute break a day.

They may also be within their rights to let me go if I have been working there only 6 months but they would be one A&E doc down in an already crumbling service.

Are you a doctor in training?
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0020/sec0003.html#sec3

(2) Subject to subsection (4), Part II shall not apply to—
...
(iii) the activities of a doctor in training

davo10

mardybumbum wrote: »

They may also be within their rights to let me go if I have been working there only 6 months but they would be one A&E doc down in an already crumbling service.

I have written to the head of HR and asked him to clarify the matter. If I do not receive a reply within the week I will then look at contacting the rights commissioner.

You should be talking to the IMO then rather than posting on boards. I have been through what you have, I know the game you have to play to progress in the medical profession, each post depends on the reference from the previous one so think very carefully before you involve rights Commisioner/solicitor, your consultant will no doubt be informed.

The medical profession is like the legal profession, if you want a good job in a "big firm" sometimes you have to put in the extra (sometimes unpaid) hours to get to where you want to be. I'll be honest as well OP, as a Doc, not noticing that you weren't being paid is even stranger.

ted1

Are you including lunch breaks?

mardybumbum

davo10 wrote: »

You should be talking to the IMO then rather than posting on boards. I have been through what you have, I know the game you have to play to progress in the medical profession, each post depends on the reference from the previous one so think very carefully before you involve rights Commisioner/solicitor, your consultant will no doubt be informed.

The medical profession is like the legal profession, if you want a good job in a "big firm" sometimes you have to put in the extra (sometimes unpaid) hours to get to where you want to be. I'll be honest as well OP, as a Doc, not noticing that you weren't being paid is even stranger.

I do regret that I hadn't checked earlier but I am not the only doctor in the department who is in this predicament currently.

My consultant has already been informed of the issue and has subsequently offered me to stay on after my contract ends so that is not an issue either. Not that it would change my mind anyway.

I appreciate your concern but I have decided that I will go down the route of the rights commisioner if this dispute is not settled locally.

davo10

mardybumbum wrote: »

I do regret that I hadn't checked earlier but I am not the only doctor in the department who is in this predicament currently.

My consultant has already been informed of the issue and has subsequently offered me to stay on after my contract ends so that is not an issue either. Not that it would change my mind anyway.

I appreciate your concern but I have decided that I will go down the route of the rights commisioner if this dispute is not settled locally.

Talk to the IMO first before you do that, your consultant may be ok about it now, but wait until he/she starts having to give statements and that may soon change.