kings inn entrance exam 2015

r_seal

Hey - my 1st post so bear with me pls (probably have it in the wrong place!).

I'm a mature student, completed my LLB in 2010, and have been away from law since. Been threatening to try for the BL since and decided this is the year. I've a few questions:

1. I wasn't going to do any of the prep courses, but was going to buy a copy of last years notes and work through them myself. Thoughts??

2. The plan was to start studying in February (slow and steady). Will this be enough time and any advice/tips on how to best use the time?

3. Any general advice on the exam process?

No doubt all this has already been covered on the many threads out there but thought this question might save some time!

Thanks.

NoQuarter

r_seal wrote: »

Hey - my 1st post so bear with me pls (probably have it in the wrong place!).

I'm a mature student, completed my LLB in 2010, and have been away from law since. Been threatening to try for the BL since and decided this is the year. I've a few questions:

1. I wasn't going to do any of the prep courses, but was going to buy a copy of last years notes and work through them myself. Thoughts??

You've already studied law and assuming you know you can wrote learn the manuals, this is absolutely fine. You should have an understanding of the principles so just learn those manuals cover to cover. If there is anything youre stuck on, youd be better off just getting a grind for an hour on that topic. Prep courses are not essential and too expensive, that money will be better served going toward the BL degree. (Youll need all the help you can get with that one!)

2. The plan was to start studying in February (slow and steady). Will this be enough time and any advice/tips on how to best use the time?

That is plenty of time but make sure you have a solid structure. Figure out how many weeks there in until the exams, then work out a reverse pyramid. ie 3 weeks per topic > 2 weeks per topic > 1 week per topic > 3 days per topic right down to where you can go through a whole topic in 1 day. you should aim to be in that position the week before the exams (or earlier is even better). That way, you can comfortably sit one exam, then grab your notes for the next exam and refresh your memory in the 10 hours or so you will have. It's a marathon.

3. Any general advice on the exam process?

If you think you've fluffed one, make sure you do the rest. Dont give up because you think youve failed an early one, keep going no matter what. You might be surprised. Do NOT leave out any topics because the Q1 is compulsory so why go through all that trouble only to leave out 1 topic and have that come up an your Q1. then you will fail.

If you know and understand those manuals cover to cover, you will pass comfortably. That's all there is to it.

No doubt all this has already been covered on the many threads out there but thought this question might save some time!

Thanks.

I've answered your points inside the quote. Good luck!

r_seal

Many thanks for taking the time to answer - this might sound ridiculous but could you explain the 'reverse pyramid' revision further?

NoQuarter

r_seal wrote: »

Many thanks for taking the time to answer - this might sound ridiculous but could you explain the 'reverse pyramid' revision further?

Ok so you need to do the exact maths but lets say the exams are 24 weeks away which may be about right. What I would do is break my study down as follows:

2 weeks for each topic = 10 weeks then:
1 week for each topic = 5 weeks
4 days for each topic = 20 days
3 days for each topic = 15 days
2 days for each topic = 10 days
1 day for each topic = 5 days
1 day for each topic = 5 days

That's a total of about 23 weeks and is a nice lead up, so you just need to work out the best reverse pyramid for you. Bear in mind you'll need a long stint initially at each topic to understand it all and make out your short hand notes.

By the time you get down to the days stints, your notes should be done and all it should be is revision and making sure the deep understanding is there.

r_seal

Ah ok - thanks

FreudianSlippers

The course really depends on how motivated you are. I found it extremely helpful as it provided a study structure and I just generally do better when I interact with people rather than books alone - so it's personal preference.

One of the things that a lot of people don't tell you is that it's a physically tough week of exams, so it is very helpful if you have a partner that is able to do all the cooking/cleaning during that week so you can focus on just getting through them.

r_seal

Might be a handy excuse - can I use it the months leading up to the exams aswell?

NoQuarter

r_seal wrote: »

Might be a handy excuse - can I use it the months leading up to the exams aswell?

You want to be a BL, now is the time to try out your advocacy skills.

r_seal

In relation to say buying past copies of Kings Inns manuals from Griffith College or Indo - I did my LLB at Griffith - would the manuals be similar to these notes which I still have?

I presume they're more geared towards the entrance exam itself?

In other words should I shell out for them??

FreudianSlippers

r_seal wrote: »

In relation to say buying past copies of Kings Inns manuals from Griffith College or Indo - I did my LLB at Griffith - would the manuals be similar to these notes which I still have?

I presume they're more geared towards the entrance exam itself?

In other words should I shell out for them??

No, your Griffith LLB notes won't be sufficient.

I did my prep course at Indo (it was their first year offering it) and having spoken to people who did it at Griffith, I think I was right going to Indo. But that's a good few years ago now, so I'd ask around about who is better at the moment.

I'd say the manuals are fairly similar at this stage.

NoQuarter

The manuals will be similar between indo and Griffith, after all the law is the law.

Agreed with the above, dump your Griffith notes and start fresh, make your own notes from the manuals. You have the time and making notes from scratch helps you go through the whole course in full detail. No shortcuts.

r_seal

I have a set of 2009 manuals - do you think they'd be sufficent?

NoQuarter

No way.

You'll get last years for 40 a pop. Get fe1 manuals rather than using 2009 manuals (again, the law is the law). But with fe1 manuals just thoroughly compare the syllabus. Would you honestly trust a manual that was 6 years old? 1 year is fine (maybe 2 years with some extra research into new cases) but not 6.

It's all about peace of mind. If you get last years manuals then you know you have everything you need. Even if there was a big case since then, you wont lose much marks for not including it. If I was using manuals from 2009 I would be worried about accuracy for the next 8 months until the exam!

r_seal

That was my thinking - had arranged to buy the most recent manuals on Adverts (€250 ) - then a friend offered me their 09 one"s - think I'd be the same worrying I'd missed something!

clieveragh

how is the studying coming along, I tried to sit the exams in 2009 thought I did okay, but I failed by a couple of percent didn't have enough for compensating, its one tough week, I think the best thing is to practise questions book closed etc timed, its a lot of work. I am tinking of sitting them one last time, trying to make sense of having a law degree that I haven't been able to use. Did you manage to get up to date notes etc?

FreudianSlippers

clieveragh wrote: »

how is the studying coming along, I tried to sit the exams in 2009 thought I did okay, but I failed by a couple of percent didn't have enough for compensating, its one tough week, I think the best thing is to practise questions book closed etc timed, its a lot of work. I am tinking of sitting them one last time, trying to make sense of having a law degree that I haven't been able to use. Did you manage to get up to date notes etc?

Obviously just my opinion, but the KI exams are less about showing how much you can remember and more about showing that you fundamentally understand the underlying law. You can actually get by in the exams by showing you understand the question.

I think that's a tricky bit that people aren't ready for when coming from undergrad law where regurgitation of case law and facts often gets people through

hullaballoo

I agree with FS but what I would add is that the exams are, for some strange reason, set by academics. For that reason, you will need an element of academic ability to pass these exams alongside the ability to apply the law in a practical sense.

DuchessduJour

Considering doing these too, just having a quick look through the syllabi now and wondering if it'd be ok to study pretty much exclusively from primary materials (the cases and articles listed, maybe with some recourse to textbooks) instead of using the manuals? I know it's probably a bit of a stupid question, just wondering if anyone used that approach and was successful because I have no experience of how the exams are marked or what exactly they're looking for!

NoQuarter

DuchessduJour wrote: »

Considering doing these too, just having a quick look through the syllabi now and wondering if it'd be ok to study pretty much exclusively from primary materials (the cases and articles listed, maybe with some recourse to textbooks) instead of using the manuals? I know it's probably a bit of a stupid question, just wondering if anyone used that approach and was successful because I have no experience of how the exams are marked or what exactly they're looking for!

Knock yourself out. I suggest signing up for the 2017 exams because it will take that long doing it that way.

DuchessduJour

NoQuarter wrote: »

Knock yourself out. I suggest signing up for the 2017 exams because it will take that long doing it that way.

I might have to do that anyway, given how bleak my funding options look at the moment :pac: Cool, I was thinking maybe the manuals had additional commentary or were structured in such a way that they were pretty much a necessity so good to know anyway! Thanks

NoQuarter

DuchessduJour wrote: »

I might have to do that anyway, given how bleak my funding options look at the moment :pac: Cool, I was thinking maybe the manuals had additional commentary or were structured in such a way that they were pretty much a necessity so good to know anyway! Thanks

I would say they are necessary. I mean, yes, it would be possible to pass without them but I would dread that task. The sheer amount of reading you'd have to do any decipher judgments yourself. You'll likely miss most of the points in the cases or struggle to understand a lot of the concepts in the articles.

Funding will certainly be a problem if you mess it up and waste 600 euro on a repeat.

And the most important point, if you cant afford to pay a couple of hundred for manuals, you can genuinely forget going the barrister route, you haven't a hope of surviving. You'll need a solid source of income for at least the next 5 years from where you are now to even stand a chance.

r_seal

clieveragh wrote: »

how is the studying coming along, I tried to sit the exams in 2009 thought I did okay, but I failed by a couple of percent didn't have enough for compensating, its one tough week, I think the best thing is to practise questions book closed etc timed, its a lot of work. I am tinking of sitting them one last time, trying to make sense of having a law degree that I haven't been able to use. Did you manage to get up to date notes etc?

Sorry I'm only replying now - I was away for the month of January. I've the holiday blues now which aren't being helped by the thoughts of getting started on this!!

pmrey

Hi everyone, I am also considering sitting the exams in August. I did sit them once before in 2010 and lets just say my lack of preparation cost me dearly!! I was wondering if anyone on here would be interested in forming a study group? I have always found that I do better when working through stuff with people than when left to my own devices ðŸ˜. I am.Dublin based and would happily join forces with another Kings Inns hopeful...

r_seal

Hi pmrey, I actually prefer to study on my own - especially with the hours I work now. Best of luck with the study..

r_seal

Chancing my arm here but does anybody happen to have listed out what topics came up in what years - it would save me time going through all the recent past papers!!

ddemon

Hi All,

Going to do the exams this August. Has anyone got any idea where they might get a hold of recent 2nd hand manuals? I know older ones might suffice for contract and tort but constitutional might be a bit trickier looking at the syllabus for last year.

Cheers

r_seal

Got mine on adverts.

r_seal

F#*k there's a lot in constitutional!!

NoQuarter

r_seal wrote: »

F#*k there's a lot in constitutional!!

Don't forget the Preamble :pac:

r_seal

Re evidence exam - would I be right in saying that although The Rule Against Narrative has been asked 9 out of the last 13 years, that its not on the syllabus this year??

r_seal

Does the decision in Gormley/White (that a prisoner cannot be questioned until he has spoken to a solicitor) not just reaffirm the position in O'Brien??

Anything said prior to prisoner speaking to solicitor would be inadmissible??

r_seal

If somebody could help me out please - contract tomorrow and I'm panicking. Can't see the answer clearly here. Can someone advise please.

Q 1. Larry was a University historian who over a lifetime had collected a vast array of
historical documents as part of his research. Most of these historical records concerned
the local history of where he was living. As he was retiring, he negotiated a deal with
the local historical association whereby he would, over time, donate his substantial
historical records to the association provided that they undertook to ensure that the
public had access to them. In an exchange of letters, the association promised Larry
that they would put these documents on display to the public with an appropriate
recognition of Larry’s contribution. Accordingly, the association purchased a small
property which it began to convert into a local museum which would house these
documents. On completion of the building work, Larry began to transfer some of his
records to the association.
Unfortunately Larry had only transferred about 1/3 of his records when he passed away.
As beneficiaries, Larry’s family began looking through what was left, and they realised
that some of the documents were of considerable value, particularly certain records of
national historical significance. Larry’s family now refuses to hand over the remainder of
the documents to the association, claiming that they were not legally obliged to continue
with Larry’s donation. The association has so far spent €100,000 in the expectation that
they would be displaying all of Larry’s documents.
Advise the association of its position under the law of contract.

Steve456

r_seal wrote: »

Q 1. Larry was a University historian who over a lifetime had collected a vast array of historical documents as part of his research. Most of these historical records concerned the local history of where he was living. As he was retiring, he negotiated a deal with the local historical association whereby he would, over time, donate his substantial historical records to the association provided that they undertook to ensure that the public had access to them. In an exchange of letters, the association promised Larry that they would put these documents on display to the public with an appropriate recognition of Larry’s contribution. Accordingly, the association purchased a small property which it began to convert into a local museum which would house these documents. On completion of the building work, Larry began to transfer some of his records to the association.

Unfortunately Larry had only transferred about 1/3 of his records when he passed away. As beneficiaries, Larry’s family began looking through what was left, and they realised that some of the documents were of considerable value, particularly certain records of national historical significance. Larry’s family now refuses to hand over the remainder of the documents to the association, claiming that they were not legally obliged to continue with Larry’s donation. The association has so far spent €100,000 in the expectation that they would be displaying all of Larry’s documents. Advise the association of its position under the law of contract.

Issues:

1/ Is there a valid contract?
Agreement - looks OK
Consideration - Yes
Intent to contract - can be presumed
Certainty - that's not clear (because L apparently hasn't committed himself to any particular time for performance)

So there is a contract IF the court can be persuaded that L's promise can be objectively read as a promise, eg by implying that he would transfer the docs in a reasonable time.

2/ Assuming there's a contract, what are the association's remedies?

Expectation damages?: the association would have to prove loss (loss is not obvious from what you've been told)
Reliance loss: the association have certainly suffered a loss relying on L's promise
Specific performance: will be available if the court believes that damages alone would not adequately compensate the association.

r_seal

Thanks!! Night before worries!