Any ideas about a sick beretta 391

Tikka391

The gun was shooting fine weekend before last came home cleaned the barrel gave the outside a wipe, put away nothing thought of it, took it out Saturday fired shot but its not sending second cartridge from magizine.
It not like it's trying to cycle and getting stuck before it's going into chamber, it's not even leaving mag. The cartridge goes in no prob and when you press the breech bolt release button to empty mag manually they fly out no bother. Tuck it apart and can't see anything to obvious all looks same as ever.
Any one have any ideas please let me know.
Many Thanks.

Cass

Most issues i've seen surrounding feeding issues always relate back to fouling, especially when the gun worked perfectly shortly beforehand.

Check the mag, the springs, lube the carriage with good lube, etc. Give it all a serious scrubbing, right back to the basics, and then rebuild using proper lube on all the parts. If this does not solve it then it could be a mechanical issue, but i'd be surprised as you said it was working fine.

Tikka391

Cass wrote: »

Most issues i've seen surrounding feeding issues always relate back to fouling, especially when the gun worked perfectly shortly beforehand.

Check the mag, the springs, lube the carriage with good lube, etc. Give it all a serious scrubbing, right back to the basics, and then rebuild using proper lube on all the parts. If this does not solve it then it could be a mechanical issue, but i'd be surprised as you said it was working fine.

Thanks Cass I'll give it a strip and thoroughly clean tomorrow and hope for the best, because I realy need that second shot.

.243

Check the gas ports in the barrel,normally if they are clogged not enough gas from the fired cartridge is reaching the action to perform a full cycle

Tikka391

.243 wrote: »

Check the gas ports in the barrel,normally if they are clogged not enough gas from the fired cartridge is reaching the action to perform a full cycle

I was thinking the same thing but when i took it apart it all looked ok.
The mag springs seem fine as I said the cartridge goes in and comes out manually no bother. I'll strip again and look over her again.

Wadi14

clean it, lubricate the action very well, and check the carrier to ensure it is not catching on the shell

Tikka391

Wadi14 wrote: »

clean it, lubricate the action very well, and check the carrier to ensure it is not catching on the shell

Yea but the fired cartridge ejects and ejection port closes as normal but the next cartridge doesn't move from mag

Cass

Any debris, rust, fouling in the mag can cause the cartridge to stick. You really need to be able to see/watch the underside of the gun when it's fired to see where the problem lies.

Sounds like either something sticking or the carriage not dropping fully to allow the next cartridge to properly cycle. A handy tip might be to load two rounds, have someone with a video camera, hold the gun upside down with the barrel pointed in a safe direction/backstop, then fire the gun. Video the cycling process and then watch it back in slow motion to see if it sticks.

Tikka391

Cass wrote: »

Any debris, rust, fouling in the mag can cause the cartridge to stick. You really need to be able to see/watch the underside of the gun when it's fired to see where the problem lies.

Sounds like either something sticking or the carriage not dropping fully to allow the next cartridge to properly cycle. A handy tip might be to load two rounds, have someone with a video camera, hold the gun upside down with the barrel pointed in a safe direction/backstop, then fire the gun. Video the cycling process and then watch it back in slow motion to see if it sticks.

Do you mean the carrier not coming down fully and cartridge leaving mag is jamming against instead of sliding on to it and then fed up?

Cass

Could be.

There are a number of parts and reasons for it not feeding. If you say it's ejecting fine then the problam may not be the spring. So if the spring is working then something else is preventing it from cycling. The first thing i'd do, as said above, is scrub the crap out of the mag. Does not matter if it looks clean or you think it is, do it anyway.

The next issue then is, is the carrier dropping enough to allow the next cartridge from the mag to come out and be "lifted" to the chamber. If not then there could be an issue with the carrier in terms of damage, dirt/fouling, weak spring, etc. However i would be cautious about removing the carrier/trigger unit unless you know what you are at as the plunger is held in place with a rivet.

Tikka391

Cass wrote: »

Could be.

There are a number of parts and reasons for it not feeding. If you say it's ejecting fine then the problam may not be the spring. So if the spring is working then something else is preventing it from cycling. The first thing i'd do, as said above, is scrub the crap out of the mag. Does not matter if it looks clean or you think it is, do it anyway.

The next issue then is, is the carrier dropping enough to allow the next cartridge from the mag to come out and be "lifted" to the chamber. If not then there could be an issue with the carrier in terms of damage, dirt/fouling, weak spring, etc. However i would be cautious about removing the carrier/trigger unit unless you know what you are at as the plunger is held in place with a rivet.

You see the cartridge is not leaving mag at all, if the carrier was up a little yes it would block exit of cartridge from mag but it's not even getting that far, but when I press breech bolt release button to unload they fly out no prob.

Cass

I just need to ask some questions because i'm trying to paint a mental picture as i cannot see the gun.

The rounds come out when you unload using the bolt release? - If so then we can assume the mag spring is fine.
When you fire the first shot the second round never leaves the mag? - If so then something is stopping it.
If the gun is clean, properly clean, then it's a mechanical issue.

Quick question to you. Have you tried to cycle the gun manually? Without firing? Place two rounds in the mag, none in the chamber. Hit the release on the underside at the rear of the carrier that allows for the manual cycling of a round using the bolt. Cycle the round. Does the round leave the mag, and does the carrier catch it? If not it could be the carrie is slightly twisted. Too little to see, but enough to cause a problem.

Tikka391

Cass wrote: »

I just need to ask some questions because i'm trying to paint a mental picture as i cannot see the gun.

The rounds come out when you unload using the bolt release? - If so then we can assume the mag spring is fine.
When you fire the first shot the second round never leaves the mag? - If so then something is stopping it.
If the gun is clean, properly clean, then it's a mechanical issue.

Quick question to you. Have you tried to cycle the gun manually? Without firing? Place two rounds in the mag, none in the chamber. Hit the release on the underside at the rear of the carrier that allows for the manual cycling of a round using the bolt. Cycle the round. Does the round leave the mag, and does the carrier catch it? If not it could be the carrie is slightly twisted. Too little to see, but enough to cause a problem.

Yes when I press button under carrier nothing happens no movement from cartridge. I think your getting warm!!!

Cass

Right so.

One more test. Empty the gun. Make sure the mag, and chamber are empty. Cycle the bolt. The carrier should be in the slightly raised position. Once you are 100% sure it's empty cycle the bolt and dry fire it. The carrier should drop down to it's "ready"" position so it can get the next cartridge. Does it do this?

If it does then we know the carrier is not the problem. After that i have one more idea and i'm all out. The carrier release (little button underneath the gun at the carrier) can be operated manually, or automatically. When you fire a shot there is a system of mechanics in the trigger assembly that automatically pull this carrier release back into the trigger assembly (as if you pushed it manually) which drops the carrier and "activates" the cartridge relase. Did you notice when you load a cartridge it goes in so far and then "catches". If you feel around inside the mag (empty of course) you feel a little latch. This holds the cartridge in place until it is cycled. If this is not releasing when fired then the problem may be in the trigger mechanism as it releases when you manually release the cartridges as proven when you unload the gun.

Wadi14

the only thing I can add to Cass's last post is, even if the carrier is operating as it should, check it to really make sure its not twisted bent slightly,

Tikka391

Cass wrote: »

Right so.

One more test. Empty the gun. Make sure the mag, and chamber are empty. Cycle the bolt. The carrier should be in the slightly raised position. Once you are 100% sure it's empty cycle the bolt and dry fire it. The carrier should drop down to it's "ready"" position so it can get the next cartridge. Does it do this?

If it does then we know the carrier is not the problem. After that i have one more idea and i'm all out. The carrier release (little button underneath the gun at the carrier) can be operated manually, or automatically. When you fire a shot there is a system of mechanics in the trigger assembly that automatically pull this carrier release back into the trigger assembly (as if you pushed it manually) which drops the carrier and "activates" the cartridge relase. Did you notice when you load a cartridge it goes in so far and then "catches". If you feel around inside the mag (empty of course) you feel a little latch. This holds the cartridge in place until it is cycled. If this is not releasing when fired then the problem may be in the trigger mechanism as it releases when you manually release the cartridges as proven when you unload the gun.

Thanks Cass I'll have to look In the morning,if I rattle around with the gun safe any more this night She'll put me out with the dogs.
Thanks a mill

Tikka391

Wadi14 wrote: »

the only thing I can add to Cass's last post is, even if the carrier is operating as it should, check it to really make sure its not twisted bent slightly,

Will do thanks

Cass

Wadi14 wrote: »

the only thing I can add to Cass's last post is, even if the carrier is operating as it should, check it to really make sure its not twisted bent slightly,

Heh, heh. Went through that too ........................

Cass wrote: »

Does the round leave the mag, and does the carrier catch it? If not it could be the carrier is slightly twisted. Too little to see, but enough to cause a problem.

Been thinking about this, this morning and i'm genuinely out of ideas. If none of the above solve it or identify the problem then it's off to a gunsmith. Very hard to identify a problem when you're guessing over the internet. Like all problems if you can actually see the gun you might spot something immediately.

Tikka391

Cass wrote: »

Heh, heh. Went through that too ........................

Been thinking about this, this morning and i'm genuinely out of ideas. If none of the above solve it or identify the problem then it's off to a gunsmith. Very hard to identify a problem when you're guessing over the internet. Like all problems if you can actually see the gun you might spot something immediately.

Well Cass just got gun now to have an other look. I did what you said re the carrier I pressec the button under it and it came 99% of the way into position, when I pressed there was a tiny movement but I just taped the carrier with my finger and bingo!! It moved the last 1% and cartridge flew from mag. Did this a few more times and working now. I'm mad busy now getting ready for tonight but tomorrow will give it the mother and father of a strip and clean.
Thanks very much for all your help.

Cass

Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

that means the carrier is not dropping the entire way to allow smooth loading of the next cartridge from the mag. The simple, and hopefully only, cause is fouling. A good clean will sort it out. Worse case scenario the carrier is slightly bent/twisted or not aligned in which case it may need repair or replacement. They can simply wear out over time.

Removing the trigger assembly is not impossible, but does require some finesse, and a lot of attention to detail. I've used this guide over the years and it's pretty good.

zeissman

My mate also had feeding issues with his 391. He looked into it and learned that it was a common problem with the straight carrier on the 391 models and was advised to replace it with a carrier from a 390 model. He done this and it works perfect now.
If all else fails you could try this.

ben 11

I found this shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=101242 helpful. I never tried the manuals but his descriptions of cleaning, dis-assembly and assembly is excellent.
I can't url the link (maybe somebody else can) but just copy and paste it into Google and it should work

Cass

ben 11 wrote: »

I found this shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=101242 helpful. I never tried the manuals but his descriptions of cleaning, dis-assembly and assembly is excellent.
I can't url the link (maybe somebody else can) but just copy and paste it into Google and it should work

Done already:

Cass wrote: »

I've used this guide over the years and it's pretty good.

Tikka391

Thanks lads for all your help. I have the gun a good 10 years and this Is the first issue i ever had with it. But in saying that I hope to get a new gun in the summer.

Wadi14

You can bend the carrier slightly at the front if its a straight one it might sort it, it will leave the leading edge lower and the cartridge slides along it easier.

Tikka391

Wadi14 wrote: »

You can bend the carrier slightly at the front if its a straight one it might sort it, it will leave the leading edge lower and the cartridge slides along it easier.

Thanks I did a little tweaking to carrier I'll see how it works the weekend